Kii Audio Owners and Discussion Thread

[Ray H]

Ok, so I finally set up the BXT modules. Some initial thoughts;

 

The BXT is heavy but conveniently has carry handles built into both ends, which is very thoughtful given the 49 kg weight.

 

The connecting plates are very easy to install  and allow a good physical connection.
 

The cables that connect the Kii 3 to the BXT, particularly the rj45 style connectors seem a little short to me, they almost feel like they may break when clicked home, maybe it’s just me, there is no issue with the sound so they are clearly ok.

 

The base plinths slide home in exactly the same way as the Kii three to BXT which is nice.

 

When they were set up after around 45 minutes I was initially shocked at how big they physically look. Even without spikes they are much taller than the pictures led me to believe. I am in a weird shaped medium sized room and they look quite imposing to be honest, discreet they are not.

 

Sound wise, after a quick 20 minute listen the initial thoughts on the sound changes (in order of magnitude IMO) are;

 

Soundstage - they conjure up a significantly larger soundstage than the Kii three alone, height, width and depth are all much larger.

 

Dynamics - The Kii three alone is very good in this respect for its size, but after hearing the combo, it starts to sound a tiny bit dynamically constrained. Together you realise the dynamics become unfettered, almost limitless when the BXT is installed.

 

Bass - much like the dynamics is increased in power. The depth is increased, but more significantly the power and ease in the bass domain is improved markedly as you would expect given the quantity of extra drivers thrown at the low end performance.

 

As I am a person that likes to allocate a number to things. I would say the performance is improved by around 30+ percent, so obviously considering the cost, the law of diminishing returns is at play here as always. I expect after run-in the improvement could be as much as 40 percent.

 

i will report again after I have logged a hundred hours or so.

sorry about the camera orientation on the shots, I always forget to hold the iPad the right way up...

regards,

 

Ray

Edited February 15, 2020 by Ray H

[gibbo9000]

21 hours ago, Ray H said:

they look quite imposing to be honest, discreet they are not.

Great write up Ray and thank you for taking the effort to do it.  30-40% improvement must sound amazing. 

 

I remain afraid that the 'discreet they are not' bit would severely damage the WAF!

 

Gibbo

 

[cazzesman]

Thanks Ray.   extremely jealous right about now.

 

Now the Kii’s have the high and low pass filters in the dsp, has anyone tried adding a quality sub or 2 into the mix.

 

I was wondering what a sub would do in freeing up the Kii’s where a crossover was set 60-80.    It appears as if Ray has started to answer that question.    
 

Ray do you know where the Kii 3 version of a crossover kicks in between the 2 units?

 

Does it sound as if the addition of the bxt has freed up and opened up the mid range more?

 

 It is not that the kii’s don’t go low enough as i get 20htz easily in my room, but I was just wondering about the advantages , if any, of taking some of the pressure off them.    Any thoughts Ray and/or others.

 

I like the look of the SVS SB3000 with the new SVS App to tune it.

 

Regards Cazzesman

Edited February 16, 2020 by cazzesman

[Ray H]

29 minutes ago, cazzesman said:

 

Now the Kii’s have the high and low pass filters in the dsp, has anyone tried adding a quality sub or 2 into the mix.

 

I was wondering what a sub would do in freeing up the Kii’s where a crossover was set 60-80.    It appears as if Ray has started to answer that question.    
 

Ray do you know where the Kii 3 version of a crossover kicks in between the 2 units?

 

Does it sound as if the addition of the bxt has freed up and opened up the mid range more?

 

 It is not that the kii’s don’t go low enough as i get 20htz easily in my room, but I was just wondering about the advantages , if any, of taking some of the pressure off them.    Any thoughts Ray and/or others.

 

I like the look of the SVS SB3000 with the new SVS App to tune it.

Hey cazzesman,

 

With regards the crossover point, great question, I couldn’t find it on the Kii website. And the BXT’s dont come with any significant literature containing specs, I will have a play in the menu of the Control to see if I can find it.

 

Today I “spiked” the speakers, which also made a noticeable improvement. Themidrange does seem significantly better, clearer, bigger and less constrained as I mentioned before. If the vocals are big in the recording they sound notably fuller and scale bigger, in short more realistic to me than the Kii three alone.

