Resolving power cables do they really make a difference

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

14 hours ago, Assisi said:

Trevor,

That statement is not correct at all.  Where or what is the evidence for a statement like that? 

 

 

 

I've tested several filters and regenerators through different equipment. In every case, poor quality equipment responded to external assistance in a positive fashion. High quality products either responded with no change or a negative change. 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

In fact from my experience the opposite is the case. I consider that all equipment regardless of its relative quality benefits from clean power.

 

 

The better designed the equipment is, the more resistant it is to poor quality mains power. The reality is that most parts of Australia have access to very high quality mains power. This may not be the case in other places. Like the US. I've experienced some very poor quality power in the US and am not surprised that power regenerators are popular in the US. I once measured the 117VAC mains at around 90 Volts! Here in Australia, we rarely have such horrible Voltage swings (unless you're in WA). 

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

  In all systems there are unwanted vibrations, resonance and interference etc.  Strategies to remove these unwanted aspects help to improve the SQ and the listening experience.  This is applies to the critical matter of power.  My understanding is that what we hear is ultimately all about the amplification of power.  Cleaner power results in cleaner sound. 

 

 

The power supply inside all products includes a transformer and AC - DC conversion system. That system can consist of many different variations, but all are designed to ensure clean DC appears at the output of that power supply. After that, amplification systems possess a characteristic called PSRR (Power Supply Rejection Ratio). Here is a primer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_rejection_ratio

 

Even very cheap, humble OP amps possess phenomenal PSRR figures. Single ended and low global NFB devices tend to possess much lower PSRR figures. A GOOD manufacturer will take this shortcoming into account at the design stage. Lazy designers may not. 

 

 

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Power conditioners etc mitigate some of the issues associated with the imperfections of power.  My experience with quality hi end equipment is that they strut their stuff better with power is that is cleaner than what may initially be the  “noisy” power that comes out of the wall.  Besides my experience, it is just pure logic.

 

John

 

No, it is not logical. IME, some power amps require a very low impedance supply. Any filter or regenerator inline can cause a higher impedance source and thus may cause a fall in performance. As I previously stated, when using high quality equipment, the best that can be hoped for is a zero gain in performance.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Assisi]

@Zaphod Beeblebrox

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about relative our experiences .  My limited experience is the exact opposite to yours.  I will just luxuriate with my system that has quality hi end equipment that has benefited from the addition of a power conditioner.  My power VAC fluctuates only 5% compared to your 23% variation experience in the US.  I consider that it is not the variation in VAC that can be the problem.  It is all about the “noise interference” that can be in the power that in turn becomes included in the signal of what we ultimately hear if it is not reduced or removed.

My conditioner does not alter the VAC at all.  What goes in comes out in terms of VAC.  Before I got the conditioner my system always sounded better after 9.30pm at night.  Something happened with the power later at night.  In fact that was the reason as to why I initially tried the conditioner.  The resulting benefit was significant.

 

My knowledge of electronics is very limited.  However I do wonder sometimes whether extensive expert knowledge can obscure and prevent the acknowledgement of things that are not easily explained by or fit with electronics 101.  Are there unknowns that do not fit with electronic theory and practice?  I think so.  Why do Schumann resonators work?  I still remember the response to one of the my first posts I put on SNA.  The supposed expert suggested I was stupid.  Interestingly the response from others was that I was not stupid after all.  We all have different knowledge and experiences.

 

This thread has contained numerous references to AB testing etc.  I don’t think it work can in many instances.  As soon as you turn a system off and then on again it will be different.  In my experience as soon has you turn something off and make a change there will often be short term subtle system changes.  For me it can take 10 mins,  20 mins or 24 hours depending for everything to settle down and become "normal" again. 

