After a recent system upgrade I have been giving alot of thought to what the definition of an end game system is? Although I have seen the phrase tossed around in the hobby particularly when discussing particular speakers or components, this definition has so many variables that it is almost as personal as our own tastes in music/sound. 

 

Keep in mind I am talking about the point in your own audio journey where you look at your system and simply say to yourself "I am completely satisfied" rather than a dream setup in a magazine or heard at an audio show if money was no object. 

 

I contend that unless you are fortunate enough to have a truly unlimited budget that cost will always have to inform, to some degree, your definition of what YOUR end game system is. Especially in a hobby tied to disposable income and as such is skewed towards a more and more esoteric high end market. 

 

Perhaps rather than budget, is perceived value for money or a personal point of diminishing returns a better yardstick? 

 

Is budget the only mitigating factor standing between us and our End Game? I think its fair to say that in hifi that the most expensive doesnt always mean the best but we can generally agree that in hifi, like most things in life, you tend to get what you pay for(calm down chi-fi bros)

 

In a hobby of ever evolving technologies and improving manufacturing techniques is end game even a thing? 

 

And finally how different does end game look to a new audiophile assembling his first system off Marketplace or Craigslist(I truly hope there are still young people doing this) to my 48 year old self? Will it always be a moving target depending on what stage of life you are at? 

 

As a final caveat, I realise there are the searchers out there who will never ever be truly satisfied and will forever be tinkering or swapping out components until they run out of time or money. Lets exclude these poor souls for the purpose of this discussion! 😉

 

 

Basically changed with and after each upgrade. When I bought my last full system after years of other commitments it was my end game. The sound I had been searching for. Over the last 9 or so years it has all been replaced except the turntable, After each upgrade I thought my system sounded better and as good as I needed it to, And each time a deal I couldn't refuse caused me to make another purchase I thought the same thing. Sitting here with a red listening it has never sounded better and probably better than I ever thought Id achieve. And I'm already thinking of what I would do next. As long as funds and hearing will accommodate I expect there will be no end.

Edited July 5, 2025Jul 5 by crisis

5 minutes ago, crisis said:

Basically changed with and after each upgrade. When I bought my last full system after years of other commitments it was my end game. The sound I had been searching for. Over the last 9 or so years it has all been replaced except the turntable, After each upgrade I thought my system sounded better and as good as I needed it to, And each time a deal I couldn't refuse caused me to make another purchase I thought the same thing. Sitting here with a red lisiteing it has never sounded better and probably better than I ever thought Id achieve. And I'm already thinking of what I would do next. As long as funds and hearing will accommodate I expect there will be no end.

 

Thanks for your input. So is it just wanting improvement that triggers that next step or is it just wanting to stay involved in the hobby? Or is the hifi bargain the high? 

 

It is all about the music and the enjoyment it delivers!

I’ve been interested in listening to music and improving the sound quality since I was about 13 years old, just from a listening and buying equipment perspective as I have no technical skills, probably adding marbles under my speakers which where on carpet was my the first enhancement that sent me on this journey.

Doing it all basically all on my own it has taken many years to incrementally improve the sound quality, slowing learning how all the pieces fix together in this hobby and how to get the sound I preferred, I’d like a dollar for the amount of times I’ve said to myself this is as good as it gets.

I could easily live with my current system for the rest of my days, but I know while I can I will continue to improve my system and the amazing music that can be enjoyed, and I’m sure my next purchase won’t be my last, all part of my enjoyment of this hobby and everyone’s journey is different. 😃

 

I appreciate your input.
 

So is everyone on the constant upgrade treadmill?
 

Is anyone out there that feels like they are in their happy place? 

end-game.  When it ceases to be a game it’s the end 🙃.  The point of the diminishing returns analysis where the investment required to notice an improvement is beyond one’s means or simply irrelevant, illogical or just sheer madness.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Lil Caesar said:

end-game.  When it ceases to be a game it’s the end 🙃.  The point of the diminishing returns analysis where the investment required to notice an improvement is beyond one’s means or simply irrelevant, illogical or just sheer madness.

 

Haha. Not a bad definition of end game Caesar! 
 

No criticism of anyone’s hifi upgrade journey, thats what makes the hobby interesting, if we all liked the same thing life would be bloody boring. 

Is that a set of speakers on your subs  Caesar?

 

and Burson amps. Interesting. 

Yepski.  Avantgarde Colibri C2s on rubber bullets cross to the REL 15” Predators @75Hz.  Burson voyagers are class a/b but operate in class a to 30 watts.  Since the Colibri are 98dB efficient, the amps never leave class a in this scenario.

Edited June 26, 2025Jun 26 by Lil Caesar

Lovely. They certainly are an interesting design. 
 

The reason i have been contemplating end game is I recently made a couple of purchases myself and its the first time i have genuinely had the thought “i dont need anything else, I am 100% happy” 

 

I am hoping it lasts but maybe it’s just wishful thinking! 🤣
 

Certainly not as impressive as your setup but we both have gone for a combined surround and 2 channel solution in the same listening space. Just slightly different ways of going about it.

