New 4K laser projectors from Sony or JVC. When?

[betty boop]

15 minutes ago, oztheatre said:

I had 2 760's, one went straight back, lens was so bad it was unwatchable, possibly dropped on it's head by courier, 2nd one better but still not even as good as a jvc x35, even my epson 9400 has a better lens which is insanity considering the price difference.

thats no good, concurs with franks expernve with the 760/870 ...

 

16 minutes ago, oztheatre said:

Al, do you know much about the tone mapping coming out on the new marantz receivers? sounds good but unsure of the depth it goes to? Maybe mobs like marantz will pick up the beans and get this sorted?

dont know, haven heard but will check around  sounds interesting indeed.

[betty boop]

36 minutes ago, oztheatre said:

I just hope they're bright enough this time round?

I do love the Sony motion, it's the best thing they do imo.

are they updating the 270es maybe a 290es as that needs more output, an iris ! wide colour gamut, not sure if they are dropping price on that too ? 

[franin]

6 hours ago, oztheatre said:

I had 2 760's, one went straight back, lens was so bad it was unwatchable, possibly dropped on it's head by courier, 2nd one better but still not even as good as a jvc x35, even my epson 9400 has a better lens which is insanity considering the price difference.

 

Al, do you know much about the tone mapping coming out on the new marantz receivers? sounds good but unsure of the depth it goes to? Maybe mobs like marantz will pick up the beans and get this sorted?

 

 

I had to go through 3 Richard, fist one powered up on the day I got it and there was dust spots on top left of screen only seen when image is dark. The second one the lens couldn’t focus, the third a dust spot again seen regardless what scene was on. All of the boxes looked bad ripped etc. I wasn’t happy. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by franin

[lucmor444]

22 hours ago, franin said:

The question is wether Sony has updated their SXRD Panels with these new models? 

If that is still a problem with the Sonys then I wouldn't go near them.

[oztheatre]

3 minutes ago, lucmor444 said:

If that is still a problem with the Sonys then I wouldn't go near them.

Why they pulled out of the commercial cinema market, they had to replace the panels every 12 months.

[Mobe1969]

The marantz tone mapping will be interesting? I'd buy one if it was great. But I'd still like a laser projector. And I'm not interested in the z1 at all.

[wooferocau]

31 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said:

And I'm not interested in the z1 at all.

Your loss.

[oztheatre]

29 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said:

The marantz tone mapping will be interesting? I'd buy one if it was great. But I'd still like a laser projector. And I'm not interested in the z1 at all.

Why laser though? just the price of lamps? A good lamp based projector is heaps cheap than it's laser competitor.

Then you have 'quality of laser' issues no doubt. The Z1 has a stellar laser setup hence it's price tag.

[Mobe1969]

On 15/08/2020 at 5:28 PM, oztheatre said:

Why laser though? just the price of lamps? A good lamp based projector is heaps cheap than it's laser competitor.

Then you have 'quality of laser' issues no doubt. The Z1 has a stellar laser setup hence it's price tag.

More the stability/constance, no dimming with use. But more to the point from an environmental viewpoint, I don't understand why lamp projectors are still made/allowed when other manufacturers are doing laser projectors cheaper, so it isn't a lack of options or even cost. It is in my books inexcusable.

[TP1]

On 13/08/2020 at 6:26 PM, Mobe1969 said:

It'd be a bigger shock for 870 owners. No successor, and even the current firmware and capabilities are below the 760, and no firmware update since way behind the last 760 firmware. I'd be asking myself why I paid the extra 10k...

 

Sony released  the dynamic iris firmware for the 760  after it was developed for the 870.  If they follow the same cycle,  the 870 should get a major update later this year or early next year.

[TP1]

On 14/08/2020 at 1:00 PM, franin said:

I had to go through 3 Richard, fist one powered up on the day I got it and there was dust spots on top left of screen only seen when image is dark. The second one the lens couldn’t focus, the third a dust spot again seen regardless what scene was on. All of the boxes looked bad ripped etc. I wasn’t happy. 

No excuse for faulty PJ's at that price point.     However, Sony does swap projectors if there  are faults with them, unlike JVC.  Sony service for projectors  is handled by Sony Pro division which means dedicated techs all over the country  with a  level of service demanded by professional customers.  

[MrC]

On 15/08/2020 at 3:28 PM, oztheatre said:

A good lamp based projector is heaps cheap than it's laser competitor.

