Hi Cazzesman,

Been thinking about your solution and wanted to add a left field idea based on my experience.  Sorry!
If you head in the 2 x Sub direction I sense you are going to end up doing quite a bit of experimentation with X-Over points and Dirac curves to find the sweet spot you like, or combinations you like for different music.  It isn't quite plug and play.  You could use a combination of Kii High Pass filters and miniDSP for Sub Low pass but my experience was that was messy to get balanced, and to switch between profiles in both.  It is much easier to have both X-Overs in one place along with the PEQ adjustments you are very likely to need to fine tune the configurations.  For 30Hz level X-Over I used LR8 in miniDSP and it was pretty clean.   I did the same at 50Hz and 80Hz but needed to add some (different) PEQ filters to each to tidy things up.  Switching all that in one place than rather than some in Kii and some on miniDSP is much easier, particularly if you can switch them in parallel with the Dirac curves.

So the left field option might be a miniDSP SHD (the analogue version) that replaces the 22D for Dirac and combines the crossover and PEQ management with it.  It doesn't quite give you the 90ms delay, but adding a Bluestream AD11AU on way to Subs only is easy and in the least critical part of the signal chain.  You can fine tune the delay in the SHD.
So source to Mutec; Mutec to SHD; and then (need to 100% confirm this) AES digital to Kii, and Analog out to Subs via Bluestream.

More dollars and means swapping out 22D, but left field idea that may work and I sense will make things easier to manage down the track.  SHD does other stuff as well (Roon Endpoint, media server in its own right, volume control if you want) if they are ever of interest.
Anyway, more food for thought.

Gibbo

 

????

 

so much food for thought my brain go bang.

 

thanks for the ideas.

 

Regards  Cazzesman

Have spent a bit of time getting under the covers of the sub integration discussion.  Still using the miniDSP Studio SHD as sub X-Over and Dirac Live, but have added an OpenDRC-DA8 to act as digital time delay and DAC on way to sub (rather than the separate components I had before).  Found I needed 99.3 ms delay for sub to allow for the Kii's processing time.

I also found my initial use of Dirac Live was causing all sorts of unanticipated impacts so went back to basics.  I created a Dirac curve that, when applied, mapped pretty closely to the Kii standard response.  I also only applied it below 200Hz based on others advice, and supported by my listening tests. 
Anyway, some results using frequency sweeps in REW.  Note graphs use 1/6 smoothing and are roughly 10Hz to 400Hz.  

First graph shows Kii 'natural' output in grey (no Sub) and what happened when I applied my Dirac curve in red (still no sub).  It raises the bass a little just above 20Hz but falls away fast below that.   That seems as far as they can be pushed.  I haven't worked out what causes the 45Hz dip - I did the Dirac optimisation without furniture obscuring the listening position as that seems to be the preference, and then put the furniture back (and the dip got more noticeable).

 

The next graph shows the impact of the sub under different scenarios.  The grey line is as in the above graph - Kii with no sub and no optimisation.  The blue line is with sub X-over at 30Hz and my standard Dirac / Kii curve (which is a flat target from 100Hz down).  The lift below 30 Hz is noticeable in the graph, and in listening - a bit more depth and  'punch'.  The green and purple lines are modifications of my standard Dirac / Kii curve that add 1.5db and 3 db respectively to the target below 100Hz.   Green also has X-Over at 30Hz, purple at 50Hz.  These two add some real 'oomph' and feel like they bring some of the real air movement and thump you get from physically larger drivers (which I guess is the sub doing its work).  I don't listen 'loud, loud' so am finding the 30Hz X-Over is all I need, and anything more than 3db boost above my standard Kii curve is unnecessary, a bit overpowering and begins to compress the sound stage.

 

Now much more convinced the sub is a worthwhile addition, and much wiser on traps in applying Dirac thanks to others in this forum.