Noice.  Clean and elegant to boot.   Mine now looks somewhat hairy by comparison.  One piece of advice I can offer is to take a significant amount of time to consume all the content that pleases you, through your current system.  
 

If nothing feels lacking, then just enjoy.  Treat yourself to the possibility of an upgrade in a few years.  The treadmill is exhausting and I’m glad to finally be getting down from the pad myself having learnt the hard way.

I appreciate the advice. 
 

thats certainly the plan.

i originally went through an AVR upgrade process that eventually led me to the Cinema 30 trying to find a one box solution for both surround and 2 channel listening and even with dedicated external amplification I just couldn’t get the 2 channel performance i was looking for.
 

I recently bit the bullet and added a Model 30 via HT Bypass for my mains and an SACD 30N and TT15S1 as my dedicated 2 channel sources and everything just fell into place. 
 

It covers all the bases for me now. I realise there is always something up the food chain to buy but for the first time ever i  dont have a shred of FOMO.
 

The key will be to remember this feeling in a couple of years time and the upgrade itch comes back!
 

Will this truly end up being my end game setup? It’s impossible to say for sure especially on the AVR side of the equation and changing HDMI standards etc. but its the most satisfied I have ever felt with my rig.

 

I am calling it the Dirty 30 😉

 

Great to hear you have arrived in the same place for now. Nothing hairy looking about that system, just hard earned knowledge and dedication. Congratulations. 

Edited June 26, 2025Jun 26 by S1000XR

I've been an audiophile for 35+ years, so you learn what kind of gear you like on that long and winding road, incl: the type of speakers which will make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck. So it's about distilling all those years of knowledge into what you really want to live with for the long haul that fits your room and budget.

 

I've reached a point in my life where the next system I plan to build I want to last me until I retire; at which point I may upgrade my sacd player, and potentially down-size my speakers. But that's about it. I'm settled on solid state separates which will give me many years of trouble-free enjoyment and be maintenance-free. Though i'm choosing warm, tube-like gear so I likely wont miss valves. 

Hi David,

 

Thanks for weighing in.
 

I agree it does take time to actually discover what your own ears respond to and how to manifest that sound in a  number of components and speakers all whilst taking into account your listening space and budget. 
 

it can feel daunting, especially when it’s impossible to get access to and audition all the possibilities available and even more disheartening when you make a purchase and find its less optimal than you expected or worse still, its actually a step backwards. 
 

The good news is that whilst the ultra high end of hifi now commands eye watering level of investment, the upshot of this is the entry level and mid tier gear has become so damn impressive. 
 

its just a matter of finding your own version of High Fidelity and appreciating it once you finally find it. 

@S1000XR I think one of the challenges is knowing where to 'spend the farm' on gear that's worth the money, and where to look for the best 'bang for buck' to get you in the sweet spot and over the line with your budget. The biggest lessons i've learnt on my audio journey are firstly to read, read, read. And secondly there is no substitute for ear time. That latter lesson can be challenging as you elluded to. But audio shows like the upcoming Stereonet show are a good opportunity to hear a wide range of gear....ok not always in optimal conditions. But it's still a great way to experience a wide range of gear you may otherwise not get the chance to see and hear.

I have hit what I think will be end game in my current house. I have tinkered with everything from speakers to all electronics and even acoustic room treatments and DSP and right now, I need a bigger house to go to a new level. I chiseled away at every angle I could optimise and improve, upgrading everything since COVID hit.

 

I'd love to go some larger main speakers (like Marc's JBL Everests) and larger subwoofers (looking at a pair of Ascendo 18" actives) but I don't have the physical space for them in my current room and buying a new house is probably a year or so off given a VCAT argument I'm having with a builder that will take time to resolve.

The best recommendation I could offer anyone looking to make further system upgrades is to start with your room and fixing or trying to fix the acoustics of it before spending coin on anything else. It will make a huge positive difference, far more than anything else you would spend money on afterwards (including speakers and electronics). But don't do it blind. Engage a professional like @CORSINI Acoustic Solutions to design a solution that meets your budget and know that the approach is scientifically based and not guess work.

@David A agreed that research and industry events are valuable especially as brick and mortar hifi stores are sadly becoming less viable in this online world. 
 

i think ultimately it’s important to accept there will always be something new to buy or options to upgrade existing equipment but each of us needs to determine where the lines of diminishing returns kicks in relation to our own circumstances and level of enjoyment. 
 

The beauty of this hobby is that it caters to both the pragmatists and the dreamers and constantly gives us something to aspire to. 
 

The key is always remembering it’s about the music at the end of the day. 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by S1000XR

16 hours ago, awayward said:

It is all about the music and the enjoyment it delivers!