Spot on Richard.  I am not sure why there is all this clamour for laser projectors.  Perhaps there is some thought that "laser" projectors must be better than what we have now ....

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by MrC
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[TP1]

On 14/08/2020 at 3:15 PM, lucmor444 said:

If that is still a problem with the Sonys then I wouldn't go near them.

It used to be a problem for JVC as well - but modern projectors using LCD  panels have had the issues sorted for quite a while.

[TP1]

On 14/08/2020 at 3:19 PM, oztheatre said:

Why they pulled out of the commercial cinema market, they had to replace the panels every 12 months.

 

The panels were designed  to be replaced periodically  under Sony's service agreements. No manufacturer has an LCD panel that can withstand such massive doses of UV radiation and heat  over the longer term and this  was factored into the deals struck with cinema operators.  Sony Pictures funded the  service agreements with the operators to assist in gaining market share  for Sony Digital Cinema projectors. The market is dominated by DLP and  the Sony solution although effective in terms of  picture quality, is simply too expensive for the market to bear. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by TP1
typo

[franin]

42 minutes ago, TP1 said:

No excuse for faulty PJ's at that price point.     However, Sony does swap projectors if there  are faults with them, unlike JVC.  Sony service for projectors  is handled by Sony Pro division which means dedicated techs all over the country  with a  level of service demanded by professional customers.  

Most definitely there service is top notch. Unfortunately it wasn't meant to be for me.

[oztheatre]

16 minutes ago, TP1 said:

 

The panels were designed  to be replaced periodically  under Sony's service agreements. No manufacturer has an LCD panel that can withstand such massive doses of UV radiation and heat  over the longer term and this  was factored into the deals struck with cinema operators.  Sony Pictures funded the  service agreements with the operators to assist in gaining market share  for Sony Digital Cinema projectors. The market is dominated by DLP and  the Sony solution although effective in terms of  picture quality, is simply too expensive for the market to bear. 

That is a better explanation, thanks for the info.

[cwt]

17 minutes ago, MrC said:

Spot on Richard.  I am not sure why there is all this clamour for laser projectors.  Perhaps there is some thought that "laser" projectors must be better than what we have now ....

Both types have their pluses ;like easy globe replacement or less mercury poisoning and instant on . For anyone who wants better UHD bluray playback its good comparing an optoma uhd65 with the laser version of the projector  one has  3,000 ANSI lumens   and the other has  2200 ANSI lumens 

and one has a better % of dci-p3 for the uhd colour gamut ; so horses for courses.

 

This equates with the comments here ;   https://www.projectorpeople.com/resources/laser-projectors.asp

Quote

 laser-based projection offers longer lasting brightness, lower maintenance and improved color and contrast over similar lamp-based models.

 

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, cwt said:

Both types have their pluses ;like easy globe replacement or less mercury poisoning and instant on . For anyone who wants better UHD bluray playback its good comparing an optoma uhd65 with the laser version of the projector  one has  3,000 ANSI lumens   and the other has  2200 ANSI lumens 

and one has a better % of dci-p3 for the uhd colour gamut ; so horses for courses.

I dont agree with this cwt as seen the optoma in person and there is no ways id spend money on it ! 

[cwt]

1 minute ago, betty boop said:

I dont agree with this cwt as seen the optoma in person and there is no ways id spend money on it ! 

Neither would I Al ; as have said in the past being a dlp it has got poor black levels and possible colour wheel issues . Was just comparing the same model using a globe vs the same using a laser . The improvement with laser is across the board with any ce's projector ;heres another link to illustrate what Ime getting at ; 

https://dibaustralia.com.au/dib-australia-faq/lamp-vs-laser-projection/

 

Quote

Laser projectors also have greater contrast than lamp projectors. Blacks on laser projectors are much stronger as the LEDs just don’t fire on black sections of the screen. Lamp projectors need to project no matter what, meaning blacks are never as dark as they could be.

Another relevant one to light output shows how laser being much more coherent than led [ and globe ] can only help with uhd and nit output 

 https://www.barco.com/en/news/2017-04-05-the-difference-between-led-and-laser-projectors

 

Hope this explains where Ime coming from 

[Mobe1969]

12 hours ago, MrC said:

Spot on Richard.  I am not sure why there is all this clamour for laser projectors.  Perhaps there is some thought that "laser" projectors must be better than what we have now ....

