Power Conditioner Shootout - PSAudio vs AG1500 Vs Airlink Balanced Power Supply

[Stereophilus]

Stereophilus, I don't really see anything in ZB's comment that disagrees with what you wrote.

No, I didn't so much disagree, just found found some of the statements too absolute, and needing further clarification. I only quoted the one statement, but may response was also in reply to his previous comment as well:

I am speaking from experience, based on fact. One of my clients owns a PS Audio regenerator. He demonstrated the device to me (on what I would term a relatively clean power line) with one of his amplifiers. There was an improvement when using the PS Audio device. We then substituted an amplifier (also owned by him) which exhibited high levels of mains noise rejection. I then performed some blind tests on him, which proved to him that there was no perceptible difference between straight mains and the PS Audio.

 

Like I said: Power regenerators may have some use when using extremely noisy mains and/or when using poorly designed equipment.

Blind tests on one individual, in one setup, changing a power amp... Unfortunately this is not something to base a strong argument on.

[Stereophilus]

I really like your response Stereophilus.   It makes sense to me.

 

Is it written somewhere that the P10 is not good at filtering hf mains noise?       Could be good chance why I found using the Airlink made the sound more fluid/relaxed.   Though I am not sure if a balanced isolation transformer does filter hf mains noise?

I follow the PS Audio forum quite closely. I post regularly there, although I have no affiliation with them other than owning some of their equipment. I found I had to follow the forum because the PWD was so damn finicky with firmware.

Anyway, Paul McGowan did a series of posts on how the P10 works. It was a great read. I'll see if I can find it...

[Once was an audiophile]

Points:

 

* I was quite specific in saying that extremely poor power systems (such as what exists in much of WA) may make using a power regenerator beneficial. Even for products that do not generally require such things.

* Most high quality SS power amps do not require a power regenerator. The amplifier I tested was an ME850.

I hope one day we get our hands on a ME850 and do our own tests........

[TP1]

We tried a PS P10 with a member from here's Gryphon Antileon Signature and it lost all it's rhythm, still remained smooth though. And I doubt very much that the ME's are flawed in any way as they behaved the same as the Gryphon with any conditioning.

 

Cheers George

 

 The Gryphon Antileon Signature  power consumption is 2500W which is close to double the rated capacity of the P10!  Of course timing and dynamics will suffer, sheesh!  The ME has no such excuse and the fact that it sounds crappy with a power conditioner does not make it a great power amp.

[TP1]

I hope one day we get our hands on a ME850 and do our own tests........

 

Already organised for next week - come along if you can make it.

[Peter_F]

Already organised for next week - come along if you can make it.

I'm in if there's any room?

[Once was an audiophile]

Already organised for next week - come along if you can make it.

I will bring a camcorder and post it on youtube   

[Once was an audiophile]

I'm in if there's any room?

Tickets selling fast due to a ME amplifier being switched on to make noise  

[TP1]

And I'll repeat my answer, for you to try it, as you will be very surprised to hear that with a good amp any series resistance between the amp and the mains socket or even the the power board and beyond is detrimental to the sound of a good amp. 

A classic was my water cooled 100w pure class A I built in the 80's it drew so much from the mains even at idle it was carbonizing the mains socket conections, still passing 240v but now because of the carbonization there was series resistances building, and the sound started to suffer in the dynamics because of it.

 

Cheers George    

 

  Balanced power transformers, according to Tortech, show a very low impedance to the equipment connected to it. Who knows, maybe even ME might be able to work with one. Watch this space!

[TP1]

Tickets selling fast due to a ME amplifier being switched on to make noise

 

will send PM

[Peter_F]

will send PM

standing by! 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

 The Gryphon Antileon Signature  power consumption is 2500W which is close to double the rated capacity of the P10!  Of course timing and dynamics will suffer, sheesh!  The ME has no such excuse and the fact that it sounds crappy with a power conditioner does not make it a great power amp.

 

Huh? When did you test an ME850 with a power conditioner? What was the associated equipment?

