High end AV Processor advice

[Mick08]

Hi All

 

I will shortly be in the market for an AV Processor. I’m currently leaning towards the Anthem AVM 90 but I’m open to looking at other suggestions.
I was also looking at the JBL SDP 58 which does seem like a very similar product to the Arcam AV41 but with logic 16 and there still seems to be some bugs with Dirac on those units that concerns me. The other option I’m looking at but will require more time saving $$ is the Lyngdorf MP 40.

 

my current speaker setup is a 7.2.4 using the Krix MX30 and Krix Phonix  for the surrounds and will likely add two more subs to the back of the room down the track so a processor that can process 4 subs independently is what I’m after rather than adding a miniDSP.

 

Thanks and I look forward to hearing from some knowledgeable people for some input

 

Regards Mick

[Guest]

I use the SDP-55 (same as the 58 except without the new HDMI board). I can confirm it's now bug free in normal operation and Dirac performs flawlessly. The only bug I am aware of that still exists is with Dante - but if you went down that path you'd be bypassing the DAC that Harman poured a lot of time and research into to make it sound so good. Logic16 might also still be a work in progress (from memory) but I don't use that either.

[Snoopy8]

While I like Anthem Room Correction, I think Dirac Live is now pulling ahead  with Bass Control and later this year, with Active Room Treatment, both optional add-ons. I suspect that with Bass Control, you may not need to add subs.

 

Bass Control is now available for the Arcam AV41 but not (yet?) the JBL SDP 55/58. 

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Bass Control is now available for the Arcam AV41 but not (yet?) the JBL SDP 55/58. 

 

It is available for JBL also.  With Arcam you need to purchase it, whereas with JBL it is included (being the premium product of the twq).

[lucmor444]

You may also want to consider the Marantz AV10. 

[Mick08]

14 hours ago, Marc said:

 

It is available for JBL also.  With Arcam you need to purchase it, whereas with JBL it is included (being the premium product of the twq).

 

14 hours ago, Marc said:

 

It is available for JBL also.  With Arcam you need to purchase it, whereas with JBL it is included (being the premium product of the twq).

 

 

Thanks Marc.

Good to hear that the bugs are now sorted. Do you think the JBL is worth the extra dollars over the Arcam?

[Mick08]

14 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

While I like Anthem Room Correction, I think Dirac Live is now pulling ahead  with Bass Control and later this year, with Active Room Treatment, both optional add-ons. I suspect that with Bass Control, you may not need to add subs.

 

Bass Control is now available for the Arcam AV41 but not (yet?) the JBL SDP 55/58. 

 

 

Thanks Snoop. Yeah, the active room treatment sounds really interesting.

 

Dirac is definitely looking at introducing some good stuff

[HifiH]

Have you considered the Core16 by storm Audio? 

[Snoopy8]

8 hours ago, Marc said:

It is available for JBL also.  With Arcam you need to purchase it, whereas with JBL it is included (being the premium product of the twq).

Curious to know your impressions of Bass Control.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Mick08 said:

Thanks Marc.

Good to hear that the bugs are now sorted. Do you think the JBL is worth the extra dollars over the Arcam?

 

I haven't personally compared both so I can't comment with actual hands-on experience. Obviously both units are made by Harman. As I mentioned previously, the JBL Synthesis is the premium brand of the two - so they refined and added extra features to the JBL, and critically, it has a better DAC implementation that is very, very good. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

Curious to know your impressions of Bass Control.

 

I implemented DLBC from the very start with this cinema build. I can say that it is super clean and concise. At the time of its release though, many of us had to use the +10dB Bass Harman curve due to it being very lean. I run two JBL Synthesis 18" subs. With that curve it came to life. Harman engineer's response to many of us talking about the "lean bass" was simply that "none of you have ever heard properly integrated bass" ... which perhaps there is some merit to. However, as firmware updates were released I was able to drop back down eventually settling on the +3dB Harman curve, and yes I love the bass now. It is unbelievably controlled and capable of massive swings when called upon. 

 

But do take this with a grain of salt though as I never heard this system/room without DLBC enabled.  

[BugPowderDust]

3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Curious to know your impressions of Bass Control.

I've also had some great recent experiences with DLBC on an Arcam AV41. I am beyond excited about what ART will bring. 

