A dedicated room for hifi is finally getting there....

[AccuTidal]

Hi Guys...,

 

I have finally able to appreciate my electronics in this new room. The room is an outer-building in a corner of my backyard,  and approximately 8.9m x 6m x 32c. It is double bricks with 75mm cavity and within the cavity there are insulation for sound and thermal..... The concrete slab was insanely at 210mm thick double steel re-reinforced, for which at time the Builder strongly criticised and disagreed to my demanded specifications..... Typically for residential, and especially for granny flat type buildings, the slab is often at 80mm to 90mm maximum. 

The majority floor space is allocated for listening room. The building is also consisting of a store room for surplus audio gears/electronics(pretty sure we all have a room alike elsewhere), and most importantly a wet area for the convenience post the red fruits juice..... , consumption/intoxication without the need to inconveniently ransack to the main building/home.

 

It was a struggle for me to get the room to sound right over the last few months after completion, due to too many hard surfaces...., however, I think the sound is getting better and appears to be satisfactory at this stage. Of course - it could be better but hey I am unable to justify mega dollars spent into treatment panels....., blindly.

 

Throughout this journey, I have found; speakers position relatively to the room and sweet-spot play significance role in SQ improvement. I feel - doing this alone (when I got it right) is the best upgrade to my setup ever...., and much much more affordable/noticeable relatively to swapping the power cables/interconnects/changing DAC........ The above all else, the physical of the built room and acoustic treated panels for all first point of reflection areas from the speakers relatively to the sweet listening spot, did elevate my entire setup to many levels above unanticipated or unprecedentedly anticipated. Extremely pleased with the outcome from this built. Come to think of it, the entire building from scratch to finish  cost less then a pair of new set of speakers..., e.g; TAD reference 1, Magico S7, or Rockport mid level speakers.....   

 

Will provide more photos at later stage..., and I look to host a get together for the local in due course..... to collaborate more constructive ideas.... 

 

Best,

Chanh. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Chanh

[MrC]

You have one serious room there.  I would suggest that the you will get a good benefit from carpeting the floor to reduce the area of hard surfaces.  Also the back wall will be causing a good deal of reflected sound, reducing the coherency of the sound.  You have clearly invested in good equipment and with further room treatment, the sound will no doubt improve. 

[theking]

Congratulations with the dedicated room. I am so jealous here.

You have nice collection of gears too, could you list them?

Where did you get those gryphon mattress?

[Guest Sime]

Not bad

[AccuTidal]

On 09/05/2018 at 4:21 AM, msetjadi said:

Congratulations with the dedicated room. I am so jealous here.

You have nice collection of gears too, could you list them?

Thanks msetjadi. 

 

I think the gears are very ordinary in contrast to some I know in the circle. Certainly looking forward to future upgrade when fund permits..... 

 

Nevertheless - happy to list them but certainly embarrassing about it...., pls don't amuse too much. 

Accuphase PS-1230 (mostly powering the upstream components only).

For Digital server: I have my very own diy builts, courstesy to Tasso's initiative.  

Accuphase DP-900. 

Accuphase DC-950.

Technics SL1000 MK3, with Kuzma 313 VTA and Accuphase AC-5 attached. (I also have Pioneer PL70 mk2 for sale) 

Audia Flight Phono 

Vitus SL-01 Preamps (Currently looking to upgrade this component, if any interest pls send me your offer.., you might never know?)

Gryphon Antileon Signature 

Magico S5s 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Chanh

[theking]

Magico S5 is excellent speaker, with gryphon amplification, i can imagine would be fantastic.

You need to make video and post

[AccuTidal]

38 minutes ago, msetjadi said:

Magico S5 is excellent speaker, with gryphon amplification, i can imagine would be fantastic.

You need to make video and post

Will do..., when i get more spare time... 

Gryphon made/makes fantastic poweramps..., very neutral and honest sounding without coloration. The speed of low bass notes are phenomenon.  Magico makes fantastic speakers too..., very transparent with amazing speed and resolutions. If the fund permits, I would consider a pair of Gryphon Mehsphito Solos to power the upgrade pair of speakers, Magico M6. For the time being..., this combo will be in my wish-list. Otherwise - Mephisto Solos with Rockport Lyra. 