[agisthos]

The ME850 has a 50 gazillion uF capacitor bank, so no power conditioner is going to feed it. Common sense says it will be flat, slow and restricted dynamics through any standard type of power conditioner. But perhaps if one was big enough, such as the Equitech models which are 20kva, it could work.

 

btw I had got a quote last year from Tortech for a 5kva balanced power transformer, (torroid only, no case). High grade Japanese steel not the cheap stuff in their standard products, mu metal torroidal shield, highest grade electrostatic shielding between windings e.t.c

Cost $1550. I'm guessing a few hundred more for one in the case.

[agisthos]

Another company that does audiophile power conditioners is Purepower 2000/3000.

 

They have interesting sinewave regeneration technology and their 230v model can output 220/230/240 selectable.

 

http://www.purepoweraps.com/

[WhakPak]

Please name  the amplifiers that will not benefit from these devices. I would like to test your theory.

The Halcro dm-series amps have power supplies which measure in the order of parts per million distortion on their output power rails. The PS regenerators output distortion is in the order of parts per thousand. So putting the parts per thousand device in front of the parts per million device makes very little difference to the equation of the output. Which probably has something to do in explaining why my dm38 and dm78 amps sound no different at all when plugged into the wall socket, compared with plugged into a P10. Some might hear a difference, but I do not.

[georgehifi]

 The Gryphon Antileon Signature  power consumption is 2500W which is close to double the rated capacity of the P10!  Of course timing and dynamics will suffer, sheesh!  The ME has no such excuse and the fact that it sounds crappy with a power conditioner does not make it a great power amp.

Sheesh!!!! do your homework first Tasso, the Gryphon only consumes 500w at Idle per channel, and if you asked first we were driving a pair of JBL4350's hardly adding to that idle figure. And you are kidding about the ME's aren't you? guess what the owner of the Gryphone now owns instead of it???? 

 

Cheers George

[Nada]

The ME850 has a 50 gazillion uF capacitor bank, so no power conditioner is going to feed it. Common sense says it will be flat, slow and restricted dynamics through any standard type of power conditioner.

 

There is only one way to actually find out.

 

Fourtunately Tasso is immune to knockers and is going to give it a go.

 

Besides surely the capacitor bank if anything is going to lessen the peak draw (apart from start up) so if anything i should just sound no worse on a conditioner?

Of course this is just specualtion and needs teating out.

[Nada]

  guess what the owner of the Gryphone now owns instead of it???? 

 

 

Sorry George. My super  powers of clairvoyance are a bit rusty. Which model ME are you playing guessing games with?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

There is only one way to actually find out.

 

Fourtunately Tasso is immune to knockers and is going to give it a go.

 

Besides surely the capacitor bank if anything is going to lessen the peak draw (apart from start up) so if anything i should just sound no worse on a conditioner?

Of course this is just specualtion and needs teating out.

 

Which is precisely what I found when testing a PS Audio device with the ME850. There was no audible difference between using the regular, Sydney mains supply and the PS Audio device. I will also add that SOME mains supplies in Australia are so bad that a power regenerator MAY be of some assistance. Maybe.

[Nada]

Another company that does audiophile power conditioners is Purepower 2000/3000.

 

 Purepower looks impressive based on their propaganda.

 

How much does the 2000 model go for in Australia?

 

In the US it can be delivered to ones door for $2200.

 

If it sold for that price here Id be very interested...

[Krispy Audio]

$5,500 for the 2000 model! 

[tuyen]

If there is one audiophile I know in the world who is so super anal about every particular aspect of 'sound reproduction' and 'dynamics', it is the infamous Romythecat.  He seems to like the APS PurePower. 