[Mick08]

3 hours ago, Marc said:

 

I implemented DLBC from the very start with this cinema build. I can say that it is super clean and concise. At the time of its release though, many of us had to use the +10dB Bass Harman curve due to it being very lean. I run two JBL Synthesis 18" subs. With that curve it came to life. Harman engineer's response to many of us talking about the "lean bass" was simply that "none of you have ever heard properly integrated bass" ... which perhaps there is some merit to. However, as firmware updates were released I was able to drop back down eventually settling on the +3dB Harman curve, and yes I love the bass now. It is unbelievably controlled and capable of massive swings when called upon. 

 

But do take this with a grain of salt though as I never heard this system/room without DLBC enabled.  

 

 

Thanks again Marc

This is why I posted the topic on this forum. I was 90% convinced on the Anthem AVM90 now I’ve swung to the JBL because of DLBC and ART in the future

[Mick08]

10 hours ago, HifiH said:

Have you considered the Core16 by storm Audio? 

 

 

I’ve looked at the Storm Core 16, not really looking at spending that much. It’s retail is just under $18k from what I can find

[Guest]

@Mick08 you don't need to quote posts you are replying to in separate posts. Just hit Quote, then add your reply (in the one post). I've merged them all for you.

[cwt]

7 hours ago, Mick08 said:

 

 

Thanks again Marc

This is why I posted the topic on this forum. I was 90% convinced on the Anthem AVM90 now I’ve swung to the JBL because of DLBC and ART in the future

I would be wary of promises and expectations vis a vis future upgrades Mick . Things like ART will likely require a heap of dsp power compared to the current dlbc to implement . The only sure thing with ART at the present is storm audio . Although a core is exxy whether it will be a  free update is the thing ; marantz will not be free [a good bet ]  

Quote

Dirac Live Active Room Treatment will make its debut in all high-performance StormAudio AVRs through a firmware update slated to roll out this Spring 2023.

or wait for the 12k marantz to get it eventually ? audioholics questions the roadmap [ dsp chipsets matter ]

Quote

 

At this point, we can only confirm that we will support both Dirac Live room correction technology - limited and full bandwidth versions AFTER the firmware update in March 2023. We also plan to support Bass Control upgrade although the integration efforts has not yet started. We expect we should be able to release a new firmware to support Dirac Live Bass Control upgrade sometime in 2024 - TBD.

Regarding Spatial correction, we will continue to work with Dirac team for any solutions they would release to consumer AV products in the future, however, it is just too early to commit anything new at this point.

 

 

[Mick08]

3 hours ago, cwt said:

I would be wary of promises and expectations vis a vis future upgrades Mick . Things like ART will likely require a heap of dsp power compared to the current dlbc to implement . The only sure thing with ART at the present is storm audio . Although a core is exxy whether it will be a  free update is the thing ; marantz will not be free [a good bet ]  

or wait for the 12k marantz to get it eventually ? audioholics questions the roadmap [ dsp chipsets matter ]

 

 

[Guest]

@Mick08 are you having a problem with the website? You continue to post quotes of other people.

Hit quote, but then add your reply before hitting submit.

[Mick08]

Good info to know Colin

 

I’ll make a decision based on current features. I would love a storm. May just have to save a bit longer.

 

I’ve been put off Marantz Receivers/Processors, the sound lacks dynamics to me, dull sounding. I had a Marantz receiver years ago and didn’t like it. I’ve heard my current setup (Krix MX30) at two retailers before buying. One was setup with the top of the range Marantz processor and power amp at the time and the other was on an Onkyo processor and power amp.
The system on the Onkyo was brilliant and was why I brought it. If I had only heard it on the Marantz I wouldn’t have purchased, not impressed. Being well known retailers I can only assume they were calibrated properly.

[Mick08]

9 minutes ago, Marc said:

@Mick08 are you having a problem with the website? You continue to post quotes of other people.

Hit quote, but then add your reply before hitting submit.

 

11 minutes ago, Marc said:

@Mick08 are you having a problem with the website? You continue to post quotes of other people.

Hit quote, but then add your reply before hitting submit.

That’s exactly what I’m doing, maybe because I’m doing it from an iPad 

[Snoopy8]

4 minutes ago, betty boop said:

...its a bit shocking to read that a brand like arcam would bring something so buggy to market ! 

Unfortunately, that has been Arcam's record for the previous generation as well. Arcam had been slow in fixing things then and likely will continue to do so now. I have the AVR 550, but bought it late in its life, when it was bug free.  

 

Thus, I am looking forward to when Marantz has fully implemented Dirac including the Bass Control, but not till next year.   

