SGR Audio Owners & Discussion Thread

[Young Skywalker]

Andy,

It is hard to believe that you were not trying to make a grand point and stir up ill feeling with this question on yet another SGR thread.

What proportion of the world's high end speaker manufacturers do you suppose source their speaker cabinets from Asia? My guess would be more than 95%. BMW and VW have moved much of their production from Germany into places like the USA and South Africa for their more affordable models but I don't think it has impacted upon either company's sales figures. At the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure that regardless of where a particular "component" may come from that it meets a certain level of quality and reproducibility. Those who know the crew from SGR would understand that the standard is incredibly high and that cutting corners is not an option regardless of whether parts of the finished product come from the workshop in Warrandyte, from Canada, from Asia, from Germany or wherever. Is the SGR Illuminator not Australian because most of its drivers come from ScanSpeak in Denmark? Is an Aslan loudspeaker not Australian because it uses Mundorf crossover components sourced from Germany? I think I have made my point.

Looking at your allegations of "false advertising" we should analyse just what goes into manufacturing a loudspeaker, or an active loudspeaker in this case. Someone has to design the cabinet both inside and out using CAD and shape optimisation software (that would be Stuart), someone has to build that cabinet (in the case of the CX series that would be the same company who makes 95% of the world's high end speaker cabinets), someone has to design the drivers from the ground up and then find someone who will make them to spec time after time after time (that would be Stuart and only he knows the driver manufacturer), speaker cabinets need to be fitted with the optimised internal damping materials (that would be Harry, Ann and Stuart), someone needs to measure all of the raw drivers to ensure consistency (that would be Stuart), someone needs to populate the speaker cabinets with drivers and do all of the internal wiring (that would be Stuart), someone needs to measure the finished loudspeaker and then listen to every single pair (that would be Stuart and Harry), someone needs to design and build, from scratch, a three or four way active line level crossover and three or four channels of amplification containing hundreds of individual components on 6 layer PCBs (that would be Stuart right here in Australia), someone needs to pay for the electronic components to be tested and certified for safety in this country (that would be Stuart and Harry at great expense), someone needs to refine the design to ensure that some idiot doesn't blow the thing up at some point down the line (again this takes up Stuart's valuable time), someone needs to maintain the website to tell people about the product (that would be Stuart and his partner)..... it is all starting to sound like an Australian made product to me and incredible value at that so that mere mortals like you and I can actually afford something that looks and sounds fantastic.

YS

Edited January 3, 2010 by Young Skywalker

[Telecine]

YS,

You make some good points.

That last comment is beneath you though.

[joz]

What??

Why didn't someone tell me that the ScanSpeak Illuminator drivers were not Aussie but Scandinavian??

What an injustice!!

Now will some one fill my boxes with only Aussie drivers!

Good Grief Charlie Brown!!

Errr get over it!

[Guest]

Country of Origin Claims

Representing that a product is "Australian Made" or a "Product of Australia" can appeal to consumers wishing to support the local economy. Businesses must ensure the appropriateness of any labelling, packaging, logo or advertising that makes a statement about the country goods originate from to ensure such labelling does not contravene s 52 [4] , s 53(a) or (eb) [5] ,or s 75AZC(1)(a) or (i) [6] of the Trade Practices Act. [7] Division 1AA of Part V of the Trade Practices Act ('Country of Origin Representations') outlines the criteria to be satisfied to avoid a contravention of these sections:

1. A business may make a general claim as to the country of origin such as "Made in Australia" or "Australian Made" where: [8]
   1. 
      
   2. the goods have been substantially transformed in the country of origin; and
      
   3. 50% or more of the production or manufacture costs are attributable to production or manufacture in the country of origin.
      

Goods have been substantially transformed where there has been "A fundamental change… in form, appearance or nature such that the goods existing after the change are new and different goods from those existing before the change." [9] To be substantial, the transformation must be more than reconstitution or assembly and includes processing of ingredients and production of an entirely different product. Costs of production or manufacturing costs include expenditure on materials, labour and overheads.

