wooferocau Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Spizz said: I see you mention that the Z1 is still a better projector over the NX9. Also that the contrast on the Z1 is better. Is this down to the laser on the Z1 or other attributes? Is it once you go laser you can never go back? In my opinion the YES the Z1 is a superior projector.... BUT it should be, its costs a hell of alot more than the NX9. The NX9 is a gem..... it provides a fair proportion of the Z1,s performance at alot less cost. The Laser Dimming i think is the most underestimated feature of the Z1, it levels the playing field contrast wise even though the "Native" isnt as high as some other projectors. Also, as you would expect ......the Z1 has reserves of brightness that the NX9 just hasnt got. Yes, once you have had a Laser light source, its VERY hard to overlook it. As stated, if i didnt have the Z1....the NX9 would be a permanent fixture in my theatre room....if that is not a compliment to it then i dont know what is! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo1972 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Spizz said: I see you mention that the Z1 is still a better projector over the NX9. Also that the contrast on the Z1 is better. Is this down to the laser on the Z1 or other attributes? Is it once you go laser you can never go back? I've been offered a demo Z1 (with minimal hours) at quite a significant discount. But I declined for two reasons. I want to get a new Stewart Filmscreen 'scope screen (cost of which will take me from an N7 to the Z1 price offered, and a bit more), and when I'm ready later on I'll get a new projector and I'll have both the new scope Stewart Filmscreen 'scope screen already installed and will be in a position to buy a laser illuminated projector. That said, the Z1 is a pretty special projector....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spizz Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 8, 2018 Author Share Posted December 8, 2018 from mori with a swiss comparison done between VW 760, 870, N9X interesting he compares the 570 as 760 without the laser. though 570 does have some other updates which will be good if they get around to implementing on the 760 to take it to 770 or something.... perhaps thats for next year "Actually my time was even better than I had expected. After a short trip and traveling trough some of Switzerland's most picturesque regions together with a friend of mine we could see a VW760, VW870 and a N9X. Side by side in a completely optimized black room. Screen material was about gain 1.0 and its width was only 2.5 meter. There were not too many people there. I think hardly more than 10 at the same time. But as a Swiss I'd say: quality beats quantity. Ekki Schmitt from C4H was also there. So I knew the projecotrs would be set up as good as possible. Every aspect that makes up a great picture was analyzed with appropriate test and demo material. Everything was tried to squeeze the best out of these beamers. All settings were transparent. Any question was answered and any suggestion for a setting followed. Beeing a rather experienced user I appreciated that tremendously. Now I guess most people - particularly in the VW995 thread - would probably like to know whether the VW995 is worth the higher price compared to the 760 and also NX9. I think everyone has to answer that question individually based on his setup at home. What I could say as a general and summarizing remark: we all agreed yesterday that in a blind test most people including us would most likely to have a very difficult time to tell which projector was actually running. In most cases I could only tell it was the 870 because it was brighter than the other 2. With HDR I could tell it was the NX9 as it projected slightly better blacks in low ADL scenes than the 2 Sony. But unfortunatelly the NX9 was also the darkest in mixed scenes. Sometimes I wished also to see better differentiation close to black. Could you tell the better lense ? Yes, but only in still pictures but not during a running movie. Interestingly: we compared a Windows folder with several file names. Tiny black fonts on white background. Text was more distinct and better to read on both of the Sony. Even at the edge. However if you did a test with white writings on dark background the NX9 was better. So much to the better lense ... Is the Digital Focus Optimizer any good ? No from what i could see. It is rather adding artifacts than improving sharpness. The lense 870 does not need that IMO. So rather a marketing gag. Which reminds me directly of 8-shift. I could not see any benefit when engaged with the NX9. Generally and from a personal point of view I would have liked the brightness level for HDR material to be higher than what I saw yesterday. This applies to all 3 of them. The 760 and 870 were run at Laser 100 for HDR and the JVC at high lamp mode. Personaly I use a screen of gain 1.3 to 1.4 (about). An Oppo was used and having a Panasonic ub9004 at home and having seen MadVR feeding a VW760 I think there would some potential left. But it was the same for all projectors yesterday. The Sony have the advantage of the Contrast Enhancer that helps with brightness. Ekki is using that with excellent results for HDR. The filter of the JVC costs about 21% brightness - too