[BugPowderDust]

11 hours ago, betty boop said:

@Mick08 re the arcam av41... you might want to check out the following outpouring of grief from someone who lived with an arcam av41, also has some comment on the marantz av10 also mentioned in this thread

Mmm I’ve had an av41 in my system for close to 2 months now and none of those issues on the latest firmware.
 

I run Dirac live bass control on channels 13/14 and the results have been superlative. Zero handshaking issues and the unit has been faultless from a performance perspective. 
 

you know, the opposite of this

other user’s experience.

[BugPowderDust]

16 hours ago, Marc said:

The only two processors with enough grunt are obviously Trinnov and Storm. It's never going to happen in Trinnov, so Storm is the obvious choice why they've gone that way. Not even sure Acurus has the grunt needed that is apparent. I'm not sure we'll ever see it in non-PC CPUs, unless it's an add on box, perhaps - but that wouldn't be cheap either.

Pc in a box architectures definitely have their advantages with coping with new software integration touchpoints. 

[Guest]

Both the JBL and Arcam (same platform) had serious issues upon first release. In fact, some of the issues I had were not reported by any other user around the world, as mine was one of the very first released. They were not minor issues either - Dante failed and outputted full unattenuated voltage out all of the height channels, taking out all those speakers with it. Thankfully, Harman replaced those speakers.

 

I was ready to throw the unit in the bin at one point. I persevered and the unit got better and better with each release. It's now very stable and actually flawless (aside from a known ticking issue that still exists with Dante - which I am not using anyway). 

 

I suffered ALL of the above-mentioned HDMI issues also, but only on earlier firmware versions.

 

The Arcam story above does not link to its source, so I can't see the date on it, but it sounds like a faulty unit and/or not on latest firmware to me. Definitely not the experience of many now running the new Arcam (or JBL) platform today.

[Mick08]

12 hours ago, betty boop said:

 

@Mick08 re the arcam av41... you might want to check out the following outpouring of grief from someone who lived with an arcam av41, also has some comment on the marantz av10 also mentioned in this thread. this is from poster cable on AVS in the marantz av10 owners thread. the arcam av41 only came our late last year. for something so late to the game of 4k uhd and 3D audio its a bit shocking to read that a brand like arcam would bring something so buggy to market ! its not small money and complete disrespect to owners and those paying hard earned to only have to be beta testers...something getting all too common with some brands these day !  

 

[QUOTE="ccable, post: 62225973, member: 8479460"]

I will give you my 2 cents on Arcam AV41 and the Marantz AV10.

 

I came from a Denon X4500. I always wanted Arcam in previous years, but could only accord it now.

 

I tried the Denon X3800H. I failed to do my research before buying, given my long history with Denon AVRs, I didn’t feel the need to question that choice. I historically used all my Denon AVRs are pre-pro as I use Emotiva for amplification. I did not know Denon and Marantz had shifted to new TI DACs within their mid and lower lineup. You don’t get Sabre DACs until you go to the higher end models. After 30-60 minutes of listening to the new Denon 3800H my brain was very puzzled with how it sounded. It felt artificial. The sound stage was “strange“. I could not pinpoint what I was struggling with until I found Andrew Robinson’s X3800H YouTube review and he NAILED IT. Bottom lined, the TI DACs Denon and Marantz are using in the new stuff are not that great. Better vocals and punchy bass, but the sound stage is crap.

 

I never thought I would see a day where I chose to explore options outside of Denon. This leads me to the Arcam AV41.

 

If you are going to go big, then GO BIG. Or so I thought. I decided to go with Arcam AV41 due to its Sabre DAC and Arcam’s reputation for sound quallty. I did consider the Arcam AVR21 (AKA: AV41 with built in Class G amp). Instead I decided to go AV41 with Arcam PA720 and PA410s. Glass G for LCR, PA410s for surround and ceiling. I have a simple Atmos 7.2.4 setup. Arcam does not disappoint with Sound Quality. Its musical quality was spectacular. Surround separation was very noticeable and it really put my ceiling Atmos to work. I watched the Apple TV Foundations series and found myself looking up due to some wild sound effects. It was cool. What was very impressive was how well the Arcam can sound at lower volume levels. I usually had to push my Denon to get exciting sound. Han Zimmer, Coldplay Arabesque, Jazz, and other dynamic music really sounded great at low, mid or high volumes.

 

But then, after 2-3 days of my new, shiny, $10,000 Arcam setup….it all went downhill.

 

1. HDMI switching problems. Apple TV, NVIDIA Shield, XBOX, etc. The AV41 would continuously change devices every 2-3 seconds. Something about its CEC control was broken. The only solution was to disable CEC control on the AV41. goodbye EARC, Volume control and device switching ability.

