Daikath Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 I'm doing research on my ideal first hifi setup. I do know I wouldn't wanna skimp on the speakers or amp.. But it's going to take a while to save up for my ideal speakers and amp (CSS 1TDX with superior crossover and the Wilsenton R800i). I figured after spending so much on a new amp and speaker.. that my Philips Dual 505, with a new cartridge like the 2m black for about 600 dollars should be good enough... I'll give myself 2 years to save up for a more high end turntable with a better tonearm, a moving coil cartridge and a good pre amp before thinking of upgrading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonicArt Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) You might want to look into the Garrott range of cartridges too, the P77i is an amazingly good cartridge and in the same price range. I have been using the P77i for a year now, I have quite a few different cartridges lying around, MC and MM, most a lot more expensive than the Garrott...there is something about the P77 that just makes you want to listen to it especially with rock, pop, jazz. Edited May 8, 2022 by SonicArt 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 I have always preferred the AT range of cartridges to the Ortofon. Maybe consider something like the AT740ML? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) +1 For the Garrott P-77i, it not only does it sound great, it tracks really well when set up properly, plus it works well in a lot of different Tonearms. The replacement stylus is reasonably priced as well. NAGOAKA cartridges would be another brand of cartridges I'd be looking into, ALL their cartridges are a great bang for buck. If you shop around you should be able to get their top of the line MM, the MP-500, at around the same price as the Ortofon 2M Black . https://www.nagaoka.in/cartridges Boron Cantilever and polished line contact Diamond stylus makes this one special, right up there sound wise with some ridiculously priced MC cartridges, and having a replaceable stylus, without the very pricey re-tipping needed when the stylus wears out with MC's , or the need for MC head amp/Transformers to boost the very low signal levels MC's have. https://www.stereonet.com/uk/reviews/nagaoka-mp500-cartridge-review https://v2.stereotimes.com/post/nagaoka-mp500-phono-cartridge/ This cartridge is so good it can also stay with you with any upgrade to your turntable you eventually have, as its more than good enough to show the improvements. As with any line contact stylus, you need to have your LP's scrupulously clean. Line Contact stylus are well know for easily collecting any dust left on your records that you couldn't see. Edited May 8, 2022 by Tweaky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaramazov Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 47 minutes ago, aussievintage said: I have always preferred the AT range of cartridges to the Ortofon. Maybe consider something like the AT740ML? +1 on this suggestion. In fact on a Dual 505, I would suggest the cheaper options - either a VM540ML or a VM95ML. The 540ML is identical to the VM740ML , but the latter has a metal body and more mass. Whether you need more mass comes down to your tonearm; probably on the Dual 505 the 540ML will work well. But I would also give serious consideration to the even cheaper 95ML, which costs significantly less than the Ortofon 2M Black. Both AT cartridges will give you access to a high end stylus shape - ie the microline / microridge / SAS - at a relatively low price. They will sound stellar. You can then save the change for your next upgrade. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, mkaramazov said: +1 on this suggestion. In fact on a Dual 505, I would suggest the cheaper options - either a VM540ML or a VM95ML. The 540ML is identical to the VM740ML , but the latter has a metal body and more mass. Whether you need more mass comes down to your tonearm; probably on the Dual 505 the 540ML will work well. But I would also give serious consideration to the even cheaper 95ML, which costs significantly less than the Ortofon 2M Black. Both AT cartridges will give you access to a high end stylus shape - ie the microline / microridge / SAS - at a relatively low price. They will sound stellar. You can then save the change for your next upgrade. Yes, you are probably correct. Both the Ortofon 2M Black and the Nagaoka MP-500 would be overkill on the Dual 505 now I give it some more thought. Daikath would be better off getting a cheaper cartridge at first, and saving the money to upgrade his turntable before opting for either of those cartridges. Or at the very least, tweaking the support the Dual 505 is situated on to lessen the decks main achillies heel, as its thin plastic bottom is very light weight and quite susceptible to vibrations, the arm is quite delicate as well. A Vibrapod sandwich setup would be a cheap and effective solution to help deal with that. http://www.vibrapod.com/isolatorinstallation.htm 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaramazov Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 To build on @Tweaky's excellent suggestion, my understanding is that 505 tonearm is not easily adjustable for VTA. Though I have never had one, and thus perhaps others can comment, I believe the Ortofon 2M Black is notoriously susceptible to set up - precise VTA and azimuth. This would again suggest spending less now, and saving for your next upgrade. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, mkaramazov said: To build on @Tweaky's excellent suggestion, my understanding is that 505 tonearm is not easily adjustable for VTA. Though I have never had one, and thus perhaps others can comment, I believe the Ortofon 2M Black is notoriously susceptible to set up - precise VTA and azimuth. This would again suggest spending less now, and saving for your next upgrade. The Dual 505 [doesn't matter which version you have] doesn't have VTA adjustment as such. It has a Arm Height adjustment screw, but that's only to adjust the arms cuing height so it clears the record surface if you fit a different cartridge. I installed a Ortofon 2m Black on a mates TT a few years back [He didn't have the needed tools and wanted to know how to do it], and found adjusting for the VTA does make a bigger difference than a lot of other cartridges I've come across, I mainly put that down to its nude shibata stylus shape, seems for initial first installation its better erred on a VTA that is set a bit too low than high, where it can sound slightly edgy. I found it a bit of a PITA to set up at first TBH, and I found when I returned a few weeks later that I needed to tweak the VTA again, as it didn't sound as good as I expected a cartridge in that price range to sound. It would seem its one of those cartridges that needs to be run in quite a bit first, and so due to that you can't really tell from first listening straight out of the box if you have the VTA correct, and I know you should always do final VTA adjustment by ear, mainly listening for where you get minimum sibilence which will tell you you have it is as good as its ever going to be. Once run in and VTA set properly it started to shine, but its a finicky beast that shows up flaws in setup, a bit too much for my liking, thankfully my mate was the guinea pig that forked out the money that allowed me to find that out before I went and bought one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Kristiansen Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 Another shout out for the Garrott P77-I I originally came to this forum last year seeking advice on a cart upgrade for my Project Carbon with Ortofon Red - - and was thinking Ortofon Bronze or Black... long story short I ended up selling the Project - and got a fully refurbished Thorens TD 150 - I swapped out the generic stylus for a Nagaoka N-91 and it sounded great... then I had an opportunity to buy a P77-I at a great price - and I am so glad I did. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astormsau Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 I had a 2M Black for about 4 years before getting the upgrade bug (actually I had 2x 2M Black's in that time). I auditioned a SoundSmith Carmen and found it more pleasing to my ears than the Black. A few people I have chatted to have said the Otello will provide similar results. I found the Carmen to be much more forgiving of poor pressings and to have slightly less 'clinical' sound for want of a better term. It was also less fussy to setup and I felt like I was getting a more 'analog' sound (for want of a better term). It was more enjoyable on some of my older albums. I ultimately purchased a low output moving coil cart but would recommend the Soundsmith Carmen or Otello to anyone considering the Black. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikath Posted May 9, 2022 Author Share Posted May 9, 2022 Much thanks for all the suggestions everyone!. I was trying to research but all my suggestions came back to the Ortofon 2M Black. Glad to know there are a lot more options, even better for my current turntable. Or that they are excellent upgrades while I save up for a better turntable. The Garrott P-77i cartridge as a top of the line one, or the AT range like the AT VM 540ML until I get a better turntable. Much thanks guys! I genuinely tried to do my own research but none of this came up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikath Posted May 9, 2022 Author Share Posted May 9, 2022 11 hours ago, Tweaky said: A Vibrapod sandwich setup would be a cheap and effective solution to help deal with that. http://www.vibrapod.com/isolatorinstallation.htm That is a cool idea! I'll definitely look into that, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbasement Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 (edited) I guess the basic question…what speaker, amp and cart are you using atm? Edited May 9, 2022 by dwbasement 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemaadAudio Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) Hi, Your Dual / Philips T/T is totally unsuitable for the Black cartridge due to the stylus shape used. To set the Black up correctly you need tonearm height adjustment. A better cartridge for you T/T & better sounding than the Black, would be search out a Denon DL-109 MM cart. Then buy a replacement Elliptical stylus from Jilco, cost about $150 (the Black stylus replacement is about $600) Or stick with the Black & buy a suitable tonearm like the Hadcock 242. Cheers Edited May 10, 2022 by TemaadAudio 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikath Posted May 10, 2022 Author Share Posted May 10, 2022 9 hours ago, TemaadAudio said: Hi, Your Dual / Philips T/T is totally unsuitable for the Black cartridge due to the stylus shape used. To set the Black up correctly you need tonearm height adjustment. A better cartridge for you T/T & better sounding than the Black, would