much for me. I clearly prefer the Sony approach without filter but less DCI-P3 coverage. Therefore with the JVC I would disable the filter. We had a look at low ADL scenes. For example The Revenant end of chapter 4. Here you could tell that contrast was best with the NX9 despite diffentiation still could be better. The 870 was not far behind - particularly when we disabled the filter with the NX9. Of course this leads directly to the question of native contrast numbers. Ekki announced some measurements to be published by him pretty soon. I don't kow what he has measured but I would guess that the native contrast of the JVc will be around 1:30 K without any iris tricks. Some data that were already published by some reviewres look at least reasonable to me. Native contrast of 870 / 760 will likely be identical . Only dynamic contrast will be different due to the iris. For ANSI contrast figues I am particularly curious. In Sitzerland the VW570 costs 8.3 K CHF, the VW760 costs CHF 15 K, The NX9 is 20K and the 870 is 26 K. I exspect the VW570 to deliver about the same picture as the 760. So the laser is about 7 K CHF. Based on that the pricing here seems reasonable to me at least. Personaly I would never go back to a lamp based projector. One of the reason is the loudness. The NX9 on high lamp was clearly too loud for me and my setup. It is not better than the X7000 that I had. This was a bit disappointing considering the much bigger sitze. Of course still not so bad like the Z1 but inaccetable for me on high lamp mode. There is also some noise coming from the iris of the NX9 but this might be a preseries related issue. So the 870 confirmed my first impression of a well balanced projector with hardly any major deficiences. It squizzess out some potential that the 760 has left. From a personal point of view as a VW760 owner the practical value of the improvements are rather neglectable. My only major point for potential improvement is that you can not set the iris to a user definded value. This would be a highly welcome feature for SDR material from my point of view. Maybe next generation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 Interesting. Maybe the NX9 without the E-shift glass in front would get you Z1 clarity? Woofer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minireza Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 The one thing I find interesting whenever I read comparisons (and I could be wrong here) by people on forums, there is always an element of bias toward a brand they favour from the outset. I really hope to see what Vincent says in comparison between the jvc n7 and the Sony 570. I like the factual evidenced based approach he provides on all of his discussions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 8, 2018 Author Share Posted December 8, 2018 26 minutes ago, minireza said: The one thing I find interesting whenever I read comparisons (and I could be wrong here) by people on forums, there is always an element of bias toward a brand they favour from the outset. I really hope to see what Vincent says in comparison between the jvc n7 and the Sony 570. I like the factual evidenced based approach he provides on all of his discussions. I agree..... the only unfortunate thing with vincent though, while comes across more objective ... is he rarely ever does comparative reviews... which is a pity as gives frame of reference. he has called out the things such as posterisation with the sony though so hopefully he does also call out what ever faults the new jvc have. ps the only one i have come across with comparitive and objective views is kris deering from sound vision magazine. he tends to tell as it is. look forward to his comparative comments when he has had time with both. I suspect both sony and jvc have their strengths as do failings not only as brands and their implementations but also in-between each model. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 looks like @Javshasnt posted here but looks like he noticed in vincents sony 570es review "coffee staining" as he called it being again exhibitted by the sony panels... this along with the posterisation (banding) that vincent mentioned (as screen shotted by zombie below) are both a pity to see in the sony, you'd think not being brand new designs more iterative update, would have been pretty much sorted by now. but look like something sony needs to fix. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 I wonder if it's something to do with the xbox he was using? So it came up in a game but not in a movie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minireza Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 I'm not concerned about the gaming posterisation in all honesty. But coffee staining, well I don't even drink coffee Hahaha so definatley don't want my projector coffee stained! Regardless, 570 vs n7 battle will be great to watch. The winner will get my money! (I've seen 570 twice in person and very impressed. I had zoomed right in to get idea of what my 170 or 180 inch screen will look like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, minireza said: I'm not concerned about the gaming posterisation in all honesty. But coffee staining, well I don't even drink coffee Hahaha so definatley don't want my projector coffee stained! Regardless, 570 vs n7 battle will be great to watch. The winner will get my money! (I've seen 570 twice in person and very impressed. I had zoomed right in to get idea of what my 170 or 180 inch screen will look like I am not sure so limited to gaming, the 285es has history of this as sony down res to 8bit... resulting in the phenomenon. 