 

When I had PS Audio DS DAC if I turned the power it off even for a short time it was always better after 10 mins or more when it was turned back on again.  I was told this was because it took that long for some of the capacitors to reach full capacity again.  If I move the isolation feet under the DAC Amp etc it can take 24 hours or more for them to “settle” again.  How this happens or why I do not know but it does.  I assume that it is about resonance and vibrations

 

John

Edited December 1, 2016 by Assisi

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 minutes ago, Assisi said:

@Zaphod Beeblebrox

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about relative experiences .  My limited experience is the exact opposite to yours.  I will just luxuriate with my system that has quality hi end equipment that has benefited from the addition of a power conditioner.  My power VAC fluctuates only 5% compared to your 23% variation experience in the US.  I consider that it is not the variation in VAC that can be the problem.  It is all about the “noise interference” that can be in the power that in turn becomes included in the signal of what we ultimately hear if it is not reduced or removed.

 

 

 

The internal power supply will remove any vestige of mains interference in a well designed unit. 

 

2 minutes ago, Assisi said:

 

 

 

My conditioner does not alter the VAC at all.  What goes in comes out in terms of VAC.  Before I got the conditioner my system always sounded better after 9.30pm at night.  Something happened with the power later at night.  In fact that was the reason as to why I initially tried the conditioner.  The resulting benefit was significant.

 

My knowledge of electronics is very limited.  However I do wonder sometimes whether extensive expert knowledge can obscure and prevent the acknowledgement of things that are not easily explained by or fit with electronics 101.  Are there unknowns that do not fit with electronic theory and practice?  I think so.  Why do Schumann resonators work?  I still remember the response to one of the my first posts I put on SNA.  The supposed expert suggested I was stupid.  Interestingly the response from others was that I was not stupid after all.  We all have different knowledge and experiences

 

 

 

What is a  Schumann resonator? What does it have to do with audio equipment? 

 

2 minutes ago, Assisi said:

 

 

 

This thread has contained numerous references to AB testing etc.  I don’t think it work can in many instances.  As soon as you turn a system off and then on again it will be different.  In my experience as soon has you turn something off and make a change there will often be short term subtle system changes.  For me it can take 10 mins,  20 mins or 24 hours depending for everything to settle down and become "normal" again. 

 

 

Irrelevant. Double blind testing can be organised, regardless of the time taken to set a system up. I've done so with one of my well-heeled clients, who has a very fine audio system and a very critical ear. I have unrestricted access to his home and I often make alterations to his system, when he is not home. Often he will call me and ask if I have made a change. Usually, he is right. Sometimes I'll make a change (like fitting a fancy power lead to some of his components) and I don't hear from him. 

 

2 minutes ago, Assisi said:

 

 

 

 

Me when I had PS Audio DS DAC if I turned the power it off even for a short time it was always better after 10 mins or more when it was turned back on again.  I was told this was because it took that long for some of the capacitors to reach full capacity again.  If I move the isolation feet under the DAC Amp etc it can take 24 hours or more for them to “settle” again.  How this happens or why I do not know but it does.  I assume that it is about resonance and vibrations

 

John

 

More likely it is due to the fact that the semiconductors needed to warm up and stabilise.

[Tasebass]

14 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Sometimes I'll make a change (like fitting a fancy power lead to some of his components) and I don't hear from him. 

 

 

 

Can you come round to my place and fit some fancy cables too then..............start calling you Santa....

[Guest guru]

What do you call a fancy power cable Trevor ? Does it have a branding or manufacturer? Any clues, I'm sure we would all be interested in trying what you consider fancy. As you suggest it doesn't work in your clients system and you can indeed change power cords, he obviously hasn't taken your advice and hard wire the power leads. Look forward to reading your list.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

5 minutes ago, guru said:

What do you call a fancy power cable Trevor ? Does it have a branding or manufacturer? Any clues, I'm sure we would all be interested in trying what you consider fancy. As you suggest it doesn't work in your clients system and you can indeed change power cords, he obviously hasn't taken your advice and hard wire the power leads. Look forward to reading your list.

 

I borrowed a couple of Cardas power cables to try. I don't recall the model numbers, just that they were quite expensive. Given the fact that I have heard quite a few Cardas interconnect and speaker cables and find them (generally) to be quite good sounding, I figured the mains cables would be worth an audition. As for non-detachable power cables, his power amp uses a non-detachable one, as the power amp is, far and away, the most critical item WRT the poor connection abilities of all IEC connectors. 