 

Yes I agree wrt the Kii three bass, it was one of the key points that followed purchase, the punch and cleanliness for a “stand mount” is frankly mind boggling. But I think the addition of quality subs would certainly help, but I would stress the word “quality” the Kii three bass is so clean that anything not of the same quality would likely detract from the Kii 3 bass IMO.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Ray H

[cazzesman]

Yes I am presuming sealed JL, Rel or SVS would be required.   A Rel 1508 got some terrific reviews for speed recently but around $2700.  
 

I found a website forum where a gent had 2 DIY subs alongside kii 3’s and he crossed over at 200htz.   He said they were designed for bass and not as subs.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[cazzesman]

I go this reply from Baconbrain over on the AudiophileStyle Forum - Kii 3 Thread where I posted the same question.   Thought it worth posting here.....

 

After listening to the system with my previously mentioned setting (80 Hz crossover, Butterworth Filter, etc.) for a few weeks,  I decided to loop back with Kii Audio and ask them as to their recommendations regarding settings, etc. Here their response:

 

“I would definitely stay way below 50Hz with the x-over to the sub, if I had to start I would start at around 30Hz and below. That´s where the Kii THREE has it´s -3dB roll off point, so you could slowly start to fiill the spectrum below that.
If you want extra SPL from the system, you can gradually turn down the Boundary control to -12(dB). If you do, you want the sub to come in below 50Hz roughly.
In any case, if you measure the room response of the Kii THREE only (with your Boundary setting of choice),
the Trinnov measurement should give you a proper indication where the power response drops off and try to fill that with the sub.
Don´t forget to roughly time align sub and Kiis. I would also experiment with using the front wall as a boundary layer for the subwoofer! The benefit being that you can eq the sub response to put out less energy (roughly -6dB) and the subwoofers time aligned (to the Kiis) wave front will also be cardioid of course.”

 

Given that my boundary setting are currently set at -12 with the corner placement of the Kii’s, I decided to change the active crossover settings to 50 Hz and utilize 8th order Linkwitz-Riley LP and HP Filters. This resulted in a much more distinct bass with a perceived positive influence to the SPL. 

 

If any of you are considering a 2.1 constellation with the Kii’s, I can only recommend that you give it a try. It is definitely my preference setup and adds another dimension to an already excellent set of speakers.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[gibbo9000]

On 16/02/2020 at 10:23 PM, cazzesman said:

I would also experiment with using the front wall as a boundary layer for the subwoofer! The benefit being that you can eq the sub response to put out less energy (roughly -6dB) and the subwoofers time aligned (to the Kiis) wave front will also be cardioid of course

Continuing to muse on the subwoofer question with Kii 3's that @cazzesman is exploring.  Two questions / comments on the above.

Am I right in assuming that using the front layer as a boundary layer effectively implies a single sided, sealed subwoofer with its back up to the front wall and front aligned with the front of the Kii's?  So back-to-back (B&W's) or down firing subwoofers less suited? 

Not sure I understand the comment about the subwoofer being cardioid.  The more I read it seems the Kii 3's are cardioid down to 50hz (active dsp function nulling the rear energy) but below that aren't.  So seems to me subwoofer crossover below 50Hz keeps it out of the way of the Kii's cardioid distribution strengths, so that comment is less meaningful?
I also like the look of the SVS SB-3000 - but pity it isn't available in white.

[gibbo9000]

The Kii's now have a subwoofer friend.  Ended up going with the Rythmik F12 based on certainty of low down frequency response and matte black colour goes with Kii stands.  I am using a MinDSP SHD Studio that is only digital out, so had to add a DAC for sub.
Took me a few days and a couple of detours to master REW for delay calculations and get consistent, sensible results.  And they showed the sub was a good 90ms ahead of the Kii's!  Can get some of that back by turning off 'Exact' mode in Kii's, but that is not recommended for stereo.  Unfortunately adjustments on sub and in MiniDSP could only add around 40ms delay on sub, so I had to add an external delay - currently a Blustream analogue in/out device, but looking for a digital one.  Armed with that I got the sub and main pretty tightly time aligned.

