Biwiring advantage?

[crisis]

2 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

It's complicated, somewhat controversial and it depends on a wide range of factors. 

 

Here's a few points:

 

* In the majority of speakers, bi-wire connections are added purely for sales reasons. Kinda like a rear spoiler on a Hyundai Excel. There are some relatively rare instances where bi-wiring a speaker may be helpful.

* The influence exerted by ANY speaker cable (bi-wired or not) is inversely proportional to the length of the cable. IOW: Shorter cables are good and you don't need to spend as much on fancy cables, if the runs are short.

* In a bi-wired system, the HF terminals are connected to the HF driver/s, through the high pass filter and the LF terminals are connected to the LF driver/s through the low pass filter.

* An argument can be credibly mounted to suggest that, if bi-wiring makes a difference, then the speaker wires are sub-standard. IOW: Better quality speaker wires may obviate the need for bi-wiring.

* If you do bi-wire, then consider using low inductance wire for the HF and low resistance (need not be low inductance) wire for the bass. 

* IME, the effects of bi-wiring are quite small. But I almost always specify VERY low inductance, VERY low resistance speaker cable. 

So RG213/U for HF and what would you recommend for LF?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, crisis said:

So RG213/U for HF and what would you recommend for LF?

 

RG213/U is just fine, as it is also low resistance. Even better, it uses PE insulation and is very stiff, thus conductor movement is reduced (compared to PVC)

[jeromelang]

Biwiring my speakers makes very audible improvements, but unfortunately, it introduces other unexpected problems - trying to fit 2 pairs of spade connectors into a congested area subjects the cables to unnecessary tension, causing timbral changes and non-musical sonic artifacts.

[jeromelang]

Some amps offer 2 pairs of speaker output terminals for biwiring, in case users intend to run 2 separate pairs of cables to their speakers.

 

Don't use them all.

 

Stick to a single pair of speaker output terminals at the amp. Most of the time it sounds better that way. But of course this means you may run into that space congestion problem at the back of your amplifier. So choosing the appropriate type of connectors to be used is quite important. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by jeromelang

[jeromelang]

Trying to fit cables into congested spaces often cause the cables to be bent, twisted, or pulled taut, all of which can introduce tension/stress to the cables. Tension/stress imposed anywhere along speaker cables can result in constricted frequency extension, soundstaging, and introduces "hardness" into sound timbre. After they are connected and allowed to settle, it is good to disconnect the speaker cables again, letting them drop to the floor. Then pick them up gently to plug them into the speakers again. Doing this will help alleviate any tension imposed inadvertently onto the speaker cables during the connection process, or during speaker shifting(s). 

Edited August 3, 2017 by jeromelang

[rantan]

9 minutes ago, jeromelang said:

Trying to fit cables into congested spaces often cause the cables to be bent, twisted, or pulled taut, all of which can introduce tension/stress to the cables. Tension/stress imposed anywhere along speaker cables can result in constricted frequency extension, soundstaging, and introduces "hardness" into sound timbre. After they are connected and allowed to settle, it is good to disconnect the speaker cables again, letting them drop to the floor. Then pick them up gently to plug them into the speakers again. Doing this will help alleviate any tension imposed inadvertently onto the speaker cables during the connection process, or during speaker shifting(s). 

 

I'm not sure if you are serious

 

It almost reads like the cables are a person, but I will assume that you are  in jest. So long as there is no actual damage or kink in the cables there won't be a problem

[sir sanders zingmore]

29 minutes ago, jeromelang said:

Trying to fit cables into congested spaces often cause the cables to be bent, twisted, or pulled taut, all of which can introduce tension/stress to the cables. Tension/stress imposed anywhere along speaker cables can result in constricted frequency extension, soundstaging, and introduces "hardness" into sound timbre. After they are connected and allowed to settle, it is good to disconnect the speaker cables again, letting them drop to the floor. Then pick them up gently to plug them into the speakers again. Doing this will help alleviate any tension imposed inadvertently onto the speaker cables during the connection process, or during speaker shifting(s). 

 

You are describing issues with the top end whereas I find the opposite. 

Because higher frequencies are smaller wavelengths they have no issues getting through bent or twisted cables. 

 

The low low end on the other hand will suffer (longer wavelengths need more length of "straight" cable )

[jeromelang]

Indeed, cables are almost "alive".

 

Treat them well and be rewarded with optimum sound in return. 

[jeromelang]

27 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

You are describing issues with the top end whereas I find the opposite. 