4k 50/60 you can get in movies, but a great slab of 4k ATV sourced material and streaming sourced material is all 4k 50/60, https://www.projectorcentral.com/sony-vpl-vw285es-4k-projector-review.htm "UPDATE Re 4K HDR 60p (11/28/17): The VW285ES has a bandwidth of 13.5 Gbps. This is sufficient for all 4K HDR 10-bit 24 fps movie material. In theory it would also be sufficient for 4K HDR 10-bit 60 fps with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. Unfortunately, this projector will down-res all 4K HDR 60 fps material to 8-bit regardless of chroma subsampling. This has resulted in banding artifacts, typically in gaming sources. (See Limitations below.)" I think it was hoped with the 18gbps chip set upgrade be no need to down res to 8bit, but quite possibly thats still going on for some reason ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 The 285 is finished Al.. The 270 (295ES in the USA) has 18Gbps.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 12 minutes ago, oztheatre said: The 285 is finished Al.. The 270 (295ES in the USA) has 18Gbps.. I know ! As I made the point if you read back you’d hope the 18gbps would have fixed but clearly hasn’t for the 570es if Vincent still seeing it. Must be something else going on. Not sure if effect of the reality correction processing or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, betty boop said: I know ! As I made the point if you read back you’d hope the 18gbps would have fixed but clearly hasn’t for the 570es if Vincent still seeing it. Must be something else going on. Not sure if effect of the reality correction processing or something. Nothing is clear at this stage Al. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooferocau Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) X9900 versus NX9 Spent most of this weekend doing comparisons of the X9900 and the NX9. In total 12 persons other than myself came to view.....some being HT enthusiasts such as myself, and some just curious. NX9 and X9900 are at 20ft throw. I did take CONTRAST readings for both projectors... NOTE!!! The readings are an indication ONLY! I have no way of verifying their accuracy...but they give an idea of the 2 projectors.. Used Iris positions...."0" "-7" "-15" X9900 Iris.. (0) 35850:1 ( -7) 60526:1 ( -15) 149180:1 NX9 Iris.. (0) 20200:1) ( -7) 38300:1 ( -15) 92.665:1 At 20ft throw onto my 143" scope with BT2020 iris fully open.. X9900 298 Lux NX9 305 Lux Contrast...... you can debate "till the cows come home " about the NX9 being "inferior" contrast wise .....in real viewing its only on a VERY small amount of content you see any deficiency compared to the X9900.. Resolution / Sharpness / Detail.... Anyone debating that there is "Very little" OR "No difference" between the E-shift 1080P and the "Native 4K / 8K E-shift" really needs their eyes checked!! Simple as that ...there is a noticeable difference. Link to some images i took ...ignore colour/tone ...just look at resolution please... https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c6f6fzbda...2M5u4cLSa?dl=0 The shot from Interstellar X9900-NX9 Tiff is a shot with the NX9 displaying the image ......half of the X9900 lens is covered, half exposed so half is the black floor of the X9900 ( left side) the other is the NX9 ( right side) .....the pic doesn't show it 100% as in real viewing you CAN see the slight advantage of the X9900....but its not huge! Of the 12 persons that viewed the 2 projectors 10 preferred the NX9 by a margin due to its detail and sharpness...... 2 thought they were both good! Nobody noticed any "major" contrast differences. Hope its of interest to some.. Edited December 9, 2018 by wooferocau 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minireza Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 @wooferocau thank you for taking the time to post. The difference in detail is astounding! I'm viewing on a 40 inch Phillips 4K Monitor (TN Panel 8 bit); and the detail difference is night and day. Looks like a photo shot at native ISO of 200 versus something shooting at iso 6400 (that's my analogy). Can't wait to see these in person! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 great choice of scene too woofer... I remember using the sicario shot for police car, great one for comparisons. though only looking on my laptop have no doubt the contrast and lens capability of the nx9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo1972 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 As loathe as I am to comment on pictures taken of projected images, the increased amount of detail in the picture the NX9 projects over the X9900 is quite obvious (especially when A/B'ing "Nogales, Mexico" on my desktop PC's Acer Predator XB321HK 32" 4K monitor - IPS panel - with images at 50%). Whether that increase in detail can be resolved at normal seating distance, for me, remains to be seen (pun very much intended!). I won't comment on contrast differences, I don't think a photo would be able to