I’ve been interested in listening to music and improving the sound quality since I was about 13 years old, just from a listening and buying equipment perspective as I have no technical skills, probably adding marbles under my speakers which where on carpet was my the first enhancement that sent me on this journey.

Doing it all basically all on my own it has taken many years to incrementally improve the sound quality, slowing learning how all the pieces fix together in this hobby and how to get the sound I preferred, I’d like a dollar for the amount of times I’ve said to myself this is as good as it gets.

I could easily live with my current system for the rest of my days, but I know while I can I will continue to improve my system and the amazing music that can be enjoyed, and I’m sure my next purchase won’t be my last, all part of my enjoyment of this hobby and everyone’s journey is different. 😃

 

I completely understand why for many people the gradual improvement is one of the more enjoyable aspects of being an audiophile.
 

I think i have discovered that my personality type needs an end point to things where i can call something finished and enjoy the end result. 
 

Based on much of the hard earned experience and feedback here I might be kidding myself ! Time will tell I guess. 

22 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

I have hit what I think will be end game in my current house. I have tinkered with everything from speakers to all electronics and even acoustic room treatments and DSP and right now, I need a bigger house to go to a new level. I chiseled away at every angle I could optimise and improve, upgrading everything since COVID hit.

 

I'd love to go some larger main speakers (like Marc's JBL Everests) and larger subwoofers (looking at a pair of Ascendo 18" actives) but I don't have the physical space for them in my current room and buying a new house is probably a year or so off given a VCAT argument I'm having with a builder that will take time to resolve.

The best recommendation I could offer anyone looking to make further system upgrades is to start with your room and fixing or trying to fix the acoustics of it before spending coin on anything else. It will make a huge positive difference, far more than anything else you would spend money on afterwards (including speakers and electronics). But don't do it blind. Engage a professional like @CORSINI Acoustic Solutions to design a solution that meets your budget and know that the approach is scientifically based and not guess work.

I mostly agree, but my understanding is that different speakers with different radiation patterns will have an effect on optimal acoustic treatment.
So, my current view, if one is going to optimally treat a room (end game) then the speaker and its radiation pattern should be known.

And then perhaps some level of subjectivity come into it; perhaps you are a listener you likes side wall reflections widening the sound stage at the expense of a bit of accurate imaging, and perhaps I'm not. And I also think perhaps musical genre preferences may have some influence on this as well.

20 minutes ago, S1000XR said:

I completely understand why for many people the gradual improvement is one of the more enjoyable aspects of being an audiophile.
 

I think i have discovered that my personality type needs an end point to things where i can call something finished and enjoy the end result. 
 

Based on much of the hard earned experience and feedback here I might be kidding myself ! Time will tell I guess. 

Sage advice there 🙂 Wished that i'd learnt to recognize the above 15 years ago!

38 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

The best recommendation I could offer anyone looking to make further system upgrades is to start with your room and fixing or trying to fix the acoustics of it before spending coin on anything else. It will make a huge positive difference, far more than anything else you would spend money on afterwards (including speakers and electronics). But don't do it blind. Engage a professional like @CORSINI Acoustic Solutions to design a solution that meets your budget and know that the approach is scientifically based and not guess work.

Yeah spot on.  Understanding room acoustics and treatment take time and lets face it, we're time poor these days, at least i am with a young family, work etc.. best to outsource it to the people that know their stuff!

2 minutes ago, MrBurns84 said:

Sage advice there 🙂 Wished that i'd learnt to recognize the above 15 years ago!

That you need an endpoint or that the upgrade cycle is inevitable? 

1 hour ago, S1000XR said:

That you need an endpoint or that the upgrade cycle is inevitable? 

Both. The endpoint is only intermediary as you've said, upgrade something and enjoy it as its usually delimited by the amount of funds you're prepared to invest into it.   And for some, that may be the end game, unfortunately, due to my inquisitive nature, the latter also applies to me, but i have found some DIY ways to do small upgrades that ends up with changes to my system as a whole, and sometimes its not for the better. I do enjoy the educational aspect of it though and the experience it brings.

The satisfaction in finding those gains is certainly satisfying and in some ways the addictive part of the hobby..

 

Maybe my current end game thinking is because my latest upgrade is one of those few times in the hifi journey where you experience a true step change in performance as opposed to incremental improvements that are found when you have the foundations of your system in place and you are trying to maximise what you have.

 

The Model 30 was such an improvement when paired with my Kanta 2 mains that it highlights exactly what you didn’t even realise you were missing. 

 

I didn’t get to audition before buying so it was really blind luck but it does highlight that synergy is a thing. Perhaps any number of higher end 2 channel integrated amps may have provided that level of improvement. All i know is from the first listen it was just ‘now this is hifi’ . 
 

The bass was the biggest shock. It just became so much more fast, tight and nuanced without a sub or any form of room correction. 

 

I am sure the glow will fade with familiarity as it always does but for now I am completely content. 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by S1000XR

Is there anyone else who is at or close to their end game system? Its OK to reserve the right to make improvements in the future. 😉

 

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