1. Businesses may also choose to make a premium claim regarding a good's origin such as that the good is a "Product of Australia" or "Produce of Australia". A business can only make such claims where: [10]

   [*]A business may also represent the country of origin of goods by affixing a prescribed logo, such as the green "Australian Made" triangle, where goods have been substantially transformed in the country of origin and 50% or more of the production or manufacture costs are attributable to production or manufacture in the country of origin. [11]

   [*]Where goods do not meet the above requirements it is possible to make a qualified statement about the origin of the goods. It is becoming increasingly common for goods to consist of raw materials from one country and for the manufacturing process to be carried out across several other countries, for example in clothing or food production. It may be impossible to make a claim as to the country of origin of the goods. In such cases a qualified statement may be made which is not misleading or deceptive. [12] For example, where a product is manufactured in Australia from parts or ingredients from multiple other countries it may be appropriate to make the qualified statement "Made in Australian from Australian and imported components".

Each significant component/ingredient originates from the country of origin; and
All, or virtually all of the production processes have taken place in the country of origin.

[Young Skywalker]

YS,

You make some good points.

That last comment is beneath you though.

Thanks Telecine, you are right. The emotion of the moment got the better of me and I have now amended the last section of that particular post in accordance with your suggestion.

YS

[Telecine]

Thanks Telecine, you are right. The emotion of the moment got the better of me and I have now amended the last section of that particular post in accordance with your suggestion.

YS

Good man!

[Young Skywalker]

For goodness sake Andy, please show me a single loudspeaker on this earth where every single piece of it was manufactured from materials and/or components sourced from a single country. It is not like SGR were displaying the official Made in Australia logo on the loudspeaker with the intent to deceive or anything sinister like that. A serious buyer of this product would visit the showroom and ask the appropriate questions if the country of origin of the cabinets was a factor in the purchase decision. Do you not think that they would receive a straight answer?

For the record, according to the legalise you quoted in your last post, it appears to this layman that SGR are quite within the law to make the claims that got your knickers twisted.

YS

Edited January 3, 2010 by Young Skywalker

[Nolz]

Too much drama....

More audio pr0n and group hugs please.

[Marc]

YSW - perhaps leading off topic again (not that it seems to have been a concern in this thread), but I happen to notice in my travels reading through a lot of the discussions on here that you are constantly recommending / discussing and often defending SGR.

For the sake of my own curiosity when reading your opinions (and probably for others) as per our request that all commercial interests be declared by all SNA members, can you please clarify if you do have / intend to have any commercial interest in SGR? It's just coming across that way to me and I feel the question should be asked (or the interest declared via your signature).

[Waylander]

As a suggestion, PM's help to clear up these queries which readers may find to be a little OT

[Zammo]

Country of Origin Claims

1. A business may make a general claim as to the country of origin such as "Made in Australia" or "Australian Made" where: [8]
   1. 
      
   2. the goods have been substantially transformed in the country of origin; and
      
   3. 50% or more of the production or manufacture costs are attributable to production or manufacture in the country of origin.
      

Goods have been substantially transformed where there has been "A fundamental change… in form, appearance or nature such that the goods existing after the change are new and different goods from those existing before the change."

By these legal definitions, and as a consumer with no financial interest and having purchased no items from SGR, I am more than satisfied with the designation "Designed and Manufactured in Australia", taking into consideration the fundamental "transformation" the cabinets (even if built in Asia) have made to become a product capable of amplifying and transducing sound.

Considering Andythiing's repeated baiting regards SGR's products, perhaps, Marc, you should also request whether he should declare any financial interests with companies not associated with SGR. Raising issues on a public forum regards the legalities of advertising of an Australian companies products is treading very thin ice, and I'm surprised you've singled out YSW first.

[Marc]

As a suggestion, PM's help to clear up these queries which readers may find to be a little OT

Actually, it was asked publicly with the readers best interests in mind, but thanks for your suggestion.

