HIgher end 7.1 Processor Options with 4k - ideas and/or for sale options

[roachy]

I'll put my hand up and highly recommend the Anthem AVM60. Coming from Onkyo and Marantz with Audyssey, the ARC correction is another step above. Yes dual sub output is parellel but reading I've done suggests balancing dual subs before room correction can be preferable. It has worked well in my circumstance. Anthems distributor regularly have trade up offers bringing new price to mid $3ks, I picked mine up late last year under $3.5k with a trade in. 

[DTJ]

Thanks Roachy.

 

What Marantz units did you have?

 

Re the dual sub - I don't disagree with your thinking. I have balanced the 2 I have currently manually. However the ability to separately time align could be missed. Currently I am running a rear sub out of phase with the front. It has the best compromise at the main listening position, but is a primitive tool at best. I assume good room correction, that can mange dual subs, could improve this. This may not be an issue id the sub locations are symmetrical to the listening position.

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, roachy said:

I'll put my hand up and highly recommend the Anthem AVM60. Coming from Onkyo and Marantz with Audyssey, the ARC correction is another step above. Yes dual sub output is parellel but reading I've done suggests balancing dual subs before room correction can be preferable. It has worked well in my circumstance. Anthems distributor regularly have trade up offers bringing new price to mid $3ks, I picked mine up late last year under $3.5k with a trade in. 

yeah what did you run for audyssey and which units in marantz ?. because with xt32 and units that support dual subs, it really is treated discretely and then checking them together but all done by the system to integrate  it actually goes through exact step talking about  you dont have to go thorough manually with the methodology of using spl meter and listening and especially since spl meters are pretty innaccurate especially with sub bass levels. I've had two units denon and marantz now with dual subs actually flagship denon i had prior had 3 subs and couldn't be happier !  note i have run audyssey pro on these though, not the base audyssey and using the calibrated mic and kit so that could be a difference  I certainly found it good step forward over base audyssey.

[roachy]

2 hours ago, betty boop said:

yeah what did you run for audyssey and which units in marantz ?. because with xt32 and units that support dual subs, it really is treated discretely and then checking them together but all done by the system to integrate  it actually goes through exact step talking about  you dont have to go thorough manually with the methodology of using spl meter and listening and especially since spl meters are pretty innaccurate especially with sub bass levels. I've had two units denon and marantz now with dual subs actually flagship denon i had prior had 3 subs and couldn't be happier !  note i have run audyssey pro on these though, not the base audyssey and using the calibrated mic and kit so that could be a difference  I certainly found it good step forward over base audyssey.

Audyssey xt32 on both the Onkyo 5508 pre pro and Marantz 6013. Having said that I probably have my dual subs nicely matched due to running Audyssey. Made the process with ARC on the Anthem easier. I'm a lot happier with the sound out of the Anthem but was never unhappy previously. More of an incremental upgrade. I'm sure the OP would be more than happy with a Marantz pre pro. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by roachy
Typo

[roachy]

3 hours ago, DTJ said:

Thanks Roachy.

 

What Marantz units did you have?

 

Re the dual sub - I don't disagree with your thinking. I have balanced the 2 I have currently manually. However the ability to separately time align could be missed. Currently I am running a rear sub out of phase with the front. It has the best compromise at the main listening position, but is a primitive tool at best. I assume good room correction, that can mange dual subs, could improve this. This may not be an issue id the sub locations are symmetrical to the listening position.

Previously had an Onkyo 5508 pre pro then took my first step to Atmos with a Marantz 6013 receiver. Always preferred having a pre pro as have an active front stage and a power amp for other channels. Very nearly went for the Marantz 7703 pre pro but the deal I got on the Anthem was too good to pass up. I have my dual subs symmetrical at the front of the room

Edited May 11, 2020 by roachy
Additional info

[cwt]

3 hours ago, DTJ said:

Re the dual sub - I don't disagree with your thinking. I have balanced the 2 I have currently manually. However the ability to separately time align could be missed. Currently I am running a rear sub out of phase with the front. It has the best compromise at the main listening position, but is a primitive tool at best. I assume good room correction, that can mange dual subs, could improve this. This may not be an issue id the sub locations are symmetrical to the listening position.