 

Just so happened that when i brought this up to my Mrs - the idea was quickly washed down brutally.....   

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8i6hf-magico-m6-priced-to-sell-indistinguishable-from-new-full-range 

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

On 08/05/2018 at 10:33 AM, MrC said:

You have one serious room there.  I would suggest that the you will get a good benefit from carpeting the floor to reduce the area of hard surfaces. 

I don't think in such a large room, more HF absorption would be desirable.

 

... but I would agree with sitting further away from the back wall if possible  (even if the listening distance, or the speaker distance to front wall, needed to be shortened).

 

Assuming the reflection from the rear wall can be made low/long enough .... then I would concentrate anything further added to the room that would absorb mid/high to the front wall.

[MrC]

Hard surface floors are a large negative for the sound.  It is not so much the HF absorption, he needs to DIFFUSE the reflections on his back wall ....  The OP clearly has the funds given the gear that he has in this room.  In terms of bang for buck improvement, room treatment is the key.  I didn't believe this until I got to hearing the difference treating my HT room made.

Edited May 9, 2018 by MrC

[davewantsmoore]

22 minutes ago, MrC said:

Hard surface floors are a large negative for the sound.

A rug(s) fixes that.    My suggestion was not to carpet significant amounts of the room   (ie. only consider the direct path between speaker and listener).

 

You can see the effects on any simple room model - it's a lot of carpet (if you carpet the whole room this size), and will skew the decay very much.

 

23 minutes ago, MrC said:

he needs to DIFFUSE the reflections on his back wall

The goal (if possible) is to make the reflection from the rear wall later.    Diffusion does not address that.

 

If the reflection can't be made late enough .....  then it's good to reduce it in level, and ensure that there are no strong specific reflections.    Diffuser can help that --- so it is a good "Plan B".

 

28 minutes ago, MrC said:

room treatment is the key

I don't disagree, but it has to be done very specifically for the problems at hand, to get the best result.

[MrC]

32 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

A rug(s) fixes that.    My suggestion was not to carpet significant amounts of the room   (ie. only consider the direct path between speaker and listener).

 

You can see the effects on any simple room model - it's a lot of carpet (if you carpet the whole room this size), and will skew the decay very much.

 

The goal (if possible) is to make the reflection from the rear wall later.    Diffusion does not address that.

 

If the reflection can't be made late enough .....  then it's good to reduce it in level, and ensure that there are no strong specific reflections.    Diffuser can help that --- so it is a good "Plan B".

 

I don't disagree, but it has to be done very specifically for the problems at hand, to get the best result.

OK ... so we agree in principle.

[mtf]

Looking good Chanh but you need to hurry up and get that turntable going so we  can spin some black discs

[AccuTidal]

5 hours ago, mtf said:

Looking good Chanh but you need to hurry up and get that turntable going so we  can spin some black discs

Thanks! I too can’t wait for the right arm to surface... Seriously... this Analogue world is much more complicate and massive learning curve then I had anticipated.... 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Chanh

[AudioGeek]

Nice! Congrats, loves like a fantastic space to me.

[Tweaky]

9 hours ago, MrC said:

Hard surface floors are a large negative for the sound.  It is not so much the HF absorption, he needs to DIFFUSE the reflections on his back wall ....  The OP clearly has the funds given the gear that he has in this room.  In terms of bang for buck improvement, room treatment is the key.  I didn't believe this until I got to hearing the difference treating my HT room made.

That is true, but if the room is the wrong dimensions, your going to have bigger problems that no matter how much treatment you throw at it, just won't sound good.

If it's a room for a specific function, like this one is, better to alter the room dimensions with a false wall or two, then treat to get the max out of it.

 

See this video about the building of the new state of the art 301recording studios in Sydney...from 6:10 where Jochen Veith from JV acoustics is being interviewed about treating the rooms.

 

[Mendes]

This room and system is pretty dam good as it is, sure you can tweak a bit more out of it with more well thought out room treatment , but would be end game for many.