 

2. Video flickering. My child would use the XBOX and after 20-40 minutes, the video on our LG OLED would flicker for a few seconds and eventually shutoff the entire system. Never had that problem with the Denon units.

 

3. DIRAC and subwoofers. I was warned Arcam was not friendly. You must be very technical and knowledgeable. I have two subwoofers. Hence, you cannot use the two AV41 subwoofer outputs while using DIRAC. You must use channel 13/14 or 15/16. You must have 2 or 4 subwoofers. Not 3. After attempting to use Dirac and paying the $500 Dirac Bass Control upgrade fee, I noticed the subwoofers sounded out of phase and NOT RIGHT. I called my dealer and he provided the dealer support number. I called Arcam dealer support and the response from Arcam was shocking.

 

a. The HDMI switching is know issue. No ETA for fix.

b. The Dirac Bass control is a known issue. You cannot use channel 13/14. Must use 15/16. I tried their suggestion. Same problem. I emailed Dirac and recieved a refund for the Bass Control. Why pay for it if Acram AV41 cannot use it properly. No ETA on fix.

c. Applying Dirac filters will occasionally cause the AV41 to lockup. You will be forced to power off and restart. Arcam’s response…Known issue.

 

 

And other buggy issues I suffered. It became hell using the AV41 and I found myself running into the theatre room each day to fix issues my child was suffering because the Arcam would break down. I thought I has a faulty unit, but discovered these are known and wide issues that Arcam acknowledges.

 

As for the Arcam amps. I was really excited to hear the Class G on my Revel Be mains and Revel center. My whole system is Revel speakers. The Emotiva handled these speakers for 12 months without a problem. Sometimes I push volumes to 85-90+ db. The Arcam PA720 would go into protect mode after 30-45 minutes of any push beyond 85db. Lesson learned….if you listen to music loud, the PA720 is not for you. And, the PA720 gets VERY, VERY, VERY HOT!!!!

 

Needless to say, the Arcam AV41 and PA720 went back to the store within 2 weeks. And before others ask “Did you apply software updates? Of course I did, and I did factory resets after the updates were applied.

 

Which now forced me to find a new path. After hearing the Arcam AV41 and how good it sounded, I wanted to maintain that level of quality. The only product we could find with close specification was the Marantz AV10. I took delivery and installed it 5 days ago.

 

It sounds great. I little Neutral. But anyone who has used Denon and Marantz with Audyssey over the years knows they always sound neutral until you adjust the Audyssey curve, disable the Dynamic EQ and other DSP stuff. I know Dirac sound better, compared to Audyssey and I know I will wait until March for that option. But overall, I love the AV10. I would say the Arcam AV41 does have a “little“ more detail at low volume, but for all the bugs it has, the Marantz is a solid replacement, and the AV10 is software stable.

 

I watched Top Gun Maverick Blu-Ray on both the Arcam and Marantz and both handle surround sound beautifully!

 

So, it’s really a trade off. Does the Arcam sound better compared to Marantz….A little. But the Marantz is stable and full featured and easy to use, and you will have Dirac in 2-3 months. So maybe the Marantz can match Arcam quality once it receives Dirac in March……

 

My vote is for Marantz. I had an Arcam dream, but the AV41 turned that dream into a nightmare.

 

Also, the Class G Arcam PA720 (AKA: JBL Sythesis 7120) did sound better compared to the Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 I have. Not mind blowing better, but better, more clear. More details, etc. Too bad it could not run for more than 30 minutes without becoming a heater and shutting down.

[/QUOTE]

Wow, interesting read.
Surely they must realise the damage this is doing to their brand and why I started the OP and my comments regarding the JBL being buggy, but then people such as Marc are having no issues. Different owners are having vastly different experiences. 
If I buy a product, particularly in that price range I expect it to work. A few minor quirks I can deal with as long as they’re sorted quickly with updates but I don’t want a constant source of frustration. 
I watched a video on YouTube with a guy setting up the JBL SDP-55 and he was having a load of issues, having to restart the unit because of it freezing, input values changing. There were times where he was perplexed at what was happening and he isn’t a newbie but once it was sorted and calibrated he couldn’t speak highly enough of the sound quality but he said he couldn’t recommended it for someone without a lot of knowledge with this type of equipment and Dirac and that’s what puts me off. I don’t mind having someone set it up for me but I want to be able to play around with it and tweak things. You know what it’s like.