rel Subwoofer Integration

[Byron Scholar]

I'm running a pair of Monitor Audio Gold 100s and am looking at buying a sub for some proper oompf.

I've heard rave reviews of how well RELs integrate, but do they integrate better than a sub made by the same speaker brand? In particular Monitor Audio? If anyone has  had any experience with this, I would love to hear your insight.

[colinm1]

many people state REL indeed integrate well,

with many different brands

I had till recent a strata 5 with dynaudio c1

and it worked very well

really depends if you want hi fi (2 ch ),or home theatre type sound

I now use 2 subs , another issue altogether

 

 

[betty boop]

2 hours ago, Byron Bae said:

I'm running a pair of Monitor Audio Gold 100s and am looking at buying a sub for some proper oompf.

I've heard rave reviews of how well RELs integrate, but do they integrate better than a sub made by the same speaker brand? In particular Monitor Audio? If anyone has  had any experience with this, I would love to hear your insight.

dont have to match brands, and rel have always worked well to integrate with mains. particularly in many cases they are looked more as a woofer than sub woofer for extension and work well in that role.

 

ps monitor audio do make some really good subs to so I wouldnt eliminate them, and they would match in well aesthetically as well  

[Byron Scholar]

Sounds like I'll stick with my idea of getting REL. I do like the idea of a sub using a high input the same as your speakers.

[WorkinClassAudio]

I might be putting my pair of Rel s2 up for sale.  Keep an eye on Classifieds.  I got them to work with MG 20.7.

[WatchDoc]

Other standard advice for integration applies - run your sub a bit quieter and it'll integrate better. Can also play with the balance of the A/V Receiver vol output and the subwoofers gain to achieve the right level of integration and balance between thumping base and not standing out.

[A9X]

Unless you have a proper high pass for the L/R, they'll never integrate properly.

[davewantsmoore]

On 19/08/2018 at 6:28 PM, Byron Bae said:

I'm running a pair of Monitor Audio Gold 100s and am looking at buying a sub for some proper oompf.

I've heard rave reviews of how well RELs integrate, but do they integrate better than a sub made by the same speaker brand?

One brand "integrating" better than another is pretty well wishy-washy BS.   It's just about how you set up the woofer/speaker crossover.    You would expect manufacturers would design their mains and subs to blend together well - but this isn't always a good assumption  (and rooms also conspire to wreck the match anyways).

 

So that means getting the subwoofer to have a flat response.    This depends on where the subwoofer is, where the listener is, and any EQ applied to help (eg. your subwoofer might have EQ controls on it)

 

... and then getting the speaker and subwoofer to blend ("crossover") well.   This is what A9X is referring to.

 

You can either match the subwoofer (using the controls on the subwoofer) to the main speakers where they naturally play down to (reportedly Monitor Audio Gold 100 play down to 40Hz) .... or you can add a high pass filter (suggested by A9X) to the main speakers, and then match the subwoofer to that - this will take some bass load away from your main speakers, which will likely be better (assuming the sub is setup well)

 

 

 

[Boujar]

You won't know what really works without testing it in your room, as the room and positioning of the sub can make a huge difference. I ran an NHT 10" sub with my GR10's which worked great until I moved house. I was never able to integrate it well in the next place due to the shape of the room. I then ran a Sunfire True Sub with my GR20's which has worked well in my current room possibly because of the bass exiting the sub in multiple directions, making placement less critical. 

[lowpoke]

davewantsmoore speaks the truth. I can't see that the brand of sub makes much difference to 'integration'. I'd say whether you have the capacity for some adjustment in phase (0 or 180 just isn't going to be enough), high pass crossover point, crossover slope and of course gain. Only then will you be able to successfully dial your sub in. 

 

Something like this is what you need at a bare minimum:

 

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by lowpoke

[Nigel]

On 04/09/2018 at 8:29 AM, Boujar said:

You won't know what really works without testing it in your room, as the room and positioning of the sub can make a huge difference

Room is everything with bass...alright 90%....filter slopes helps, as does phase control

[almikel]

On 19/08/2018 at 11:01 PM, Byron Bae said:

I do like the idea of a sub using a high input the same as your speakers.

I've read this in a few threads recently, and apparently some sales people push it as something beneficial? 

I always regarded it as a bandaid when there were no line level outputs available on pre-amp being used.

The speaker level signal just goes through a voltage divider in the sub to bring it back to line level before amplifying it again in the sub amp.

What possible benefit could it have?