be search out a Denon DL-109 MM cart. Then buy a replacement Elliptical stylus from Jilco, cost about $150 (the Black stylus replacement is about $600) Or stick with the Black & buy a suitable tonearm like the Hadcock 242. Cheers This was a very good suggestion,, but I looked into it,, and sadly this is not a turntable very suited to put another tonearm on. I'm best off to get a 200 dollar range cartridge more suited and then keep saving up for a better turntable. As was previously mentioned here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemaadAudio Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 You can put a Arm on any T/T, this is what I did to my Lenco 75 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 16 minutes ago, TemaadAudio said: You can put a Arm on any T/T, this is what I did to my Lenco 75 You can put a wet elephant on a TT if you really want, doesn't mean it is well suited. LOL 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 1 hour ago, aussievintage said: You can put a wet elephant on a TT if you really want, doesn't mean it is well suited. LOL ... or very easy or affordable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikath Posted May 11, 2022 Author Share Posted May 11, 2022 2 hours ago, TemaadAudio said: You can put a Arm on any T/T, this is what I did to my Lenco 75 Even if it's not easy or cheap,,, man does this look pretty.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemaadAudio Posted May 12, 2022 Share Posted May 12, 2022 (edited) Daikath - glad you like the looks. assievintage - Well I can assure you the arm is very well matched to the T/T. eman - Cost for the T/T & motor conversion was about $75 + several hours work. Cheers Edited May 12, 2022 by TemaadAudio 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted May 12, 2022 Share Posted May 12, 2022 1 hour ago, TemaadAudio said: Well I can assure you the arm is very well matched to the T/T. Missed the point by a mile. Sigh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikath Posted May 12, 2022 Author Share Posted May 12, 2022 I really like the idea of modding my turntable. It still has the vintage look of a Dual 505, but with the fancier tonearm. Plus with a custom plinth or something. I can make it match with a stack of butcher blocks on vibrapod legs, would help isolate the turntable and look pretty at the same time. Alexandre Nunes on youtube has some pretty exampels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
April Snow Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Running an Ortofon LVB Black MM on my Technics G and adore it !! No complaints here. I upgraded from the Bronze. The LVB is the step up model to the standard Black. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 On 09/05/2022 at 9:02 AM, Tweaky said: +1 For the Garrott P-77i, it not only does it sound great, it tracks really well when set up properly, plus it works well in a lot of different Tonearms. The replacement stylus is reasonably priced as well. NAGOAKA cartridges would be another brand of cartridges I'd be looking into, ALL their cartridges are a great bang for buck. If you shop around you should be able to get their top of the line MM, the MP-500, at around the same price as the Ortofon 2M Black . https://www.nagaoka.in/cartridges Boron Cantilever and polished line contact Diamond stylus makes this one special, right up there sound wise with some ridiculously priced MC cartridges, and having a replaceable stylus, without the very pricey re-tipping needed when the stylus wears out with MC's , or the need for MC head amp/Transformers to boost the very low signal levels MC's have. https://www.stereonet.com/uk/reviews/nagaoka-mp500-cartridge-review https://v2.stereotimes.com/post/nagaoka-mp500-phono-cartridge/ This cartridge is so good it can also stay with you with any upgrade to your turntable you eventually have, as its more than good enough to show the improvements. As with any line contact stylus, you need to have your LP's scrupulously clean. Line Contact stylus are well know for easily collecting any dust left on your records that you couldn't see. Re MC retipping, the price of a retip is often cheaper than a decent MM stylus, the 2M black MM stylus for example is 660 Aus dollars, it would be way way cheaper to get that retipped when worn out as the retip would be much cheaper. MC retips are not expensive. It is worth Mentioning the Garrott P77 is basically a Jico, there is one with a boron cantilever but Decibel is sold out https://www.decibelhifi.com.au/he-moving-magnet-cartridge the bodies are identical to the Garrott. The other body that is the Vessel, the vessel is the Quad low inductance Excel body and the Jico and the Garrott also the Peal are the standard body so the Vessel is the best option body wise. All stylus are interchangeable but they may need plastic cutting to fit across models. The cheapest way to get born is probably a stylus for the Jico or a basic 100 dollar Vessel retipped. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 @Daikath Don't over spend on a cartridge for the Dual. Your just throwing money away. Get one of the cheaper Audio Technica's. If the P77i is similar to the original P77, you need to adjust the VTA up a bit which you can't do on the Dual. Same with the Black. The profile on that means a fair amount of adjustment to get it right. Waste of time and money. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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