 

 

[audio_file]

1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

The internal power supply will remove any vestige of mains interference in a well designed unit. 

I guess my Naim Nait XS2 falls into your 'badly designed' category then.

The problem is I haven't found another amplifier that does the same in both mid range and bass than this one. Under $5k at least.

So for me a power conditioner makes a difference then.

My plug outlet measures 243V, but I think there's more noise on it. I say this because the power conditioner makes an audible difference, yet the same power conditioner didn't make any difference in the shop.

 

Funny thing is many people praise Naim on their power supply designs.

Edited December 1, 2016 by audio_file

[ehtcom]

19 hours ago, guru said:

And so the night watchman is at the crease......

 

i give up, I can't debate someone who reminds me of a Francis Bacon painting every time he posts and you, his ermine trimmed capped crusader. My fun is at an end. Carry on among yourselves good gentle men.

I only liked your post because it had Bacon in it.

Edited December 1, 2016 by ehtcom
not telling

[andyr]

2 hours ago, ehtcom said:

I only liked your post because it had Bacon in it.

 

I thought you loved Selma Heyek ... not bacon??? 

 

Andy

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

4 hours ago, audio_file said:

 

 

Funny thing is many people praise Naim on their power supply designs.

 

I'm not one of those people. Capacitor upgrades elicits HUGE improvements on most Naim products. 

[andyr]

5 hours ago, audio_file said:

 

Funny thing is many people praise Naim on their power supply designs.

 

 

I think the Naim power supplies that people praise are their HiCap / SuperCap supplies (for source components) ... not the PSes in their poweramps.

 

Andy

 

[audio_file]

23 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

I think the Naim power supplies that people praise are their HiCap / SuperCap supplies (for source components) ... not the PSes in their poweramps.

 

Andy

 

Those you mentioned are pre amp power supplies, which I can use to power the pre amp section in my integrated as well.

[PKay]

Rather than a double blind test (which is a pain) another option could involve removing the expensive cables for a week and running with generic cables to see how much the hi-end cables are missed. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, Nap250 said:

Rather than a double blind test (which is a pain) another option could involve removing the expensive cables for a week and running with generic cables to see how much the hi-end cables are missed. 

 

Bad idea. It removes the blind aspect of the test. A far better idea is to engage a friend or relative to make changes (or not), randomly over a period of weeks. If the owner cannot pick the change, then the result is known. Whilst not double blind, it a single blind test. Trouble is this: No fancy cable owner or promoter is likely submit themselves to such a potentially embarrassing test. 

[audio_file]

I have multiple amplifiers, cables, and speakers set up on the same CD player, and all of them use the same remote codes, so the different amplifiers will adjust volume at the same time if I change the volume on my remote control. The switch is done on the CD player, which has multiple outputs, switchable via its remote control. Sometimes different speakers are connected to different amplifiers.

Most of the time it's one of four combinations from my Naim CD5 XS:

Cyrus Pre2 DAC + Cyrus Stereo 200 + ATC SCM 19

Cyrus Pre2 DAC + Cyrus Stereo 200 + PMC Twenty.23

Naim Nait XS2 + ATC SCM 19

Naim Nait XS2 + PMC Twenty.23

The speakers are right next to each other and because of the spread of sound, it's not possible to tell which speaker is playing by listening for the position where the sound is coming from.

 

Often my wife would have played something, or I don't remember which is active at the time, yet I can tell which ones are playing just by the obvious difference in tonal balance.

My one power conditioner changes the tonal balance slightly, which I don't like, but the other one doesn't change it at all, so it's harder to tell the difference. This second one I'm using for all the components above.

 

With power cables and conditioners the main difference I hear is less noise, which is harder to tell what's connected, as it's not as obvious as tonal balance. It is a lot more obvious though if someone changes something and then I listen again. To my ears this difference in noise is similar to the blacker blacks in some televisions, I also hear the same kind of difference when playing 24 bit files rather than 16 bit files, even 20 bit HDCD discs have a similar difference over CDs.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

14 hours ago, andyr said:

 

I think the Naim power supplies that people praise are their HiCap / SuperCap supplies (for source components) ... not the PSes in their poweramps.