convey any difference easily, it's something better seen in the flesh, so I'll take your word for it that the difference for the most part is only noticeable in some limited situations. Woofer thanks once again for this invaluable insight and information regarding the new native 4K JVC projectors 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppybob Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 As loathe as I am to comment on pictures taken of projected images, the increased amount of detail in the picture the NX9 projects over the X9900 is quite obvious (especially when A/B'ing "Nogales, Mexico" on my desktop PC's Acer Predator XB321HK 32" 4K monitor - IPS panel - with images at 50%). Whether that increase in detail can be resolved at normal seating distance, for me, remains to be seen (pun very much intended!). I won't comment on contrast differences, I don't think a photo would be able to convey any difference easily, it's something better seen in the flesh, so I'll take your word for it that the difference for the most part is only noticeable in some limited situations. Woofer thanks once again for this invaluable insight and information regarding the new native 4K JVC projectors [emoji4]Likewise Woofer thanks for posting and keeping us updated. I too looked at images on my 24” monitor and definitely a difference in image detail. Would kill to see the real thing especially your Z1 too, haven’t had the opportunity to see that either. [emoji106] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 9 hours ago, betty boop said: I know ! As I made the point if you read back you’d hope the 18gbps would have fixed but clearly hasn’t for the 570es if Vincent still seeing it. Must be something else going on. Yes Al ; bandwidth is linked to banding so Vincents comments make sense . Sony has tweaked the processor from 8 to 10bit processing from the last iteration but maybe not enough ; iirc our JVC'S have 12bit processing - no bare minimum for those 12 bit upscaled Panasonic signals Quote The D-ILA (LCoS) panels used by JVC support 12-bit color resolution and the signal processing within these projectors also support the 12-bit depth. Quote It also touts high dynamic range, thanks to HDMI 18Gbps compatibility and 4K 60P 10-bit processing. Plus, it features a new input lag reduction mode for gamers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 7 hours ago, wooferocau said: Hope its of interest to some.. a good juxtapose created by markmon at avs using woofers nx9 vs x9900 shots https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxtapose/latest/embed/index.html?uid=d0086dfe-fb98-11e8-9dba-0edaf8f81e27 a big call but this sicario shot comparison reminds of the uhd vs blu-ray comparison i did and posted using this very same scene. and its a great scene to show off the differences not only of detail far and close but also shadow detail, contrast, colours etc. look t the hills, the detail in things in the fore ground even the ground. the text on the car, the details around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javs Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 8 hours ago, betty boop said: a good juxtapose created by markmon at avs using woofers nx9 vs x9900 shots https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxtapose/latest/embed/index.html?uid=d0086dfe-fb98-11e8-9dba-0edaf8f81e27 a big call but this sicario shot comparison reminds of the uhd vs blu-ray comparison i did and posted using this very same scene. and its a great scene to show off the differences not only of detail far and close but also shadow detail, contrast, colours etc. look t the hills, the detail in things in the fore ground even the ground. the text on the car, the details around. Not so fast... https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2996950-new-jvc-rs3000-nx9-rs2000-n7-rs1000-n5-native-4k-projectors-anticipation-thread-367.html#post57244656 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 35 minutes ago, Javs said: Not so fast... https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2996950-new-jvc-rs3000-nx9-rs2000-n7-rs1000-n5-native-4k-projectors-anticipation-thread-367.html#post57244656 should I pull out my x7000 screen shot of the same scene too good comparative shot ! that scene will turn iconic screen shots do help to give some idea. but no wont drag out mine as tough comparing different setting/s, different cameras screens etc. if anything i'll say is any one of these will be even better in person than any camera can capture. still do hope someone gets around to doing a n7 vs x7x00/x9x00. even if I were getting an n7 not something for instance I can do as woofer as setup so very much if someone else has the capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minireza Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 @Javs how come you will no longer get the N7? Are you buying a Sony instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, minireza said: @Javs how come you will no longer get the N7? Are you buying a Sony instead? not to answer for javs, but unless something changed, he has posted he is just taking some time out ie skip this current gen... I know a few who are doing the same 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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