Since speaker/sub integration is important [ and if your comfortable with the next tier up] it may pay to look at the bottom of the new HDA line from Arcam Darren -around 4.5k. The new AVR10 is more likely to get Dirac bass control than the NAD 778 [ based on the extra subscription to pay for it compared to other brands ] 

https://www.stereo.net.au/news/dirac-live-launches-bass-control-module

Being Arcam it will have the identical pre amp section as the dearer models ; just a/b amps rather than the fancier class G and fewer channels . Best to keep an eye on avs forum as to firmware upgrades to achieve stability ; its close .. Worth noting Arcam are doing the firmware for the JBL Synthesis SP55 as well

[xPLAYRZx]

8 hours ago, roachy said:

I'll put my hand up and highly recommend the Anthem AVM60. Coming from Onkyo and Marantz with Audyssey, the ARC correction is another step above. Yes dual sub output is parellel but reading I've done suggests balancing dual subs before room correction can be preferable. It has worked well in my circumstance. Anthems distributor regularly have trade up offers bringing new price to mid $3ks, I picked mine up late last year under $3.5k with a trade in. 

Another +1 for the AVM60.  I also have one of these in my system and I'm very happy with it.  I came from a long line of Marantz/Denon (Audyssey) and found ARC to be a significant improvement.  I also run dual sub woofers and find ARC to do any excellent job for both movies and music, the software offers ample options for fine tuning to your taste.  

 

Before purchasing, I did originally have concerns about 2 channel performance and was looking to include a separate preamp (like the Parasound P6) into my system but after calibrating the AVM60 I find it to be more than acceptable (to my ears) for 2 channel listening so have forgone the purchase of a separate preamp for that reason.

[Neilsy]

On 10/05/2020 at 2:31 PM, betty boop said:

oh wow this is going to be interesting ! you have a pretty awesome setup neilsy ! no doubt going to continue to do it justice  with the new setup ! should post a build thread if get the chance am sure it will be of interest to quite a few folk  

Thanks - I can squeeze 7.1 before a costly processor overhaul. May well start a build thread when my house build is a little further along...! Meanwhile, I won't hijack the thread..

[genkifd]

i currently run the Primare SP33 (non 4k) with Elektra Theatron 7. if you are more interested in movies i suggest not to go Primare route - has no room correction and primare is a music first company unlike most brands already mentioned above. 

 

If your music first with benefits of surround sound then Primare is awesome.  

[DTJ]

Thanks genkifd for the comments. I have probably moved away from the Primare now, i fact it has probably moved to the very bottom of my list, realistically is off the list.

Have been looking much closer into the various room corrections - and feeling they have become a must have on my list. Not surprisingly budget is growing as well in the process. I am getting sucked into the hole I was trying to avoid!. Atmos is also looking like a potential "sooner" rather than much later (if ever)  consideration for me now.

 

I might update my thinking in a few days time. I am just following up some options/info currently.

 

[genkifd]

No problems - previously owning a Denon receiver and now the Primare i dont miss room correction at all.

 

 

 

[betty boop]

3 hours ago, DTJ said:

Atmos is also looking like a potential "sooner" rather than much later (if ever)  consideration for me now.

Whatever invest in please make sure has 3D audio(atmos, Dts-x, auro3D) one of best things did in my setup. I wouldn’t upgrade to not include ! Would be a big miss ...

[DTJ]

Yes, I have added this to the list and am now looking at options that have Dirac Live (full) on board.

 

Out of interest, I have read of a lot of on bard up scalers to take advantage of additional speakers (when the source material is say 5.1 or 7.1).

Is the consensus that this can be done well, and the 3D audio set up is thus advantageous, when using older source material? Obviously the scaler in the processor would need to do this well for a good result.

[betty boop]

37 minutes ago, DTJ said:

Yes, I have added this to the list and am now looking at options that have Dirac Live (full) on board.

 

Out of interest, I have read of a lot of on bard up scalers to take advantage of additional speakers (when the source material is say 5.1 or 7.1).

Is the consensus that this can be done well, and the 3D audio set up is thus advantageous, when using older source material? Obviously the scaler in the processor would need to do this well for a good result.

i also personally wouldnt discount audyssey based processors, I have experienced in quite humble to flagship I am talking $250k+ home theatres and doing a fantastic job. dont limit your options unnecessarily...

 

all surround decoding dolby surround and DTS-neural X or auro3D up mix from even older sources. you will be amazed what can achieve from older 5.1 - 7.1 blu-rays which hare just truehd or its-hdma. you will be amazed even with humble sport and fta tv  

[betty boop]

I also want to add that it would be fundamentally wrong i think to purchase something just because of Eq ?

 

there are many good EQ systems out there, in fact there is good comment on these from many here in this thread be it Anthem's ARC, Dirac, audyssey there's also room perfect and such.

 

but still EQ is pretty much cherry on top. its not the cake or the icing. 

 

in hierarchy there is 

 

1. Room.... will make or break a severely crook room will not do much with Eq, will just try make best of a bad situation. one eq system vs other will just be different bad  

 

2. Treatments....essential it conditions the room so can make best of it.... makes up for some flaws of the room...

 

3. Positon or location of speakers and main listening position... this is making best of the room and get this wrong again EQ just trying to band aid fix....