 

Andy

 

 

Of course. The topology used by Naim had a rather poor PSRR. As such, power supply enhancements elicited big sonic improvements. One could ask why Naim did not build decent power supplies in the first place, but that is a whole different question. Now, I'm not suggesting that a topology that exhibits poor PSRR figures is necessarily bad, since such topology may exhibit superior sonic abilities in other areas. It is beholden on the manufacturer of such items to recognise the limitations and deal with them at the time of manufacture, rather than providing a 'crutch' which is to be purchased separately. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[~Spyne~]

On 30/11/2016 at 9:56 PM, Assisi said:

Trevor,

That statement is not correct at all.  Where or what is the evidence for a statement like that? 

 

On 01/12/2016 at 8:14 AM, Trickster said:

 

Just wondering if you have the research to back up your views? Any links to academic journals perhaps?

 

23 hours ago, Assisi said:

@Trickster

I cannot provide any specific references.  I do read a lot.  What I do have though is from my own experiences.  Conclusive empirical evidence shows that strategies that are deployed to reduce noise in the power improves the SQ .

 

Come on John, Trevor has mentioned several times throughout this thread that he has experienced power cables and power conditioners/regenerators having no positive effect when using decently designed equipment and you don't accept it, asking for evidence.

You then have no evidence to back up your counterclaim, only personal experience.

Pot, kettle...?

 

To add my 2c, I use an Isotek Polaris board and an Audio Principe Signature power cable. Have I experienced an improvement in sound quality? Can't say that I have, but it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to know they're there.

Also, just to add something that many may not have considered. All those videos from manufacturers of power conditioning products, where they connect a signal noise meter to the power before and after their product showing dramatic decreases in noise after their products....relating to Trevor's comments, has anyone thought these demonstrations are utterly useless? I mean, what they should really be showing us is the above BUT THEN COMPARING THAT to the same setup without their product in the chain - noise in the power signal before the amp/source/etc and then noise in the signal after the power supply of the amp/source/etc.

This would show whether their product actually does anything extra/different to the power supply already in your audio gear.

 

22 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

The power supply inside all products includes a transformer and AC - DC conversion system. That system can consist of many different variations, but all are designed to ensure clean DC appears at the output of that power supply. After that, amplification systems possess a characteristic called PSRR (Power Supply Rejection Ratio).

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by ~Spyne~

[Assisi]

@~Spyne~

Hi Adam,

I said it in a previous post about just having to “agree to disagree”.  My experience and the empirical evidence is for me just as valid as Trevor’s.  If I responded to all the matters raised in this thread that I have a different perspective on or experience with  I would end up writing a book and I do not have time.   With Hi Fi I continually aspire to improve my system and to learn more.  For me it is not about being told that something is is a waste of money or it doesn’t work etc.  It is all about, exploring the possible and is there a benefit? 

I have a Quantum QB8 power board that was relatively expensive.  I no longer use it.  I was never sure whether it made much of a difference, but like you it gave “   me a warm fuzzy feeling to know that it was there.”  I have heard the higher level power Isotek products and they do make a difference.  My Conditioner does make a difference!

You live close to me and you are more than welcome to visit and hear my system for yourself.  PM.  If you can’t visit maybe I can come to you and bring the conditioner.  Look forward to hearing from you 

John

[davewantsmoore]

3 hours ago, audio_file said:

Most of the time it's one of four combinations from my Naim CD5 XS:

Cyrus Pre2 DAC + Cyrus Stereo 200 + ATC SCM 19

Cyrus Pre2 DAC + Cyrus Stereo 200 + PMC Twenty.23

Naim Nait XS2 + ATC SCM 19

Naim Nait XS2 + PMC Twenty.23

 

 

How do you manage that each path does not have the same gain?    Unless something is done they'll all have different volume levels, and small changes in volume level change the "quality" of the sound.

 

 

This comes back to the often forgotten point IMO.    People say "I definitely hear something" .... Other people say  "that isn't how it works".

 

This doesn't necessarily mean the "I hear something" people are imagining things .....   It may just mean that there is another explanation for what they are hearing.   The above quote is a good example.