[Guest]

I have absolutely no commercial interest in any audio company whatsoever and I do not consieder i have baited in anyway shape or form - I asked genuine questions about a topic I have some personal interest in - ie where components are made - I have asked the question directly of many companies - Ive asked it in public when we had a GTG at VAF - ier where are your drivers mader, where are your cabinets made, I have asked the same queries of krix here locally, I have raised queries over adelaide speakers.

Honesty, integrity and openess in a manufacturers business is something i expect to see as a basis of a good business and yopud expect a business to be consistent in when it deals with its client and the gerenal public.

I am quite shocked at the level of angst a simple query like this generated - all the well know maufactures Ive so far met such as Krix and Vaf have been very upfront and consistent in their direct and honest answers as far as i am aware.

A standard i would hope we all exppect of a quality producer.

If merely asking such questions gets people so upset what does that say. Is there something to hide or are people just overly sensitve about these issues.

YS Im not worried about your comment about me getting stuff from the dump - thats my thiing - i like doing it - i can laugh at myself.

I also want to learn about good speker manufacturers and one day I may aspire to owning a better and possibly "new" or quality second hand system - but its vintage and cheap for me currently.

That does not mean I dont and cant have an interest in systems that might suit me in the future.

SGR gets so much attention and support from many whom have some standing in our little community - not just fly by night posters - so i really did have an interest in learning more about them, particularly thiss new floorstander which seemed a more "realistic" goal.

I had no expecetation that yu lot would start acting like the posters on the Adelaide Speaker thread - what the hell do you want to bring yourselves down to their level - I thought this was high end quality gear - why be so defensive - sure;y the product should speak for itself - if its good its good?

[THOMO]

Getting dome midranges to reproduce a really tight image.

That is a major achievement in itself.

[Zammo]

Considering you got yourself in a little trouble over on the Adelaide Speaker thread, Andy, maybe you should start asking yourself why you rub people up the wrong way?

It wasn't the repeated question that had already been answered and acknowledged by yourself that bothered me, but your need to start quoting Trades Practices Acts on a public forum. Such inferences can harm a business immeasurably, and don't present an air of genuine interest.

Harry and Stuart of SGR are very approachable, knowledgeable and generous with their time. I'm sure if you have a true interest in purchasing one of their products, they would be more than happy to reply to your queries.

[hired goon]

G'day,

You know I feel for YS sometimes ... last night he posts a civil question on the poll thread and gets a cavalcade of character assassination in response, with nary a rebuke from the mods or support from anyone other posters; and tonight YS is enthusiastic about the gear he chooses and defends the manufacturer's reputation from ham-fisted sh*t-stirring and gets a humiliating virtual j'accuse from the mods for his troubles.

FFS.

--Geoff

[Keith_W]

This thread was reported by Audiomarketplace at the request of SGR.

I think it is perfectly fair to ask where the parts have come from and whether it fits with the "Manufactured in Australia" marketing. However in passing I should note, that nearly every Australian speaker company's website I have visited does not disclose where the parts are sourced from. This includes a few where I know for a fact that the cabinets have been sourced from China with European drivers. Similar to SGR.

Therefore: I do not think that their practice, or their marketing, is out of the ordinary to any of the other speaker companies in Australia.

However, whilst I think it is fair for Andy to ask this question I also think he has done it in a rather inflammatory manner. Whilst I am not myself without sin, I think Andy's question has been answered, and it should be "thank you and good bye" unless he has more questions. Which hopefully will be framed in a less confronting manner.

Re: YSW and SGR dealership. It is a request for clarification, if he has no commercial relationship with them then it's a matter of "no I don't" and that will be that. But, on the other hand, if he is - then we would expect him to conform to the norms of the merchant member policy.

[*Psycho!*]

anywaaayy...would active speakers such as the SGR and the Adam tensors with their room adjustment abilities (i have no experience with such types of speakers) obviate any need to also have say some DEQX or Lyngdorf RP1 processing in the chain OR can you have both?. I assume you would just leave the knobs on the back of the speakers set to zero in such a case.