 

4. measurements - key to getting setup right and only then EQ and really if the preceding steps are done right Eq in itself has very little to do.... its the cherry on top.... 

 

and this puts aside the quality of gear... just because rest including processor is basic doesn't mean an Eq system will suddenly transform.....

[DTJ]

Agreed. Exactly the reasons why Room correction and options like the Primare (with no eq on board) were not originally a concern.

The room correction I think I need to take more seriously as a "requirement" than I first assumed. At this point there is nothing I am considering that does not have eq on board. The Primare was probably the only one. However I think its video limitations are such that I can't justify it as a consideration.

[betty boop]

9 minutes ago, DTJ said:

Agreed. Exactly the reasons why Room correction and options like the Primare (with no eq on board) were not originally a concern.

The room correction I think I need to take more seriously as a "requirement" than I first assumed. At this point there is nothing I am considering that does not have eq on board. The Primare was probably the only one. However I think its video limitations are such that I can't justify it as a consideration.

id say EQ and current video (4kuhd) & current audio (3D codecs) are all par for course these days.. "requirements" as you say. whether a basic unit or "higher end" id just expect that these days.... especially since its been standard inclusion for most brands some 5-6 years now.... 

[genkifd]

all euro brands uptake on technology has always been slow. but their sound quality is on another level compared to the japnaese.

Edited May 12, 2020 by genkifd

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

I am a music first listener, IMO any half decent system will make movies sound great whether you have eq or not, music not so much.

 

It's been well documented that Audyssey doesn't do music well so id see no point buying anything with Audyssey if music was the focus.

 

Dirac is meant to be a music first eq option. I have been anti-eq for years and everything I listened too for years was as clean a signal as I could afford with no eq or tone controls to be seen for HT and 2ch (apart from sub eq) 

 

I now use Dirac for 2ch via a C658, started by equalising the full frequency 20hz-20khz expecting Dirac to automatically produce the perfect sound for my room (that's what the brochure said), that was false hope!

 

I now only eq under 100hz, enough to blend the subs and mains together, and its works exceptionally well for that.  The sound is so much better when the mids and highs are untouched and can sing the way nature intends them to. The time aligning between sub and speakers is probably the only reason I still own the C658, but I'm sure there are other ways to do that too. 

 

I'd probably say equalising the subs and time aligning them with the other speakers is more important that full eq and this can be had many ways, but I'm no expert.

[betty boop]

 

33 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

It's been well documented that Audyssey doesn't do music well so id see no point buying anything with Audyssey if music was the focus.

audyssey was designed to deliver cinema eq curve... but if do a search there are recommendations on what to do with music....

 

with music there are many roads to lead there, if trying to do it with av gear it will cost big bickies.... vs much smaller bickies can achieve same or significantly better with dedicated 2ch gear. i just run a dedicated 2ch sources, pre and power and sub for 2ch not using any EQ  and they are incorporated in my av rig for L&R sound stage and all gets EQ for cinema....

 

33 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

 now only eq under 100hz, enough to blend the subs and mains together, and its works exceptionally well for that.  The sound is so much better when the mids and highs are untouched and can sing the way nature intends them to. The time aligning between sub and speakers is probably the only reason I still own the C658, but I'm sure there are other ways to do that too. 

if just equalising subs many tool exist.... in fact even just what is built in some subs is quite good enough....

 

4 hours ago, genkifd said:

all euro brands uptake on technology has always been slow. but their sound quality is on another level compared to the japnaese.

 

its not about whether its a euro brand or not. more a case of resources and scale id suggest, I'll always remember a quote of SteveH a retailer in the us ... he sells all sorts of brands from marantz, lyndorf arcam etc etc...

 

"While the Marantz prepro's are NOT perfect, they are darn close to flawless. I wish I could say that for everyone. It's the difference between 200+ engineers and 2-3. It is what it is..."

 

he visited marantz in japan that is owned by sound united, they also own denon and classe. they are a massive group and have the resources to work on this stuff and the scale to spread the cost of R&D and tech across a larger base to make affordable. 

 

its not to be underestimated how complex these things are .... av processors..... and many brands especially with dwindling resources and scale (from falling volumes) just can't afford to invest the R&D or spread the costs for what will be something reasonable... reason why likely brands like cambridge audio dont seem to make avrs anymore. rotel not really player once was....we do have some new players though which is great but look at the costs of what they are... a good reason likes of mcintosh use basis of marantz for their processors... or for matter jbl synthesis uses arcam for software.... any surprise they swallowed up arcam... resources ... scale...