 

15 hours ago, gibbo9000 said:

Have spent a bit of time getting under the covers of the sub integration discussion.  Still using the miniDSP Studio SHD as sub X-Over and Dirac Live, but have added an OpenDRC-DA8 to act as digital time delay and DAC on way to sub (rather than the separate components I had before).  Found I needed 99.3 ms delay for sub to allow for the Kii's processing time.

I also found my initial use of Dirac Live was causing all sorts of unanticipated impacts so went back to basics.  I created a Dirac curve that, when applied, mapped pretty closely to the Kii standard response.  I also only applied it below 200Hz based on others advice, and supported by my listening tests. 

Am surprised the SHD did not allow you to set a delay (but I have not used one.).

 

With Dirac Live, are you applying it only to the sub or to the Kii as well?  Your Kii measurement show that the frequency response is within a 10 dB band which is excellent. Also the Kii has been designed to be phase coherent.  Both of these factors suggest that Dirac Live is not necessary for the Kii itself.

 

A bit confused on why you need to play with the cross over in the sub itself.  Dirac Live will take care of it.

 

p/s have recently joined the Kii Three owners club!  Will post details of my setup soon.

Edited June 21, 20205 yr by Snoopy8
Typo

Welcome to the Kii club.  Hope you enjoy them as much as I / we do!!
The miniDSP SHD Studio can only manage a delay of 30ms max, and sub itself is +/- 10ms adjustment.  The Kii DSP in 'exact' mode eats up 90+ms. 

I am applying DL to Kii and Sub below 200Hz.  Sub X-Over is low at 30Hz or 50Hz to avoid damaging the Cardiod distribution of the Kii's above 50 Hz.  So for the cases where I lift the low end of the DL target curves the 'boost' impacts up to 100 - 150 Hz -- so I need DL to lift the bottom part of the Kii's as well.  Beyond that it doesn't mess with the Kii's.

Sorry if I am confusing - I am not using the cross over controls in the sub - leaving that to the miniDSP X-Over /DSP (which applies before DL).  Just using it to manage 30 Hz and 50Hz LR 48db cross over curves between sub and Kii's

Hope that makes sense.

Gibbo

 

12 minutes ago, gibbo9000 said:

Welcome to the Kii club.  Hope you enjoy them as much as I / we do!!

Thank you for the welcome.  The Kii Threes are delivering in spades, with a wide and deep sound stage and clarity and detail. 

16 minutes ago, gibbo9000 said:

The miniDSP SHD Studio can only manage a delay of 30ms max, and sub itself is +/- 10ms adjustment.  The Kii DSP in 'exact' mode eats up 90+ms. 

Good to know the delay limit of the SHD Studio and the Kii latency.

18 minutes ago, gibbo9000 said:

I am applying DL to Kii and Sub below 200Hz.  Sub X-Over is low at 30Hz or 50Hz to avoid damaging the Cardiod distribution of the Kii's above 50 Hz.  So for the cases where I lift the low end of the DL target curves the 'boost' impacts up to 100 - 150 Hz -- so I need DL to lift the bottom part of the Kii's as well.  Beyond that it doesn't mess with the Kii's.

Sorry if I am confusing - I am not using the cross over controls in the sub - leaving that to the miniDSP X-Over /DSP (which applies before DL).  Just using it to manage 30 Hz and 50Hz LR 48db cross over curves between sub and Kii's

Hope that makes sense.

Sorry, it was my misunderstanding about where you set the cross over.  I am still learning about the Kii cardioid distribution of bass.  Do not know enough of the impact on setting the cross over at 30 Hz or 50 Hz . 

 

Once I have completed my Kii setup,  I will do some measurements and look at waterfall diagram and phasing as well.  I am happy with what I am hearing with Kii now, and suspect that it will require not much room correction. What I use remains to be decided.

37 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Once I have completed my Kii setup,  I will do some measurements and look at waterfall diagram and phasing as well.  I am happy with what I am hearing with Kii now, and suspect that it will require not much room correction. What I use remains to be decided.