At this stage I have followed the Kii advice above on keeping the sub below 50Hz and have two settings for testing - one with XOver at 30Hz and a second with XOver at 40Hz.  Both use Linkwitz-Riley filters at 48db/octave.  Sounds highly technical but I take the simple version - keeps output constant through XOver frequencies, and the 30Hz one has sub completely turned off by 50Hz.
I then calibrated both XOver steups, along with a no sub version, to Dirac house curve from ~18Hz up.  MiniDSP makes it easy to switch between the 3 different configurations in almost real time.
Now I have some listening to do.  Initial impressions are that the sub does very little work unless listening to tracks with lots of deep base and up loud.  At my normal listening levels the audible changes are definitely quite subtle.  Nothing dramatic, just a sense of slightly more power / ease.  No large change in sound stage (but the starting point is pretty good!).
Will do some more listening, and perhaps try moving the XOver up to 50Hz to see if letting sub do more work alters anything more dramatically - but I doubt it - it seems to fit in pretty seemlessly.
Gibbo

[Ray H]

Good choice with the rythmik. Glad the results are positive. Is it an option to add a second sub ? Ie are there enough connections with the miniDSP ?

[gibbo9000]

1 hour ago, Ray H said:

Good choice with the rythmik. Glad the results are positive. Is it an option to add a second sub ? Ie are there enough connections with the miniDSP ?

Thanks Ray.  Rythmik feels good and tight as it is meant to be, and miniDSP setup can easily handle second.  It has two SPDIF out - one going to Kii's and second to DAC (currently using combined signal on one channel out to sub, so second into other channel of DAC and away it would go).

It is small step up, but I sense there is a lot more to the line source concept of the BXTs and the impact they have.  Well set up sub just unloads the low end of Kii's a little when pushed - perhaps 5 - 10% improvement if pushed on loud/deep base, but little on most of my listening.  To emulate BXT's I might need two stacks of 3 subs!

I sense part of my result is a bit obvious.  Given I have used Dirac to set a specific response curve for Kii's (no Sub), and then also asked Dirac to set the same curve for Kii's plus sub, and the sub is time aligned and below 50Hz, they should really sound the same until the Kii's run out of puff - which is only when pushed very hard by my standards.  I have only very rarely seem the red light, and they were accidents.  Without Dirac 'normalising' the two they may sound more different, but that would be equivalent to setting a different curve.
So interesting and a small step up -- but from an awesome base.  I am still wondering what a 30-40% improvement could possibly sound like?!

[Ray H]

Thanks David for the explanation. The 2 x stacks of three would probably be fantastic, and quite cost effective compared to the BXT’s.

 

I don’t get a chance to listen much since we have moved, but today I had a listen to the Kii three’s/ BXT’s. and it was one of those “burn in “ moments, were all of a sudden the room was being bass locked, ie like the drivers and amps had freed up and were producing noticeably more bass power. When the deep bass hits and the room is bass locked it is one of those audible things that makes the hairs on your neck stand up. So pretty happy where the sound of the combo is going, even bearing the cost in mind.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Ray H

[gibbo9000]

6 hours ago, Ray H said:

The 2 x stacks of three would probably be fantastic, and quite cost effective compared to the BXT’s.

Stacks would be fun - but BXT's would be better.  From the emerging reviews on them they are a lot more than a sub, and your experience supports that.  Enjoy them!  I will keep playing and try not to get too tempted. 

I am not a bass head, but I do want to try some target curves that are a bit more intensive in the lower range for classical / orchestral, and I sense the sub will add some grunt there without sacrificing SPL overall. 

[Ray H]

Good morning fellow Kii owners;

 

Just a short post to recommend upgrading the stock Kii Ethernet cables. From the Ethernet cables topic posted by dbastin, and the length of the stock cables, I decided to upgrade to a 2 metre and 5 metre HD labs cable. The effect on the sound is astonishing to my ears given the reasonably low upgrade cost.

 

My observations were;

 

New Cable: DH Labs Reunion Cat 8

Connected upstream to: Kii three/BXT system and Sony HAP-Z1ES.