 

 

Just on the environmental level alone I honestly find it pretty much unconscionable, especially as there are better alternatives that in reality don't cost much more. It is like if peolle were still making CRT TV's these days. Back when there were no options, no worries.  Or incandescent lights, who'd buy them over led? But holding on to ancient ideas especially when they are environmentally toxic is just bizarre.

[oztheatre]

On 17/08/2020 at 5:32 AM, Mobe1969 said:

More the stability/constance, no dimming with use. But more to the point from an environmental viewpoint, I don't understand why lamp projectors are still made/allowed when other manufacturers are doing laser projectors cheaper, so it isn't a lack of options or even cost. It is in my books inexcusable.

Cheap lasers too no doubt. At some point we'll all be talking about the 'quality of laser light sources'.

The blue escent laser diode setup for example is no doubt superior to cheaper options.

 

but if they can't nail the optics side of things then 4k, 8k, 16k means absolutely nothing at all. A 2K projector with a stellar lens will destroy a 4k with a sub standard lens. No decent lens = no 4k projector. 

 

Given TV's outsell projectors by perhaps 300:1 I know where I'd be pointing my finger. 

[betty boop]

I dont buy the environment argument sorry, reasons already given in this thread. a 20,000 hour expensive and complex laser that have to throw away vs a little globe doesnt count. and i know someone here still using his jvc hd1 and just keep changing the little bulb in it as needs, plenty folk still using epson LCDS from decade +  prior... also the CRT comparison doesnt apply here ... CRTs were actually from a pq better than LCD. even the projectors .... it was just the size and power consumption and issues they had. we dont see that sort of thing with lamp projectors heck its not like my JVC is a energy guzzler in fact uses comparable to less power than equivalent light output laser projector too... so environmentally am ahead there already ...

 

for all the reasons someone wont buy a z1  says all really...

 

people buy things when makes sense when viable. laser not got to that point for most folks. and am not talking the throw away (instant landfill ebay laser projectors) am talking the quality ones that still cost a small fortune vs a lamp alternative. 

 

the fact there are folk lamenting laser availability when they exist and are available right now is example of just this....people buy things makes sense(we are All different- different things makes sense different people). manufacturers bring things out that is viable from business perspective to them.

[TP1]

I think globes will be a thing of the past in projectors if prices of laser drop significantly. With laser you can get better uniformity of light across the screen, colours that really pop and a more stable flicker- free image. Of course the fact that there is no  noticeable light reduction from month to month or year to year is reason enough in my book to make it attractive. Other things like  instant start up and shutdown are bonuses.

 

However, I don't understand the pricing premium  that Sony and JVC demand for laser home cinema projectors  compared to other manufacturers, which I think is real reason anybody would resist the temptation to  getting one of their projectors  with a laser light source.

 

 

[wooferocau]

Yes, once you use a Laser based projector, there,s  no gong back to Bulb !! .......the stability of Laser has a huge benefit to the image!!    Stability as in NO micro "Flicker" associated with a Bulb light source ...not to mention overall brightness level stability.  

 

Laser lifespan is misunderstood...... My Z1/RS4500 for example ....LOW 40K hrs MED 30K hrs HIGH 20hrs  to half life.   BUT that is based on the Laser running 100% full output. Unless you were to project a 100% IRE ( white ) image  for 20K hrs the Laser is never 100% output .

Under normal use the level varies as does your content, factor in Dynamic Dimming and the Laser is rarely anywhere near 100% output.   I was going to purchase a spare Laser Assembly for my Z1/RS4500  the tech from JVC laughed and said i would never in my lifetime exceed the life of the Laser assembly in my Z1/RS4500 !!

 

I keep in touch with a Z1/RS4500 user i know had one of the first  Z1/RS4500 units released.... he has now over 7K hrs ( all HIGH Laser) on his and has readings from new......NO light output drop in 7K hrs !!!

 

 

[wooferocau]

2 hours ago, TP1 said:

 

 

However, I don't understand the pricing premium  that Sony and JVC demand for laser home cinema projectors  compared to other manufacturers, which I think is real reason anybody would resist the temptation to  getting one of their projectors  with a laser light source.

 

 

I do not know about Sony but i DO know the Laser assembly in the Z1/RS4500 ...The Z1/RS4500 was built with no compromises..... it has redundancy built in  with extra laser modules so that in the event that some laser diodes were to fail it will bring the redundant units online so the output is maintained over the duration of its life.

The cooling unit is also VERY substantial  and again its has redundancy built in.

Edited August 23, 2020 by wooferocau