 

I love the tuning stone Chanh.........will catch again soon...

 

 

[Tweaky]

If a dedicated room, it's a ONCE FIX to sort it.

 

If you don't, then it might lead to a never ending chain of component swapping trying to 'Find" that elusive sound your after, which ultimately is a MUCH more expensive way of getting to the end result, especially when swapping speakers.

 

Just run a simple program like room cal to see where your problem frequencies will be for your room dimension, then work from there.

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

[I suspect you might have already to a extent] unless your current 'Treatment's' are a guesstimate based on photos of others setup's.....tricky stuff, room treatments, what works in one room with identical dimensions can sound bloody awful in another using different speakers.

 

EDIT: Actually I've just had a re-look of the original photos of the room from the speakers back to the listening position.

 

Imagine playing Snooker or Pool, any acute 45% angles are going to reflect the ball from cushion to cushion,  the same happens with sound and walls.

You have treated the walls behind your speakers, but not behind your listening position, which considering the amount of toe-in you have your speakers positioned at, is where you are going to get the first reflections that will give you your sense of ambience.

Also it's the top corners of any room that are the most problematic, you have 3 flat surfaces meeting, reduce that interaction is the best 'Least' sound treatment you can do for any room, but I can't see anything like that here....close, and nearly there, but the room treatment doesn't seem to bear any merit to what might be needed.....you will need treatment behind the listening chair to balance the sound, at the top corners at least.....pity the door is situated where it is, as I'd tend to at least partially replicate what you have behind the speakers in that corner, and it's opposite side.

 

You see a lot of information about room treatments that are a , TBH, a bit wonky, they are half arsed and mean well but don't really do what is needed.

It's when you get to the PRO level, Monitoring rooms/ Mastering studios, that's the sort of 'Room' you are ultimately after.

Sound on Sound magazine has had plenty of articles about sorting a room for this purpose, I suggest reading some of their free to read articles in their huge online archive.

The best sort of informed info you will get....a example of many on the subject at the link below

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/monitoring-acoustic-treatment

 

Still, a very enviable setup, that can only be improved with room treatments.

In all honesty, I think you would be wasting both your money and time changing any components.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Tweaky

[AccuTidal]

Many thanks @Tweaky for your advices.... 

 

The rear wall behind the listening position(s) is inundated with acoustic foams, there are approx 150mm thickness of foams and along with two stack of bass traps on either side at edges of each two door ways, entry and door to storeroom. I will take a photo to show later this evening. 

 

As for the panels mounting to front wall, I used a 1.8m x 0.5m mirror to see the first reflection point from speakers to listening position.  Once the reflection potion is identified, that is where i placed the acoustic panels as per the photo.  This applied to all first reflection point to all surfaces. In other word, I have panels on the ceiling, side walls, front wall, and the floor has a long piece of rug to also cover the same principle. Again - will post more actual photos later tonight. 

 

A mate has also passed on to me an instrument, which I have not got time to read the operation manual. It is called Clio..., basically - i weep the whole room from a microphone, where the instrument is connecting direct to the power amps and also Firewire to a computer with its software for the calibration and sweep for frequencies response.... Can post a photo of it if require? 

 

 

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

12 hours ago, Tweaky said:

That is true, but if the room is the wrong dimensions, your going to have bigger problems that no matter how much treatment you throw at it, just won't sound good.

 

I don't see any reason to change the room dimensions, unless you can identify a more specific problem (ie. what about the room dimensions could be changed to imrpove anything? - I put it to you, basically nothing ... unless there is some horrible modal effect that I've missed picking up on)

 

Moving the listener/source however.... is a big deal 

 

11 hours ago, Tweaky said:

.you will need treatment behind the listening chair to balance the sound

 

This is potentially 'small room' thinking.   In a room this size, the option presents itself to leave the rear reflection in place.  This is a very good thing, as long as the reflection is delayed enough.

 

Room treatment, unless very carefully deisnged for a specific problems - is drastically over rated IMO.     Audiophiles see a lot of it, becuase audiophile rooms typically have lots of specific problems (they are too small, and the speakers have poor axial response/directivity).