 

cheers

Mike

[davewantsmoore]

On 07/09/2018 at 10:14 AM, Nigel said:

Room is everything with bass...alright 90%....filter slopes helps, as does phase control

If you are inferring that room is 90% and speaker(woofer) is 10%, then I say absolutely not.    It's important to get the speed right independently of the room.    The room makes a huge contribution to modifying the source, but garbage in, garbage out.

[davewantsmoore]

55 minutes ago, almikel said:

I always regarded it as a bandaid when there were no line level outputs available on pre-amp being used.

What possible benefit could it have?

Some prefer this option so that the "character of the amplifier used for the speaker comes though".

 

55 minutes ago, almikel said:

The speaker level signal just goes through a voltage divider in the sub to bring it back to line level before amplifying it again in the sub amp.

It really depends on how the subwoofer amplifier is designed.    If it is designed from the ground up to work this way  (eg. of the opt of my head, Vandersteen) then it can work.

[Chazz]

Rhythmic Subs are also very good for music

[andyr]

3 hours ago, Chazz said:

Rhythmic Subs are also very good for music

+1!! 

 

Andy

 

[almikel]

I run 2 x Rythmik 12" drivers and 2 x Rythmik amps in a single large tapped horn sub - it sounds great whether it's playing movies or music - but all good subs with good integration sound good.

 

It's the integration part that's the tricky bit.

 

If you care about time alignment, then likely you need a solution that can delay your main speakers, as the crossover filters for a sub delay the sub so they "lag" your main speakers in time.

 

If you don't care too much about "proper" time alignment between mains and sub (and IMHO it's more important to achieve a smooth FR, so a few cycles lag between sub/mains to achieve a smooth FR is OK), then adjust the delay control on the sub to get the smoothest "in room" FR...

 

...but IMO good integration between sub and mains will always require a measurement rig and measurements - you can't do it by ear.

 

cheers

Mike

[AudioGeek]

How much delay do rhythmik sub amps Introduce?

[andyr]

17 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

How much delay do rhythmik sub amps Introduce?

 

AIUI, it varies with the '@ frequency' chosen for the LP slope.

 

Andy

 

[AudioGeek]

Thanks Andy. So how much delay would you expect under 80Hz?

Never really heard of timing being an issue with these subs

[davewantsmoore]

3 hours ago, AudioGeek said:

How much delay do rhythmik sub amps Introduce?

~zero ... aside from the built in filters (which are just a standard part of making a crossover - all filters have delay, and so should be seen as a "problem")

[Satanica]

4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

~zero ...

Fact or presumption?

[davewantsmoore]

5 hours ago, Satanica said:

Fact or presumption?

My presumption is the amplifier does not internally use DSP (ie. convert from analogue to digital, then back again).    If it did, not only would they state that, but they would offer features enabled by the DSP (like delay, and many more filter options).

 

 

An analogue amplifier (which I've presumed it is) has an input to output delay which is so (very!) small that it can be ignored for a speaker  (so especially for a subwoofer).

[almikel]

13 hours ago, AudioGeek said:

How much delay do rhythmik sub amps Introduce?

Interesting question, as the Rythmik amps incorporate the circuit for the active feedback to better control the driver - I'm not sure how this circuit works, but I wouldn't have expected it to cause additional delay

5 hours ago, Satanica said:

Fact or presumption?

The presumption is that if the feedback circuit caused additional delay, it couldn't help maintain driver control.

It works more like negative feedback in an amplifier, rather than a filter

 

Excluding the active feedback control, the Rythmik crossover will cause delay as any crossover filter will - depending on slope and frequency - the maths is solid.

 

Mike

Edited September 14, 2018 by almikel

[almikel]

10 hours ago, AudioGeek said:

Thanks Andy. So how much delay would you expect under 80Hz?

Never really heard of timing being an issue with these subs

exactly the same as any other filter of the same slope and frequency.

All filters cause delay - it's just that the delay increases with increasing filter slope, and reducing frequency (delay is inversely proportional to frequency), so it makes a bigger difference at sub frequencies.

 

I'm sure there's delay calculators on the googleweb - but some points to note:

• for IIR non-linear phase filters (analog and DSP), the delay is variable (non zero Group Delay) depending on frequency, but the variable delay is typically less than FIR linear phase filters
• for FIR linear phase filters (only possible with DSP), the Group Delay is zero, so the delay across all frequencies is constant, but the delay is more than IIR filters, and requires more compute power (filter "taps") the steeper the filter and the lower the frequency. The propagation delay for the "compute" part is still infinitesimal compared to the inherent filter delay defined by physics

cheers

Mike

Edited September 14, 2018 by almikel