 

what am pleased about is the growing options out there in the av processors ... more the better i reckon. helps with choice... and good we have the choices we do... hopefully more in the mid to higher level as well though... we can't all be buying over $5k processors  especially the way they tend to get superseded and needing updates. I was lucky with my flagship processor i had last used some 8 years .... and it stayed at forefront. with upgrades/updates hardware and software from the maker.... current one is 5 years old... lets see if can take to 8-10  as long as keeps doing what i need it to do.... few more years might bring something worth upgrading/updating for...

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

with music there are many roads to lead there, if trying to do it with av gear it will cost big bickies.... vs much smaller bickies can achieve same or significantly better with dedicated 2ch gear. i just run a dedicated 2ch sources, pre and power and sub for 2ch not using any EQ  and they are incorporated in my av rig for L&R sound stage and all gets EQ for cinema....

yeh was thinking more concerts etc, not so much 2ch although my $2k CXR200 does a fine job with 2ch when bypassing the internal digital, but that's another story.

 

My main point was actually agreeing with your post, eq is an optional layer of cream, not the reason to purchase one processor over another.

[betty boop]

20 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

yeh was thinking more concerts etc, not so much 2ch although my $2k CXR200 does a fine job with 2ch when bypassing the internal digital, but that's another story.

yeah i seem to manage well with those too, in most cases a plethora of options for this kind of thing, so am sure most be able to find something works best as have in your case for different scenarios

 

21 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

My main point was actually agreeing with your post, eq is an optional layer of cream, not the reason to purchase one processor over another

greatly agreeing with what saying as well  all good   there are just so many paths ...

[gwurb]

Just to throw spanner in the works @DTJ: Where do you stand on height virtualisation?

 

I've read interesting things about it. The most common theme that I see is that atmos with dedicated speakers does a better job of giving 3D effects , BUT the height virtualisation brings an extra level of immersion for simpler 5.X and 7.X systems that isn't about 3D audio as such but more about being in the scene. If my memory proves me right one of the authors talked about how fly over and panning wasn't brilliant (in terms of being distinct, it was more 'loose') compared to actual speakers but the author felt enveloped in the sound. I remember that author writing that the immersion was 'softer' than actual speakers, and in a way that was great as it didn't highlight height of sound but instead made it feel seamless; more of a dome and less of sharp objects. I think the author was saying that in some ways it was easier to listen to height virtualisation than dedicated speakers for that reason.

 

Based on my reading height virtualisation has made the 'need to audition' list. I can't see myself having height speakers but the attraction of immersion is there.

Edited May 13, 2020 by gwurb

[Wood]

On 09/05/2020 at 1:39 PM, betty boop said:

misses critically on av7702mk2 and av7703 which are for all intensive purposes for OP identical... just later model with some trinkets ... all will take everything thrown at it from todays latest and best formats and sources

 

Except HDR10 and Dolby Vision. 
 

I’m going through a similar process as the OP, though not with a dedicated room. Have settled on 7.1 for now powered by Elektra. Want to upgrade Yamaha AVR to get better pre-outs, better room correction and future proof for 7.1 with Atmos. 
 

Have pretty well decided the Marantz 7704 is right in the sweet spot of price/features/performance. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Wood

[DTJ]

On 13/05/2020 at 8:01 PM, gwurb said:

Just to throw spanner in the works @DTJ: Where do you stand on height virtualisation?

 

I've read interesting things about it. The most common theme that I see is that atmos with dedicated speakers does a better job of giving 3D effects , BUT the height virtualisation brings an extra level of immersion for simpler 5.X and 7.X systems that isn't about 3D audio as such but more about being in the scene. If my memory proves me right one of the authors talked about how fly over and panning wasn't brilliant (in terms of being distinct, it was more 'loose') compared to actual speakers but the author felt enveloped in the sound. I remember that author writing that the immersion was 'softer' than actual speakers, and in a way that was great as it didn't highlight height of sound but instead made it feel seamless; more of a dome and less of sharp objects. I think the author was saying that in some ways it was easier to listen to height virtualisation than dedicated speakers for that reason.

 

Based on my reading height virtualisation has made the 'need to audition' list. I can't see myself having height speakers but the attraction of immersion is there.

Sorry - missed this post.

It was not on my agenda, but as I have looked deeper into options, it has been moved from a long way off to potentially much closer.

 

I am now looking at units that all have Atmos capability. Mostly processors with up to 16 channels, including dual subs.

I have also worked out how I can cable 4 or 6 ceiling speakers without too much pain. Also started thinking about ensuring additional space to house an extra separate amplifier.

 

So fair to say I have come round to it - somewhat more quickly than I planned.