 

25 minutes ago, Chanh said:

The rear wall behind the listening position(s) is inundated with acoustic foams, there are approx 150mm thickness of foams and along with two stack of bass traps on either side at edges of each two door ways, entry and door to storeroom. I will take a photo to show later this evening. 

Ahh, I see.

 

I would suggest to you that this is perhap not a good idea.

 

If you can sit far enough away from the rear wall, then you do not want to absorb the rear reflection.

 

The front wall is the oposite.    These reflections can never be delayed enough wrt the direct sound, and so they should perhaps be absorbed.

 

Sidewall treatment is very very dependant on distance, angle and the speaker coverage pattern.... so there is no universal solution at all.

 

The 'tri corners' as suggested by tweaky, are a very good place to put panels - and probbaly the only place I would generally recommend, if anywhere.

 

29 minutes ago, Chanh said:

It is called Clio..., basically - i weep the whole room from a microphone, where the instrument is connecting direct to the power amps and also Firewire to a computer with its software for the calibration and sweep for frequencies response.... Can post a photo of it if require? 

Clio is an accoustic measurement system (like all the others).

 

It will give you data to quanitfy the sorts of things I am talking about.   Ideally you would look at:

 

Plot of the decay time in the room - to confirm that it is even  (eg. whether or not my advice for "don't put carpet everywhere" is correct)

 

See where the reflections occur in time  (althogh you can just work these out with a calaculator too - no accoustic measurement necessary) .... to understand things like, how delayed is the rear reflection, and where should you sit, and if the rear wave truly does need to be absorbed.     You might need to cover up your significant rear absorbotion if you want to measaure this though (I'd just use a calculator to work out the reflection time).

 

 

As always, be careful what (if any) correction you apply with EQ to the speaker based on a measurement with a clio (or similar) .... as where and how you measure will drasdtically affect the measurement data.

 

 

 

 

[Tweaky]

OK Chanh, I was just going by the photos you posted.

It seemed a bit strange to me that [ judging by the photos posted] that you had only treated behind the speakers,.

Now that you have elaborated a bit more about the unseen treatments it's starting to make sense.

 

Davewantsmoore has a good point about over treating a room as well, you can go too far the other way.

I've seen photos of other peoples setups at this forum where this seems to have happened, I don't know what the methodology, if any, was behind how they got to that point, I can mentally imagine that those rooms would suck the life out of the music, I can only guess they have seen photos of treatment in studio vocal booths and thought that was the way to go for playback as well.

[davewantsmoore]

5 hours ago, Tweaky said:

It seemed a bit strange to me that [ judging by the photos posted] that you had only treated behind the speakers

This is exactly what I'd recommend.

 

Additional would be in the tri-corners (although perhaps not? in a room this size) ... I would, althogh I don't like it visually.

Additional would be first reflection points, if needed... eg. with low directivity speaker.

 

 

Moving listener forwards (and moving the speakers accordingly), and removing treatment behind the listener would be by far the best progress from here..... rather than "additional treatment".

 

5 hours ago, Tweaky said:

Davewantsmoore has a good point about over treating a room as well, you can go too far the other way.

 

It's just about making sure the treatment is actually solving specific problems that are in the room ..... due to the size of this room, it's quite different, due to the longer delays, and lower reverberant field.

 

[AccuTidal]

Here are few more photos of the actual room at this point in time. Futute rearrange will depend further inputs.... 

Do you think I should place another canvas of the same size at rear wall? 

 

Thanks for reading and appreciate for your advices/inputs - as always...! 

 

Chanh. 

 

[frednork]

Great looking room @Chanh , not to mention the gear. Once you have run Clio it will hopefully be more apparent what you may need. More importantly are you happy with how it sounds?

Edited May 11, 2018 by frednork

[qwerter]

Great to see your room progressing! How is the sound?

[AccuTidal]

Thanks @frednork and @qwerter...!

 

Certainly can record a video passage via my iPhone tonight once the kids are tucked into bed. Any interest of a particulate track/artist/album?