almikel Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 hi all, Why is it that vinyl is perceived as the "ultimate" in analog reproduction, when tape (I'm not talking casettes, but reel to reel), from an engineering perspective is vastly superior to vinyl (better signal to noise/dynamic range, better stereo separation, no tracking alignment issues, no clicks/pops, as good or better wow/flutter performance) ? Is it that tape is too costly/diificult to distribute/package/market, and only a niche of end users have the equipment. or has "audiofoolishness" taken over (ie vinyl is the ultimate in analog reproduction - forget everything else)? It seems to me that the ultimate analog experience would be reel to reel tape re-mastered off the original analog tapes rather than vinyl. Most modern recordings will go through a bunch of digital stages before final mastering, so in those cases the "perceived" benefit of analog delivery is compromised anyway, but for "analog Hi Fi" surely tape beats vinyl by a country mile? Vinyl has reached mythical status, where SACD and DSD strive to get "close" to what vinyl can deliver, when in reality, analog tape could deliver way beyond what vinyl can. Would there be a market for audiophile analog tape recordings as the ultimate analog experience? cheers mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analog brother Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 it's hard enough co-ercing the average person to acknowledge/love/acquire records and their associated playing apparatus, as it is. imagine trying to get them to buy reel to reel tapes! at what cost? who will make them? who will sell them? who will buy them? what will they play them on? if you fancy it, you can buy a rebuilt machine from somebody like this guy.. http://unitedhomeaudio.com/ and you could luxuriate at home, smoking a pipe wearing cashmere slippers, whilst scouring the net searching the world for barnyard finds of obscure tape recordings.........but doesn't mean there would be a market for this type of indulgent behaviour. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) There already is a very small audiophile market for reel to reel tape with the Tape Project. http://www.tapeproject.com I live in the real world. Who cares? The availability of music to buy, old and new, not the hardware drives demand. How many titles are available on tape and how many new releases are on tape? It will never be anything but a peripheral activity of a peripheral set of audiophiles. Cheers Edited March 2, 2014 by turntable 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted March 2, 2014 Volunteer Share Posted March 2, 2014 I think purist analog audiophiles would disagree with the statement that vinyl is the ultimate. I think in those circles, tape is king and is undergoing a resurgence. As TT points out though, how much is out there to actually listen to ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) hi all, Why is it that vinyl is perceived as the "ultimate" in analog reproduction, when tape (I'm not talking casettes, but reel to reel), from an engineering perspective is vastly superior to vinyl (better signal to noise/dynamic range, better stereo separation, no tracking alignment issues, no clicks/pops, as good or better wow/flutter performance) ? The specs of domestic tape decks, even high end ones aren't that good. Here's the current Otari MX5050BIII... http://www.otari.com/product/recorder/mx5050/spec.html The Technics RS1500, apart from Wow & Flutter is about the same and these are the two machines that The Tape Project suggests. I think you'll find that it's the "sound" of tape that people like, not it's technical superiority. And then, as already mentioned there's the problem of source material if you like real music as there is very little of it about. Edited March 2, 2014 by KenTripp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aechmea Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I threw out my 1972 Revox A77 MKIII (bought new at the time) and all its paraphernalia in a council cleanup a few years ago. I had one multigenerational hissy copy of a studio tape performed by a bunch of my university colleagues. All the rest of the tapes were poor copies (by today's standard) of my early vinyl records. A R2R was a good idea at the time as it didn't suffer from feedback, wear and tear and accidental damage like vinyl. So it was about functionality rather than some sort of stepup in quality. There was no source material available to normal consumers then either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted March 3, 2014 Volunteer Share Posted March 3, 2014 Another case of the gear being more important than the music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The ultimate analog experience comes out the back of a DAC. The ultimate all-analog experience would be the same analog tape deck model as the studio utilised to make the master -- and hence the same tape format, too. Of course that's completely impractical. The best domestic analog tape decks just aren't good enough. Still better than vinyl, yes, but just as fussy to set up and even fussier to play. The killer, as pointed out above, is the terrible paucity of music to buy in this format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Many years ago, I was involved in a comparison between vinyl, CD and 2nd generation master tape of Neil Diamond's Hot August Night, using an Otari and a ReVox A700. The tape was clearly superior to the CD and somewhat superior to vinyl. The vinyl was clearly superior to the CD. HOWEVER, unless the tapes are stored in PERFECT conditions, they deteriorate rapidly. Even when tapes are stored under perfect conditions, they lose quality. Vinyl and CD last pretty much forever. Tapes are enormously appealing for their visual impact, but, unless using master tapes, they are losing their appeal very rapidly. Don't get me wrong: If I had the space and lots of cash, I'd buy a Technics RS1500/1800. Reel to reels look very cool. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 For a sonic appreciation forum, we do seem to rely a lot on look and feel as part of our appreciation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthlaker Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The ultimate analog experience comes out the back of a DAC. At what resolution(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) The ultimate analog experience comes out the back of a DAC. very funny Edited March 3, 2014 by turntable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The truth hurts less when wrapped in a smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Anderson Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The truth hurts less when wrapped in a smile. No really, wrapping your opinion however you like still does't make it right. but really does it matter how anyone listens to their music, whether tape, vinyl or inferior sound sources like CD and Dacs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamve Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Just out of interest. How many of the guys that have posted in this thread have actually heard a good quality 1/4" 1/2 track tape machine at 15ips playing a decent tape? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted March 3, 2014 Volunteer Share Posted March 3, 2014 Yep, sounded very nice, but didn't have the vinyl or digital version to compare it to so no way to tell if it was better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 No really, wrapping your opinion however you like still does't make it right. but really does it matter how anyone listens to their music, whether tape, vinyl or CD and Dacs. There ya go. Fixed it for ya. If music really is the thing, then nobody should care how someone else listens to it. Otherwise, one would have to assume it was the gear that was important and few will admit to that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Ah, you spotted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Give me a first generation reel tape copy from the original master tape and it will be better then everything other then the MASTER TAPE!! Stump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwheel Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 From my limited experience. The tape has always won. I have 4 tapes and the same material on CD and the tape. To me the tape is richer and punchier than the CDs. Still enjoy digital and records, but having fun with tape too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David.M Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Give me a first generation reel tape copy from the original master tape and it will be better then everything other then the MASTER TAPE!! Stump Though if it hasn't been properly stored in a moisture free, temperature controlled environment it won't play, & if it has it still might need an oven before hitting the tape machine unlike my LPs that had sat unplayed for 25+yrs & sound wonderful (well most of them) I will say last year I heard some tape and even though I wasn't familiar with the music the sonics were clearly sublime. No point though it you can't acquire the music you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 No point at all and even if properly stored there's still the problem of print-through. Tape has a limited lifespan. Isn't that the reason Sony invented DSD/SACD? And yes to the irrelevant question asked a half dozen or so posts back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Many years ago, I was involved in a comparison between vinyl, CD and 2nd generation master tape of Neil Diamond's Hot August Night, using an Otari and a ReVox A700. The tape was clearly superior to the CD and somewhat superior to vinyl. The vinyl was clearly superior to the CD. HOWEVER, unless the tapes are stored in PERFECT conditions, they deteriorate rapidly. Even when tapes are stored under perfect conditions, they lose quality. Vinyl and CD last pretty much forever. Tapes are enormously appealing for their visual impact, but, unless using master tapes, they are losing their appeal very rapidly. Don't get me wrong: If I had the space and lots of cash, I'd buy a Technics RS1500/1800. Reel to reels look very cool. agree with this, however gave up on tape from practicality point of view and lack of longevity long time back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamve Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) No point at all and even if properly stored there's still the problem of print-through. Tape has a limited lifespan. Isn't that the reason Sony invented DSD/SACD? And yes to the irrelevant question asked a half dozen or so posts back. Edited March 6, 2014 by gamve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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