Interested to see what you find.  I regularly come back to their 'natural' sound and marvel at how good they are.  Not until these latest changes have I been convinced by the sub addition - and even then I question why given their intrinsic strengths.  I guess a distraction from thinking about BXT's ala @cazzesman's mischievous thought of trading the Covid blocked holiday for them!

Just a couple of behind the scenes captures on the above.  First is the cross-over in miniDSP SHD - Sub in orange and Kii in Grey, and second is all the OpenDRC is doing - the delay (plus DAC as my SHD is digital out).  Third is my 'natural ' curve in Dirac that tracks the Kii's response as set up without sub.   Fourth is an attempt to overlay the 'natural' with my 1.5 and 3db boosted curves below 200 Hz respectively from left to right.  The boosted ones are off Kii plus Sub measurements. I have left the DL corrections out for simplicity.  These yield the output curves in REW as my earlier post. 

Kii recommendation seems to be limit cross over to 30Hz so it remains below their 50Hz cardiod bottom limit, unless you really want to crank up the SPL.  For the SPL path they seem to suggest 50Hz crossover, back the Kii boundary control to -12 or so, and move all that low bass load to sub.  I have found no need or desire to do that - and am lazy so don't like remembering to switch presets in the Kii's.

1 hour ago, gibbo9000 said:

Kii recommendation seems to be limit cross over to 30Hz so it remains below their 50Hz cardiod bottom limit, unless you really want to crank up the SPL.  For the SPL path they seem to suggest 50Hz crossover, back the Kii boundary control to -12 or so, and move all that low bass load to sub.  I have found no need or desire to do that - and am lazy so don't like remembering to switch presets in the Kii's.

Am interested in where Kii post such recommendations and reading more about the cardioid bass management.  Is there a place where Kii DSP is discussed in detail, explained.   I am exploring using existing Kii DSP capability before doing DSP externally.

18 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Am interested in where Kii post such recommendations and reading more about the cardioid bass management.  Is there a place where Kii DSP is discussed in detail, explained. 

Not in one place unfortunately - so pieced together from multiple snippets that all seem to add up in the end.  Will see if I can dig out the key pieces I have  . . .

In case some of you don't have it already I have added a copy of the Kii Review Compilation that seems to come with new Kii's these days. Some great feel good reading, and quite a bit of technical detail mixed in.  At the suggestion of @Snoopy8 I have also added it to the first post in this thread so it doesn't get buried

 

Kii_Compilation_2015-2019_V2.pdf

Edited June 22, 20205 yr by gibbo9000
Updated attachment

1 hour ago, gibbo9000 said:

In case some of you don't have it already I have added a copy of the Kii Review Compilation that seems to come with new Kii's these days. Some great feel good reading, and quite a bit of technical detail mixed in.  Sorry about the duplicate page 4.  At the suggestion of @Snoopy8 I have also added it to the first post in this thread so it doesn't get buried.

Thank you, most interesting reading which has added to a deeper understanding of the Kii. 

On 16/02/2020 at 10:23 PM, cazzesman said:

After listening to the system with my previously mentioned setting (80 Hz crossover, Butterworth Filter, etc.) for a few weeks,  I decided to loop back with Kii Audio and ask them as to their recommendations regarding settings, etc. Here their response:

 

“I would definitely stay way below 50Hz with the x-over to the sub, if I had to start I would start at around 30Hz and below. That´s where the Kii THREE has it´s -3dB roll off point, so you could slowly start to fiill the spectrum below that.
If you want extra SPL from the system, you can gradually turn down the Boundary control to -12(dB). If you do, you want the sub to come in below 50Hz roughly.
In any case, if you measure the room response of the Kii THREE only (with your Boundary setting of choice),
the Trinnov measurement should give you a proper indication where the power response drops off and try to fill that with the sub.
Don´t forget to roughly time align sub and Kiis. I would also experiment with using the front wall as a boundary layer for the subwoofer! The benefit being that you can eq the sub response to put out less energy (roughly -6dB) and the subwoofers time aligned (to the Kiis) wave front will also be cardioid of course.”