I love my current rig (Marantz SA-11s1 SACD, Elac FS249 speakers, Primare I30 amp, KRK ergo room correction.) However 'Active' is certainly a direction i want to head towards in the next year or two.

[brumby]

anywaaayy...would active speakers such as the SGR and the Adam tensors with their room adjustment abilities (i have no experience with such types of speakers) obviate any need to also have say some DEQX or Lyngdorf RP1 processing in the chain OR can you have both?. I assume you would just leave the knobs on the back of the speakers set to zero in such a case.

I love my current rig (Marantz SA-11s1 SACD, Elac FS249 speakers, Primare I30 amp, KRK ergo room correction.) However 'Active' is certainly a direction i want to head towards in the next year or two.

I'm in exactly the same boat as you, Psycho. I'm more than happy with my current setup and am actually waiting patiently for a Primare I30 - somewhere in the bowels of the Post Office - to see if it can simplify/improve things.

That said, going "active" is certainly on my radar too and I'm looking forward to the opportunity to check out the SGR Convex line when both standmount and floorstander are available in Brisbane. I am aware that the standmounts are already in Brisbane.

As for "Aussie made", I frankly couldn't care less whether EVERY component of the speaker, including the cabinet, is actually fabricated from scratch here. The fact is that the speakers ARE put together here from components designed by SGR, sound brilliant from all accounts, and are VERY keenly priced considering what you get for your money.

And I for one have enjoyed reading YSW's posts. Again, I don't care whether he has a "financial interest" in SGR or not. He is clearly enamoured with the product as he has every right to be and posts accordingly - and quite eloquently on most occasions. Maybe he could grow a slightly thicker skin, but that's neither here nor there.

[Young Skywalker]

YSW - perhaps leading off topic again (not that it seems to have been a concern in this thread), but I happen to notice in my travels reading through a lot of the discussions on here that you are constantly recommending / discussing and often defending SGR.

For the sake of my own curiosity when reading your opinions (and probably for others) as per our request that all commercial interests be declared by all SNA members, can you please clarify if you do have / intend to have any commercial interest in SGR? It's just coming across that way to me and I feel the question should be asked (or the interest declared via your signature).

Marc,

We have been over this ground in the past.

When I owned a system comprised primarily of products sourced from Pure Music Group I regularly posted favourable comments and recommendations for Zu loudspeakers, Yamamoto Sound Craft valve electronics, Acoustic Signature turntables, and ZYX phono cartridges. That system was even featured in an Australian Hi-Fi feature article. I did this because I liked the products, felt they represented genuine value for money and I had a friendship with Warwick. I never made any money from this and never asked for a single dollar.

During my friendship with Warwick I did become the go to man for Acoustic System resonators and I did make a small commission on the few sales but hardly enough to offset the grief that was associated with promoting something with questionable scientific principles. At the time I declared these interests on the forum and in my signature.

I met the crew from SGR when Warwick collaborated with them on the non-commercially viable RS-5a loudspeaker built around the Feastrex wide band driver.

To cut a long story short I ultimately decided to sell the Zu Definitions and valve gear and go in a different direction with SGR. As one would expect when working closely with the manufacturer of one's expensive new hi-fi toys a friendship develops and one gains an insight into the integrity and passion of the people involved. Thus, it is difficult to not be enthusiastic about these people and their products which really do perform at a very high level compared to much of what I have heard in this industry, often at considerably higher prices.

Have I ever been paid any money by SGR? No.

Do I have any plans to give up my time intensive career in medicinal chemistry research to sell hi-fi, specifically as part of the SGR or Audiomarketplace teams? Sounds like a romantic notion but not very practical for someone trying to buy their first home on a single income. I can't imagine my parents being too happy about strangers wondering into their home on a regular basis to audition hi-fi gear. I never hold GTGs and I rarely invite SNA members over for a listen.