Upgraded from: Stock Kii cables.

Switch: N/A

Other downstream: Curious USB evolved.

Other cables you considered: Nordstrom Heimdall 2- but probably too expensive for an initial shot over the bow.

Reason for your choice:   recommendation above. Good feedback/comments online. Price.

Links to info about the new cable:

Your comments/observations: Build quality is very nice compared to stock CAT cables. They are a bit physically stiff, which is a bit of a negative, but very minor. Sound quality increase; frankly a bit shocking how much better this is in the context of the Kii system. Initial thoughts are that I am very impressed considering the relatively low cost, even for a 2 and 5 metre cable together, ie around one 5th of the cost of the Nordost Heimdall 2 equivelant. sound quality difference includes, bigger soundstage, much better bass, smoother sound without loss of detail, more organic less digital.

 

In short I recommend an upgrade of the Ethernet cables in the Kii system, as a sound quality improvement at little extra cost.

[cazzesman]

ISO does funny things to folks after a prolonged period so I started looking at stuff to do.   Boredom is the bank managers friend me thinks.

 

Abit of a 'to much time on hands' post, but just throwing out some ideas to talk about and ponder.  Feel free to join in a laugh at my day dreams.  

 

It looks like no OS holidays for 18months so best put the money to good use before my dearly beloved has a better (sic) use for it.

 

@gibbo9000   Gibbo I have been researching all manner of 10" and 12" subs.  Certainly the Rythmik Direct Servo F12 looks the ants pants.   Where did you end up purchasing your Rythmik F12 (Redspade or Audio Salon (both Paul and Richard are good folk)) and if I may be so bold............Cost? $3,000ish???

 

Gibbo do you think that in the time you have now had it, the F12 was worth the cost and integration with the Kii's.   Perception on improved sound quality after the bottom end pressure was removed from the Kii 3's????

 

@Ray H Any idea of the RRP of the BXT pair from Sonic Purity.  I see the price on the website is for the combination kii/BXT plus stand plus controller.   I'm presuming the BXT is $16-$20 k as separates?

 

I am musing about getting a pair of f12's and having some custom metal stands made whereby the F12 would sit on the stand directly below the Kii, so the time alignment wouldn't be such an issue.    I would look the have the stand build with a box under the F12.  The box is filled with sand/shot/what ev's to give it some heft.   Above the f12 would be the plate for the Kii3 to sit on.   Judging by your images Gibbo, I'm thinking the following rough dimensions..........

 

Kii 3 stand is 27.5"    F12 approx 16"    So 11" to 12" gap.  Maybe an 8" box for sand (and to disconnect sub from the floor and 4" gap b/t F12 and Kii 3.  

Just day dreaming stuff but with my room being 3 metres wide any sub placement would otherwise have to be infront or behind a kii 3 stand which would give time alignment a kick in the pants.

 

I would need to get a minidsp 2 x 4 hd to assimilate the F12's into the Kii's.  I have swapped emails with minidsp and now the Kii 3's have the high and low filters it is certainly workable.    

 

From minidsp

 

@Cazzesman
The way I'd see this working would be if the Kii is able to control a High Pass filter inside the DSP. Do you know if it does?
Let us explain why.

Source - > DDRC-22D doing full range correction (Sub + Main) - > Kii with High pass (to remove stress and not duplicate signal you'd have fed to your sub).
-> 2x4HD gets the Digital main full range corrected signal from DDRC-22D and does the LPF for the sub.

As long as you can do that, you will be set

 

I'm guestimating under $8,000 for 2 x F12, minidsp 2x4hd and metal stand.    Fair bit cheaper than the BXT.    What say you Gibbo?   $8,000 for what kind of improvement do you think?

 

The other possible plan is to have Paul at Redspade build two custom boxes for the F12, that take the place of the Kii stands and have the bottom half free to fill with sand etc.    More day dreaming.   That might be more aesthetically pleasing.  

 

As I have said.....ISO can send one abit loopy perhaps

 

Happy Kii 3 listening you lot.