 

Taken from http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Playback/MyPlayback.aspx

 

"Power-wise, I live in downtown Boston and electricity is a huge problem, problem was. For years I did not use any power treatment devises any power devices: filters, conditioners, regenerators, or isolation transformers – none of them worked appropriately (I have had them all). When Power was good then it was good, when it not good then the only solution is to be disconnected from the Grid and to have 10kW diesel-generator up and running, which I unfortunately can’t use in my urban life…. Recently, after 1.5 year of experimenting with APS Pure Power regenerators they come up with a new version of PurePower 2000, the regenerator that in contrary to anything else I tried actually produces a properly sounding sinusoid ruin sound. So, I had 3 dedicated 20A 8ga lines, separate for my amplification, analog and digital chains and they are sitting empty as I drive the whole system (800W basic and 1.1KW Max) from PP200. My entire system has all components in the same electrical-phase and connected to the "correct-sounding" shoulder of the 220V."

 

Further reading about audio electricity:

• • It’s mad, mad, mad... electricity 

Edited October 31, 2013 by tuyen

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

 

If there is one audiophile I know in the world who is so super anal about every particular aspect of 'sound reproduction' and 'dynamics', it is the infamous Romythecat.  He seems to like the APS PurePower. 

 

Taken from http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Playback/MyPlayback.aspx

 

"Power-wise, I live in downtown Boston and electricity is a huge problem, problem was. For years I did not use any power treatment devises any power devices: filters, conditioners, regenerators, or isolation transformers – none of them worked appropriately (I have had them all). When Power was good then it was good, when it not good then the only solution is to be disconnected from the Grid and to have 10kW diesel-generator up and running, which I unfortunately can’t use in my urban life…. Recently, after 1.5 year of experimenting with APS Pure Power regenerators they come up with a new version of PurePower 2000, the regenerator that in contrary to anything else I tried actually produces a properly sounding sinusoid ruin sound. So, I had 3 dedicated 20A 8ga lines, separate for my amplification, analog and digital chains and they are sitting empty as I drive the whole system (800W basic and 1.1KW Max) from PP200. My entire system has all components in the same electrical-phase and connected to the "correct-sounding" shoulder of the 220V."

 

Further reading about audio electricity:

• • It’s mad, mad, mad... electricity 

 

 

Let us be VERY clear here:

 

It could be argued that the US mains power system is the very worst of any developed nation. There are several reasons for this. The big ones are:

 

* Maximum (theoretical) current that can be drawn from a typical US power point is 15 Amps. That means the (theoretical) maximum power draw is 1755 Watts. The reality is that between 750 and 1,000 Watts is about the maximum practical power that can be drawn. This is due to resistivity issues (VERY critical when using a low mains Voltage).

 

* High power devices (Ovens, stoves, air conditioners, etc) in the US are almost always 2 or 3 phase ones. Here in Australia the vast majority of our domestic appliances are single phase. Our mains supply has been designed to deal with that.

 

When in the US, I had the opportunity to demonstrate an adjustable Class A amplifier to clients (LA, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Chicago). With a growing sense of horror, I noted that when set to 100 Watts Class A (~ 1,500 Watts power consumption), the sound quality deteriorated dramatically. In every US location, the result was the same. After measuring the mains Voltage, the answer became clear. When set to 100 Watts Class A, the mains Voltage fell to as low 85 Volts. At no location in Australia have I found the mains Voltage to fall less than 5% under such circumstances. For all practical purposes, Australian power points MUST be able to deliver 2,400 Watts with little Voltage drop.

 

I am not surprised at the popularity of mains reconstructors in the US. Their mains supply is appallingly bad. In Australia, it is not the case. Ours (except WA) is very good indeed. Obviously, there are pockets around the country which are not so good, but, on the whole, it is pretty decent.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[bzr]

romythecat...REALLY! man , this conversation just lost status.

[georgehifi]

Sorry George. My super  powers of clairvoyance are a bit rusty. Which model ME are you playing guessing games with?

At first a 1400, and now upgraded to a 1500 which has yet to come back to him from a service.

PS: And I stand corrected about the Gryphon Antillion, it was the Gryphon DM100.

 

Cheers George

Edited October 31, 2013 by georgehifi