mattjtaylor2809 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 LOl.... This is the design without the ambiant tweeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 With Silver 10 or Crystal 10, no ambient tweeter required. Using Fast-10S, Fast-10B, F12 or F15 though....Different story. The cost of quality tweeters at the level of the Lii Audio drivers can quickly make up much of the price difference of just going for the Silver 10 drivers in the first place. Especially if using Duelund Cast as I am. I had not originally planned to use tweeters in my speakers, they were added afterwards after finding a deficiency in treble from around 12k. Cheaper to just go the top Lii Audio drivers in the first place. I wish I had done so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 I don't plan to add an ambient speaker. Did you buy most/all of your XO components from Duelund? https://duelundaudio.com/inductors/ I ask as they state the following for their CAST Capacitors & the XO design states 68uF....did you have these specialty designed? "Standard sizes 0.001 uF – 50 uF other values available on request." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: I don't plan to add an ambient speaker. Did you buy most/all of your XO components from Duelund? https://duelundaudio.com/inductors/ I ask as they state the following for their CAST Capacitors & the XO design states 68uF....did you have these specialty designed? "Standard sizes 0.001 uF – 50 uF other values available on request." I'm only limiting my tweeters with a single 2.2uf cap per tweeter. Even so on sale at half price that set me back about 700 clams. I did this after experimenting with many different caps. They really do all sound different. The Duelund allowed the tweeters to blend seamlessly to my ears. My W15 woofers have their own amp and currently run full range though I am considering moving to an amp will allow me to limit what frequencies go through to the woofers. I guess you could say part passive crossover and part active. Edited December 5, 2020 by MattyW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfdoddsy Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 Dipole andOpen baffle are being used interchangeably in this thread, but they are not the same thing. To get dipole radiation from an open baffle you need progressively narrower baffles as the FR rises. This is why the Linkwitz LX521, Kyron speakers and similar designs have the baffle shapes (or lack of baffle) they do. Wider baffle speakers like Spatial are only dipole up to about 1000Hz. Basically, the wider the baffle the lower the dipole effect. You still get the benefits of having no baffle, and of having rear radiation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazz Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 03/12/2020 at 9:04 AM, mattjtaylor2809 said: Anyone had experience with these drivers? http://aespeakers.com/shop/dipole/dipole15/ They seem fit for purpose? Cheers Matt I have 8 of these babies waiting for an ob design. I gotta get the saw dust flying soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 23 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: I think I’ve downloaded this specs for this design. which full range driver did you pick, you happy with the overall sound, bass response? Hi Matt I bought the Fast 8 drivers to go with the W15. Using original the original xover from leon I found it not to be optimal as it was originally designed to use the Crystal 10 widebands. I have been testing different mods to the crossover to get better sound. Using an LCR notch filter in parallel with the W15 helped reduce the excesive energy in the 100 - 300Hz region. That energy is a result or the dipole radiation. As can be seen when measuring and also "The Edge" baffle diffraction software. Doing that produced slightly excessive bass but much better overall sound. So I change the 6.8ohm tweeter resistor to 5.6ohm and that seems perfect for me and these speakers now. I also have some "Noema" Russian wideband drivers coming at some stage for me to try in replacement of the Fast 8's although those may need a helper tweeter as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 23 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: Basics... I'm assuming an Inductor (to reduce HF going to the woofer?) I'm not sure how to read the specs, is x5 6mH....Low RDC?? In short , Yes. But! the crossover is of a series type (tweeter and woofer in series) so the inductor will also affect the tweeter. As the inductor is decreased, more high frequency energy will pass to the woofer and also less low frequencies will pass to the tweeter/ wideband driver. Vice versa if incrasing the inductor value. The designer is asking for a low DC resistance (resistance measured with a multimeter) inductor. 23 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: These are Capacitors? (reducing low freq to tweeters)? In short yes, but again this affects both drivers because of the series crossover. As the capacitor value decrease, the tweeter receives less low frequencies at the same time the woofer receives less high frequencies. 23 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: Are these then depicting resistors? (reducing the amount of power directed to each speaker)? Is this saying x1 1.2Ohm or is it x1 2 Ohm? x6 8 ohm....20 watts? Yes an open rectamgle represent a resistor on a electrical schematic also you may see them as a squiggly line as used in USA. The first is a 1.2ohm resistor. In europe they like to use commas instead of full stops. Yes 6.8 20W recommendation although I use a 10 w easily with no excessive heating of the resistor, and I play music quite loud. I'd hate to be sitting in the room when playing at a volume level to start heating a 10w resistor excessively. 