Re: YSW and SGR dealership. It is a request for clarification, if he has no commercial relationship with them then it's a matter of "no I don't" and that will be that. But, on the other hand, if he is - then we would expect him to conform to the norms of the merchant member policy.

Keith,

No I don't.

YS

[brumby]

To quote myself

And I for one have enjoyed reading YSW's posts. Again, I don't care whether he has a "financial interest" in SGR or not. He is clearly enamoured with the product as he has every right to be and posts accordingly - and quite eloquently on most occasions.

See what I mean?

[Young Skywalker]

You know I feel for YS sometimes ... last night he posts a civil question on the poll thread and gets a cavalcade of character assassination in response, with nary a rebuke from the mods or support from anyone other posters; and tonight YS is enthusiastic about the gear he chooses and defends the manufacturer's reputation from ham-fisted sh*t-stirring and gets a humiliating virtual j'accuse from the mods for his troubles.

And I for one have enjoyed reading YSW's posts. Again, I don't care whether he has a "financial interest" in SGR or not. He is clearly enamoured with the product as he has every right to be and posts accordingly - and quite eloquently on most occasions. Maybe he could grow a slightly thicker skin, but that's neither here nor there.

Thanks for your words of support/defence guys.

YS

[hired goon]

G'day,

anywaaayy...would active speakers such as the SGR and the Adam tensors with their room adjustment abilities (i have no experience with such types of speakers) obviate any need to also have say some DEQX or Lyngdorf RP1 processing in the chain OR can you have both?. I assume you would just leave the knobs on the back of the speakers set to zero in such a case.

There's limited EQ available on the back of an SGR active speaker: adjust the output of the tweeter/mid/bass driver +/- 3dB for example, or send output below a certain frequency to the sub (see the "Adjustability" section here for details of CX4F, for example).

A gizmo such as DEQX would have the above plus multiband parametric EQ (for adjusting output at certain frequencies or frequency bands) plus (I assume) some other goodies and frequency analysis tools.

It would be nice (but quite unrealistic) to have a multiband parametric EQ on the back of an active speaker, though.

--Geoff

[Guest]

YS and other SGR owners - I will listen and offer a scincere apology if you feel my questions where "loaded" andpresent in an inflamatory way.

I think my posts became infalmatory only after YS having a dig at "someone who collects gear from a dump" daring to ask a query. I note YS has not made a public apologyu to me on this as yet. Yes perhaps I am guilty orf responding emotionally to a delibreate dig by YS - with what to that point had been what I consider quite reasonale queries and I think asked in a reasonable manner.

I agree my subsequent posts did not meet this standard - but I think I was provoked by YS.

I did ask if SGR might be likely to be willing to bring some product to SA - thats a genuine query - yes I could ring them but I thought YS and others on this thread might be able to give some advice and perjaps even help see that occur in some way by suggesting it to SGR or soemone being willing to facilitate it happening.

I have learned my lesson for the AS thread - have any of you? It takes two to tango and if you guys believe you are 100% in the right and Im 100% in th rong then that speaks volumes.

I am was wrong - I am sorry - I will not post in this thread again - thats a 100% promise - you will see Im a man of my word.

I hoep one day to hear the SGR product for myself. Best of luck to you all with your systems.

[hired goon]

G'day,

I think my posts became infalmatory only after YS having a dig at "someone who collects gear from a dump" daring to ask a query.

What happened to that not-at-all-in-any-way-inflammatory "Integrity" image that was posted yesterday amongst all yer other not-at-all-in-any-way-inflammatory quotes from Oz advertising law? It's disappeared.

I'm pretty sure these posts appeared before YS made the "dump" comment (which he acknowledged was wrong and removed immediately). So I don't think you were provoked at all.

Anyway this is getting way off topic and if the mods can split the thread into "Review of CX4F" and "Are SGR speakers really Aussie made? It would be irresponsible not to speculate" and "Are you now or have you even been a paid shill of SGR" threads that would be beaut.

--Geoff

Edited January 4, 2010 by hired goon