Because higher frequencies are smaller wavelengths they have no issues getting through bent or twisted cables. 

 

The low low end on the other hand will suffer (longer wavelengths need more length of "straight" cable )

 

Wavelength related issues belong in the acoustic domain. 

[WhakPak]

Kinking, stressing or bending my cables doesn't change the sound at all....I must be doing something wrong.

[rantan]

I never ceases to amaze me what you can read on a forum. Living cables FFS

[jeromelang]

Dan Agnanos first highlighted this issue about tension having an effect on cables' sound many years ago, and, just like everybody else, i was incredulous upon hearing him talk about it. But careful observations over the years proved that he was correct. 

 

And while the subject of our discussion was based on straightwire cables (which he used as reference at that time), over the years, i have witnessed similar issues with many other brands of cables (both esoteric labels and cheap unknowns).

Edited August 3, 2017 by jeromelang

[jeromelang]

Over the years, people have read about reports from audiophiles, on how, when cables were shifted, even for just a couple of centimetres, the results were very drastic changes in sound. As the mechanics behind this issue are not so well understood, it is therefore easy to laugh off such reports and the people making such reports as delusional and misguided.

Edited August 3, 2017 by jeromelang

[Lance B]

No advantage in biwiring. However, what I did was to remove the crossover from the speakers and mount it outside the speaker cabinet in it's own small wooden box and then run separate lines to each individual driver in the speaker itself from each section of the crossover. I have a set of Orpheus Aurora 3.3 speakers and now have 6 terminals on the rear of the speakers, one set for the tweeter, one set for the midrange and one for the woofer.  The crossover box sits next to the speaker and has 6 short cables running to the 6 terminals on the rear of the speaker. It made quite a difference and the dynamics are amazing. The bass is incredible, well extended tight as anything and very dynamic with real punch. Midrange and high frequencies are clean, clear and well defined. Stereo imaging spot on and able to place everything with a huge sound stage. They are powwered by my Plinius 9200 integrated amp. The Auroras are 4 ohm and the Plinius has been measured to be able to deliver 340w rms into 4 ohms so there is plenty of grunt. When the amp says play this not it does! I can highly recommend external crossovers and separate leads to each speaker.  

[jeromelang]

Another issue with cables: static.

 

While an audio system is powered up and playing, use a finger to lightly brush, once, against the speaker cable's jacket on one of the channels. 

 

Immediately, soundstaging on that side where the speaker cable's jacket had been touched by the finger could be perceived to have collasped or shelved down. 

 

Obviously this is gonna have to create a weird listening experience where soundstaging is opened and spacious on one channel but closed-in and shelved down on the other channel. 

 

So 2 things can be done:

 

Touch the speaker cable of the other channel. Brush your finger lightly against the speaker cable jacket the same way you had touched the other channel previously. This restored balance and parity to both channels. But sound is not the same as before any of the channels came to be touched by human hands. 

 

You're gonna have to do something else to restore both channels back to their original sound....

 

My phone battery is running flat.

 

I'll have to recharge my battery before i can continue....  

 

:-)

 

[rantan]

 

This is like a recurring weird dream.

 

Hopefully I will wake up tomorrow and things here will make some sense. I haven't even touched , although perhaps I should

 

 

[jeromelang]

28 minutes ago, Lance B said:

No advantage in biwiring. However, what I did was to remove the crossover from the speakers and mount it outside the speaker cabinet in it's own small wooden box and then run separate lines to each individual driver in the speaker itself from each section of the crossover. I have a set of Orpheus Aurora 3.3 speakers and now have 6 terminals on the rear of the speakers, one set for the tweeter, one set for the midrange and one for the woofer.  The crossover box sits next to the speaker and has 6 short cables running to the 6 terminals on the rear of the speaker. It made quite a difference and the dynamics are amazing. The bass is incredible, well extended tight as anything and very dynamic with real punch. Midrange and high frequencies are clean, clear and well defined. Stereo imaging spot on and able to place everything with a huge sound stage. They are powwered by my Plinius 9200 integrated amp. The Auroras are 4 ohm and the Plinius has been measured to be able to deliver 340w rms into 4 ohms so there is plenty of grunt. When the amp says play this not it does! I can highly recommend external crossovers and separate leads to each speaker.  

 

Only 1 crossover? 

 

Not separate crossover (on separate pcb) for each divided frequency spectrum?

 

It is quite possible that you didn't find any sonic benefits biwiring your speakers. 