 

Thoughts.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

[Ray H]

@cazzesman

 

Hey mate, hope you are well !when I purchased my BXT’s they were circa 28k from memory. I got a really good offer from Rom at Sonic Purity which made it impossible to resist the upgrade. So prior to the recent price rise a set of Kii3 & BXT was circa 50k, ie 22k forKii 3 and 28k for BXT’s. The new price is 31k for Kii3 and 36k for BXT so full RRP is 67k, quite a jump, but not surprising given the current fiscal climate. I can only soften that by saying if you are interested in the BXT’s contact Sonic Purity, they will provide their usual great service and no doubt be able to tailor pricing.

 

addendum, I would recommend Rythmik or Jl Audio Fathom’s as a good place to start IOT save some $ if the BXT isn’t palletable.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Ray H

[cazzesman]

Hi Ray,

 

Well you have nixxed my slim thought on the bxt at that price. .  And here was silly me thinking the price was for the complete package.

 

Alot of Rythmik subs in 36k.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[Tony B]

42 minutes ago, Ray H said:

@cazzesman

 

Hey mate, hope you are well !when I purchased my BXT’s they were circa 28k from memory. I got a really good offer from Rom at Sonic Purity which made it impossible to resist the upgrade. So prior to the recent price rise a set of Kii3 & BXT was circa 50k, ie 22k forKii 3 and 28k for BXT’s. The new price is 31k for Kii3 and 36k for BXT so full RRP is 67k, quite a jump, but not surprising given the current fiscal climate. I can only soften that by saying if you are interested in the BXT’s contact Sonic Purity, they will provide their usual great service and no doubt be able to tailor pricing.

 

addendum, I would recommend Rythmik or Jl Audio Fathom’s as a good place to start IOT save some $ if the BXT isn’t palletable.

Completely blown away at that price rise!

10% would be understandable with the poor AU$.

 

I would have thought that with the seriousness of Covid 19 some deals maybe had as not much is moving atm.

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

55 minutes ago, Ray H said:

22k forKii 3 and 28k for BXT’s. The new price is 31k for Kii3

40% increase for the Kii3…..

That's crazy

 

[cazzesman]

Glad I got my Kii's, stands and Controller 2nd hand for 1/2 the current rrp of just the Kii's.    

 

Happy dance.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

[gibbo9000]

4 hours ago, cazzesman said:

Gibbo I have been researching all manner of 10" and 12" subs.  Certainly the Rythmik Direct Servo F12 looks the ants pants.   Where did you end up purchasing your Rythmik F12 (Redspade or Audio Salon (both Paul and Richard are good folk)) and if I may be so bold............Cost? $3,000ish???

 

Gibbo do you think that in the time you have now had it, the F12 was worth the cost and integration with the Kii's.   Perception on improved sound quality after the bottom end pressure was removed from the Kii 3's????

Loving the logic @cazzesman  - just need to plan that big holiday and then cancel it in favour of BXTs !!  And good thinking on the integrated stands - could be quite creative with the design.

 

In terms of F12 addition, a qualified yes for me - the qualification being commitment to multiple Dirac curves.  For most listening (jazz, vocal etc.) the purist in me prefers crossover at 30Hz and the Dirac standard curve (2db linear fall from 20Hz to 20kHz from memory).  The integration is very clean and the sub does very little work, but you do do notice that little extra oomph on the occasions it is called on.  But there are some tracks (classical, organ . . and double bass involved (Musica Nuda, Jasper Hoiby etal)) where I use 50Hz crossover and either 4 or 6db linear fall from 20Hz to 20kHz in Dirac.  Then the added SPL and greater responsibility on the Sub adds noticeable depth.  I guess put simply it lets them support what is effectively greater bass boost.  The corollary is that the 50Hz crossover under the Dirac standard curve sounds almost the same as the 30Hz cross over version (which in turn means Dirac does its job well I think).  Anyway, hope that makes some sense.  Not quite a BXT, but still a good addition.  Pair would look and sound good.

F12 in standard case is 400mm wide, 400mm high (cabinet) + 25mm rubber feet, 450mm deep cabinet inc, grill + min 25mm behind for heat sink, cables etc.  Standard Kii stands are 670 + spikes.  Richard looked after me.  He had one in standard matt black case that seemed unpopular (but suits Kii stands perfectly) I got for a discount on his standard price of $1,800 at the time.  Paul from recollection was high $2k's in custom cabinet.