This post from @cazzesman research on audiophilestyle posted earlier in this thread is another part of the story.

 

My Kii Threes are in an open plan family room, with some room treatment.  Out of the box, they delivered in spades, with a wide and deep sound stage and clarity and detail. You may notice that Kii Threes are sitting on top on Isoacoustics Aperta 100 stands, which removed the smearing of instruments.  I re-used them from my previous setup, based on advice directly from Isoacoustics. They recommended GAIA feet if the speakers were mechanically fastened to the speaker stands, or Aperta/ISO stands if not.

 

 

Streamer is an Intel NUC with music on a NAS. The ethernet side has an Uptone EtherRegen, an audiophile switch designed from the ground up. It is connected to an Ubiquity Edge Server with ethernet over fibre optic Together they provided a darker background with more details and clarity plus a wider sound stage. 

12 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

My Kii Threes are in an open plan family room, with some room treatment.

Looking good.  That looks like a real world room with its share of obstacles!!  Glad to hear they delivered 'out the box'.

I hadn't heard of using the Iso Acoustics stands - did you find a significant difference?  Are your stands filled?

Doesn't look like you have much toe in - is that giving a good balance of sound stage and mid / top end?

Gibbo
 

16 minutes ago, gibbo9000 said:

Looking good.  That looks like a real world room with its share of obstacles!!  Glad to hear they delivered 'out the box'.

I hadn't heard of using the Iso Acoustics stands - did you find a significant difference?  Are your stands filled?

Doesn't look like you have much toe in - is that giving a good balance of sound stage and mid / top end?

The Isoaccoustics stands reduces the smearing of instruments and makes them pinpoint in the sound stage.  They are also cheap! Also, they  work better than sand in the stands (not filled).

 

Nothing wrong with sound stage, mids/top end.  Been using this angle for a long time and I think toe in is a personal preference.  By way, one of the articles said that that 7.5 degrees toe out  is the best!!!  

A tweak for getting a better bass response on my setup.

 

In Tone Control, increase the Bass by 2 dB or more.  This is the lower shelf filter (default cross over at 297.1 Hz).

In Pro Menu/Advanced Filters, Set Master Filter to:

• Type: Low Shelf
• Frequency : 30 Hz
• Q : 8
• Gain : -12 dB

Conceptually, the tweaks look like this.  

 

 

You can play around with the settings to suit your taste and room, eg. change the Tone Control gain dB, lower/increase the crossover.  Or change the master filter frequency, Q (larger Q =  apply filter more quickly) and gain.  Some parameters are more sensitive than others.

 

For people using Dirac Live, you can apply the same concept using a target curve.  See NAD C658 thread where I documented some Dirac Live tweaks.

 

 

Edited July 10, 20205 yr by Snoopy8
Changed some parameters, typo

Haven't done much tweaking myself but have the kii's pointed approx 0.5-1 foot outside of each ear. Haven't tried them perfectly flat like you have them Snoopy.

 

Appreciate the comments on boosting the bass,, i'll give it a go.

On 08/07/2020 at 9:02 PM, gibbo9000 said:

Doesn't look like you have much toe in

 

5 hours ago, wikeeboy said:

 Haven't tried them perfectly flat like you have them Snoopy.

Oh dear, looks like my photo from my phone is misleading people, taken at head height!  ?  It does have a toe in about 30 degrees.

Is anyone here playing DSD/DSF music on the Kii Threes?  I find them very good, with slightly quieter background and better defined depth in the soundstage compared with the PCM version (same master).  Only problem is that volume has to be increased 12 to 15 dB.  ? 

 

Internally, the Kii Three is converting the DSD/DSF before applying its own DSP and it appears to be doing a very good job. This ability to play DSD/DSF music has further reinforced my view that the internal DSP is all I need.  I was originally contemplating adding dual subs optimised with MSO (a DIY equivalent of BXT!)  or maybe use Dirac Live, but now think neither are needed.