 

You will always going to hear differences when you remove the crossover from within the speaker cabinets and putting them into another container. Then count in the fact that you are running a longer, and different make of cables to the various speaker drivers, and possibly some portion of those longer speaker cables coming into contact with the floor.

 

Yes, i believe you when you said you heard very drastic difference. You are going to always get a difference when you do what you did.

 

Its a good thing to place crossover outside speaker cabinets. Just don't use metallic materials to make the cobtainer holding the crossover!

 

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by jeromelang

[Bunno77]

Externally mounting the xo is something I will try when I start playing with my Aaron's. Thank you

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[wolster]

Moderator post:

 

Could members please respect our guidelines and other members by not ridiculing the actions or views of other members. It may be tolerated in other forums but not here on SNA.

[Lance B]

4 minutes ago, jeromelang said:

 

Only 1 crossover? 

 

Not separate crossover (on separate pcb) for each divided frequency spectrum?

 

Its no wonder you didn't find any sonic benefits biwiring your speakers. 

 

You will always going to hear differences when you remove the crossover from within the speaker cabinets and putting them into another container and especially if that container is made of metal. Then count in the fact that you are running a longer, and different make of cables to the various speaker drivers, and possibly some portion of those longer speaker cables coming into contact with the floor.

 

Yes, i believe you when you said you heard very drastic difference. You are going to always get a difference when you do what you did.

The original crossover board was a single board inside the speaker. However, it can be cut into 3 separate pieces so that you can have 3 individual boards, which is what I did. I mounted the whole shebang into a box made out of 18mm MDF. There are 3 separate crossover boards in the crossover box. The whole set up is still biwired to the crossover box from the amp, but to be quite honest, there is no reason why that would work other than there is more cross sectional area being used from the amp. The cables from the crossover are very short, maybe 400mm at most and they are of equal length and all of the same sort of cable for each driver. They do not touch the floor once they leave the crossover box.

[betty boop]

it very much depends on the cross over id suggest. e.g. i owned some mission cyrus speakers and could clearly see it actually had a split cross over and it did indeed benefit bi wiring these, same with bi-amping ....but with little high quality amps e.g. cyrus at the time mission/cyrus were one and quite possible they were designed to run this way and certainly the benefit was there. the same with bi-amping. however when tried with a larger high quality amp bi-amping didnt bring any benefit a such.

 

there are a few brands that suggest e.g. b&W, others like focal dont design their speakers with bi-wiring in mind. 

 

there are makers e.g. dr rod from legend and colin what mough on the benefits of biwiring and bi-amping. 

 

can you try it ? best  suggest for you to decide for yourself ...anyone else is just chucking pebbles in the pond id suggest

[soundreference]

OH my High Fidelity Gods people I am surprised some of you have failed to notice but this is a "do cables make an audible difference to sound quality" thread in disguise! Dun dun dun!!!

 

In short: Speaker manufacturers can use very expensive internal wiring thus increasing the overall cost of the speaker (ie. non bi-wired) OR they can let you use your own cable (hopefully high quality) and thus we have Bi-Wiring. Or i guess a 3rd option is to not allow bi-wiring and just use poor / average internal wiring but who would do that (sadly many speaker manufactures).

 

With a Bi-wired speaker, If you use good quality speaker cable, then removing the average links from the external bi-wiring terminals (average links usually come free with bi-wired speakers) should improve sound quality. IF you use poor quality cable then no you wont notice a difference because the links are already not quality.

 

Likewise replacing the average links with far better quality links (rather than full length speaker cables either bi-wired or double single run) should improve sound quality.

 

Ive tested this in store with multiple speaker set ups and cables from those costing 100's to 1000's of dollars. If in doubt the best way forward is to test it yourself or come in and see us and we can do some tests in store.

 

And now we have come full circle to: Do cables make a difference? If you think yes the logic is simple. IF you say nay then obviously you may see no need to bi-wire

[Happy]

That's nice. So the cable yes sayers can't deny the benefits of biwiring eh?


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[crisis]

3 hours ago, Bunno77 said:

Externally mounting the xo is something I will try when I start playing with my Aaron's. Thank you

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FWIW I removed the crossovers form my old KEF C45s and mounted them in a lead lined plastic box, in the day.. I cannot honestly say it made any difference.. It felt high end though.

[crisis]

5 hours ago, jeromelang said:

 

Wavelength related issues belong in the acoustic domain. 

From my limited understanding this is correct. Wavelengths do not travel though speaker cable. Electrical current does. Therefore any talk of bends or kinks affecting any specific frequency must be fallacious.