The 'alignment' challenge with the Kii's is that their 'exact' mode for Stereo creates around a 100ms signal processing delay that puts them well behind the sub.  My miniDSP SHD max delay on sub was 30ms so I had to go and buy another 70ms delay!  Almost Monty Python ish.   Have since learnt that the Open DRC products have up to 300ms delay.  For the time being I am using a Bluestream AD11AU from Radio Parts that brings it back within SHD correction range.

Can't fully recall your signal chain, but it is useful for me that the miniDSP SHD Studio switches Dirac front end curves and miniDSP rear end DSP functions (delay, X-overs) in parallel.  The minor annoyance is that my front end is all digital, but I need a DAC and the delay device on way to Sub.  Also took me a few attempts to learn how to use REW to align sub and Kii timing - but can help with that now I know.  Worth the effort.

 

Keep these creative juices flowing!

Gibbo

 

[cazzesman]

Hi again Gibbo,

 

Interesting thought on the Latency issue of the Kii 3's in Exact mode.     I see the Kii 3 website states a 90ms Latency delay in Exact.

 

The Minidsp 2x4hd Manual states the software max's out at 80ms adjustment.    Damn!!!     Will the human ear notice the 10ms difference between the sub and the rest? 

 

Any suggestions for an alternative to a minidsp 2x4hd that will except digital in and run the two subs with a better latency adjustment that will reach 90ms.

 

Something from Behringer maybe?????

 

https://www.behringer.com/Categories/Behringer/Signal-Processors/Loudspeaker-Management/DCX2496/p/P0B6H#googtrans(en|en)

 

Up to 500ms delay apparently.

 

All gets abit messy though digital input is AES and digital output from the Minidsp 22d is optical.   

 

Gibbo what is your audio chain that includes the Bluestream AD11AU???

 

I see the specs state.

Key Features
- In-line 2ch analogue audio delay with line-level volume control
- Supports 48KHz / 24 bit sample rates
- Selectable audio delay from 50ms - 1000ms (1 second)
    - 0ms - 500ms in steps of 50ms
    - 500ms - 1000ms in step is of 100ms
- Adjustable line level volume control from -75dB to 0dB
 

How does the unit go with 96/24 sample rates which is what I use through the Minidsp 22D and/or your SHD?

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by cazzesman

[gibbo9000]

Hi Cazzesman,
I had read about the delay but didn't think much about it until I started measuring and getting around 100ms difference - thought I had the measurement technique wrong and spent a couple of days working it through until I fathomed what was going on.  If my maths are correct, having the Kii's 10ms ahead of Sub is the same as having them around 3.5 metres in front of the sub.  With the Kii's precision I sense you would hear it, but worse for me you would know it wasn't right! 

I sense the best solution is the miniDSP OpenDRC-DA8 -- up to 3 seconds delay from my reading and digital in to analog out.  I didn't know about them at the time and will likely move to one.  At present I come out of miniDSP SHD-Studio as digital, through a Project DAC Box S2, then through Bluestream delay to my one channel sub.  Two subs would mean two Bluestreams for me.  All a bit messy.  OpenDRC-DA8 would put that all in one and avoid the additional A/D and D/A the Bluestream does.

Not sure what miniDSP shipping times are like at present.  I had a faulty Umik and the replacement posted on 18 March has only just arrived in Australia from the tracking updates.

Gibbo

[cazzesman]

Mr Gibbo

 

Your Opendrc  recommendation with the sharc 4x8 plugin (96hz) version looks spot on.   Opendrc has the spidif input.   Delay is 1500ms for the 96 version so all good.

 

Thanks for the research.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

[gibbo9000]

Good to hear it could work.  Real thanks go to @andyr who pointed it out to me in this thread: 

 

[cazzesman]

I'm having some discussion on the Minidsp forum.  Fingers crossed someone suggests a definitive answer.    I still think the OpenDRC DA8 provides the answer plus alot of other adjustment potential.

 

Regards Cazzesman