I have a bunch of DSD discs, but they all have been carefully transcoded to 24/96 PCM - and that's how I listen to them.  To these aging ears the sound is identical, but once in PCM I am more in control of the output. The main benefit here is the ability to apply the ReplayGain, so there's no loudness difference between DSD discs and the rest of my collection.

So far I have no need or intent to do any external DSP or attach subs.  Very happy with the output as is.

 

Does anybody know if the Ethernet out port on the secondary/slave speaker is active ??

 

i assume it isn’t as you have to select which speaker is the master,

 

i was wondering this as it seemed it could be a possible way to add a subwoofer, via an Ethernet to rca or xlr adapter cable.

59 minutes ago, Ray H said:

Does anybody know if the Ethernet out port on the secondary/slave speaker is active ??

You can run a surround setup .... so I know the port in the non-master speaker  can  be active. 

 

Quote

via an Ethernet to rca or xlr adapter cable.

No - the signal is proprietry.    It would have to be a Kii subwoofer, or at least adapter.

On 13/07/2020 at 3:30 PM, Snoopy8 said:

Is anyone here playing DSD/DSF music on the Kii Threes?  I find them very good, with slightly quieter background and better defined depth in the soundstage compared with the PCM version (same master).  Only problem is that volume has to be increased 12 to 15 dB.  ? 

 

Internally, the Kii Three is converting the DSD/DSF before applying its own DSP and it appears to be doing a very good job. This ability to play DSD/DSF music has further reinforced my view that the internal DSP is all I need.  I was originally contemplating adding dual subs optimised with MSO (a DIY equivalent of BXT!)  or maybe use Dirac Live, but now think neither are needed.

Yes, I do it, and I also sometimes convert all music on the fly for playback as DSD.

I find that PCM presents more "space" between the instruments; DSD presents the playblack as if the instruments are more "connected" or what I call a more "solid" presentation - less "space". DSD playback also sounds a bit more "relaxed" . I mostly listen in PCM, but sometimes switch to DSD mode. 

 

I agree about the Kii ASRC - it seems to do such a good  job that the "DSD" attributes are preserved even when converting internally to PCM. I also have an external DAC connected to the Kiis, and sometimes send DSD over it to the XLR input of the Kii. Even here I can hear the characteristics of DSD vs. PCM, even with the double conversion. 

4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

You can run a surround setup .... so I know the port in the non-master speaker  can  be active. 

 

No - the signal is proprietry.    It would have to be a Kii subwoofer, or at least adapter.

Surround is.not mentioned or referred to in the manual or website data. I would not be surprised if it becomes a function at a later time.
 

Any surround system with Kii would likely have to utilise the analog input on the speakers as there is no currently available “proprietary” cinema (5.1 etc.) processor or surround function in the Kii control or software, apart from latency control as part of the 2.0 system.
 

There is no Kii subwoofer, only the BXT which is more an extension of the speaker, not a subwoofer.

 

Yes adapter, or more likely software change from Kii itself would be the solution. I will wait to here from the Sonic Purity guys, I’m of the thought it’s not currently active, but potentially it could be requested as a software update by Kii, but it seems quite obvious they have not done this as it would allows users to buy cheaper subwoofers instead of the BXT extension.
 

 

On 17/07/2020 at 3:03 PM, Ray H said:

i was wondering this as it seemed it could be a possible way to add a subwoofer, via an Ethernet to rca or xlr adapter cable.

You have the BXT modules and want to add a sub???  

 

At one stage, I did investigate adding my dual subs, used in HT setup, to the Kii.  It would require a streamer with dual digital outputs, one to the Kii and another to a DAC to feed the subs.  Volume control will be done at streamer.  The other option is use a streamer/DAC with dual analog outputs and use the Kii as active speakers.  Both options will compromise the Kii in some way.

 

Fortunately, I have the bass I wanted using the internal DSP.