[audio_file]

49 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

 

How do you manage that each path does not have the same gain?    Unless something is done they'll all have different volume levels, and small changes in volume level change the "quality" of the sound.

 

 

This comes back to the often forgotten point IMO.    People say "I definitely hear something" .... Other people say  "that isn't how it works".

 

This doesn't necessarily mean the "I hear something" people are imagining things .....   It may just mean that there is another explanation for what they are hearing.   The above quote is a good example.

The gain doesn't matter.

The same remote control controls both amplifiers, so if I manually change the one volume to balance it out according to my ears, both move together from that point.

Unless I'm doing a direct comparison of the two, the volume wouldn't matter anyway, as my example was referring to sitting down to listen and guessing which system is playing.

When I do a direct comparison I normally set the volume to a set value that I measure using my SPL meter.

 

Small differences in volume don't change my perception of the sound, so I don't see the issue. The changes from one system to the next is great, much more than what a system sounds like at low volume compared to a high volume.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by audio_file

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Just now, audio_file said:

The gain doesn't matter.

 

Yes, it does. It is utterly crucial.

 

Just now, audio_file said:

The same remote control controls both amplifiers, so if I manually change the one volume to balance it out according to my ears, both move together from that point.

Unless I'm doing a direct comparison of the two, the volume wouldn't matter anyway, as my example was referring to sitting down to listen and guessing which system is playing.

When I do a direct comparison I normally set the volume to a set value that I measure using my SPL meter.

 

Small differences in volume don't change my perception of the sound, so I don't see the issue. The changes from one system to the next is great, much more than what a system sounds like at low volume compared to a high volume.

 

 

Small differences in volume WILL change your perception of the sound. Even as little as 1dB, which your SPL meter will not resolve. You need to measure the Voltage at the speaker terminals, using a sine wave and millivoltmeter. And you need to match very accurately. You also need to ensure there are no frequency response anomalies, when the amplifier under test is connected to the speaker. Any differences will invalidate the data. 

[audio_file]

3 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Yes, it does. It is utterly crucial.

 

 

Small differences in volume WILL change your perception of the sound. Even as little as 1dB, which your SPL meter will not resolve. You need to measure the Voltage at the speaker terminals, using a sine wave and millivoltmeter. And you need to match very accurately. You also need to ensure there are no frequency response anomalies, when the amplifier under test is connected to the speaker. Any differences will invalidate the data. 

It only sounds louder or softer to me, it doesn't sound different.

The different components or speakers change the sound, it's like listening to a song sung by someone and then listening to someone doing a cover on it.

Furthermore, every time I listen to the same system, I note the same things I like and dislike, regardless of volume.

Edited December 2, 2016 by audio_file

[audio_file]

24 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Small differences in volume WILL change your perception of the sound. Even as little as 1dB, which your SPL meter will not resolve. You need to measure the Voltage at the speaker terminals, using a sine wave and millivoltmeter. And you need to match very accurately. You also need to ensure there are no frequency response anomalies, when the amplifier under test is connected to the speaker. Any differences will invalidate the data. 

What is your reason for this? Is it purely for measurements? I'm only interested in a better sounding system, don't really care whether it's good on paper.

 

If I prefer system A over system B, I prefer it both when A is louder than B, and when B is louder than A. So I don't see the point.

[Guest BobbyD]

1 hour ago, audio_file said:

What is your reason for this? Is it purely for measurements? I'm only interested in a better sounding system, don't really care whether it's good on paper.

 

If I prefer system A over system B, I prefer it both when A is louder than B, and when B is louder than A. So I don't see the point.

I have never seen a measurement put a smile on my face, give me Goosebumps or make me tap my feet.

My ears on the other hand................

[acg]

1 hour ago, audio_file said:

What is your reason for this? Is it purely for measurements? I'm only interested in a better sounding system, don't really care whether it's good on paper.

 

If I prefer system A over system B, I prefer it both when A is louder than B, and when B is louder than A. So I don't see the point.

Are you familiar with the Fletcher-Munson curves?  You hear different frequencies at different volumes.  For a start the more volume you have the more bass you can hear, and vice versa.