23 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: The schematic also suggest this design has x2 woofers or is this just a dipole design of the W-15 which has x2 different binding posts? It is a dual voice coil woofer (1 woofer 2 coils) wired in parrallel. It has a minimum of 3.4ohm impedance when wired as such. 23 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: Finally, is this suggesting there is a 2nd tweeter....I don't see this in the pictures of the actual speakers? As I said, I'm a newby at this, I enjoy the learning though. Cheers Matt Depending on what wideband driver is used and what your preference is as to whether you add a helper tweeter. Leon's can be seen on this photo Cheers Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 23 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: I don't plan to add an ambient speaker. Did you buy most/all of your XO components from Duelund? https://duelundaudio.com/inductors/ I ask as they state the following for their CAST Capacitors & the XO design states 68uF....did you have these specialty designed? "Standard sizes 0.001 uF – 50 uF other values available on request." I used purely Jantzen components sold by Speakerbug in Brisbane. I can give nothing but high praise when dealing with Nigel from speakerbug over the years. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 12 hours ago, Lazz said: I have 8 of these babies waiting for an ob design. I gotta get the saw dust flying soon. 8... I havent heard the dipole 15's but have heard others AE's in sealed boxes. They are fantastic drivers. The Dipole 15's have great specs for use in dipole config so should go great guns. Your going to geat great efficiency using 8 which is what I guess you are going for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazz Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 Just now, niss_man said: 8... I havent heard the dipole 15's but have heard others AE's in sealed boxes. They are fantastic drivers. The Dipole 15's have great specs for use in dipole config so should go great guns. Your going to geat great efficiency using 8 which is what I guess you are going for. Yes, thats the idea. 2 designs I am tossing around are the Kyron Audio Gaia - with 4x15 per side or the Pure Audio Project Quintet style. Still haven't decided yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian McP Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Troels Gravesen has an interesting OB, his huge collection of other designs are very well regarded too. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm this one's not cheap to implement but apparently rocks da entire house! http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/OBL-15.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 Thanks for everyone’s posts, I’m just trying to digest everything. Is there a definition for an OB speaker Vs dipole speaker? I’m getting a little confused/ mixed up? Thanks for the heads up with Speakerbits, I’ll chase them up shortly & discuss options as the XO design above is pretty basic & I may tweak it a bit based on feedback on here etc. @niss_man thanks for spending the time to better explain the XO components & design, it’s helping to better understand the interplay between components. Keep the posts, ideas coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 As far as I understand, dipole speakers radiate the same energy forwards and backwards. Similar to open baffle..except some open baffles may have a (just an example here) tweeter that has a closed back and so radiates it's energy toward the listener only and not behind as it has a closed back. If you use a dipole ribbon (open back and front) then that would become a dipole speaker as the same sound that emits forward does so backwards as well. Some thing like these apogees are true dipole ribbon speakers Something like these pure audio project speakers arent "true" dipoles as it has a horn tweeter which only radiates towards the listener and not behind. Usually the term open baffle and dipole are used interchangably although there are differences. Now the difference in sound between the 2 ? Thats something I wouldn't bother commenting on as I've heard heaps of speakers over the years and all can sound good or bad depending on implementation but as a general statement I do find open baffle/dipole bass to have less "room" interactions and therefore in general tend to give more insight into the bass sounds. May I suggest downloading somthing like "xsim" (free) and some frd files (frequency response) and zma (impedance files) of drivers to easily see what is happening when you design your own crossovers. By the way, Jantzen australia distributor is speakerbug not speakerbits. https://speakerbug.com.au/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 14 hours ago, niss_man said: As far as I understand, dipole speakers radiate the same energy forwards and backwards. Similar to open baffle..except some open baffles may have a (just an example here) tweeter that has a closed back and so radiates it's energy toward the listener only and not behind as it has a closed back. If you use a dipole ribbon (open back and front) then that would become a dipole speaker as the same sound that emits forward does so backwards as well. Some thing like these apogees are true dipole ribbon speakers Something like these pure audio project speakers arent "true" dipoles as it has a horn tweeter which only radiates towards the listener and not behind. Usually the term open baffle and dipole are used interchangably although there are differences. Now the difference in sound between the 2 ? Thats something I wouldn't bother commenting on as I've heard heaps of speakers over the years and all can sound good or bad depending on implementation but as a general statement I do find open baffle/dipole bass to have less "room" interactions and therefore in general tend to give more insight into the bass sounds. May I suggest downloading somthing like "xsim" (free) and some frd files (frequency response) and zma (impedance files) of drivers to easily see what is happening when you design your own crossovers. By the way, Jantzen australia distributor is speakerbug not speakerbits. https://speakerbug.com.au/ Yeah, mine are a bit like that in that my Aurum Cantus G3Si ribbons are closed back and forward facing. I also have some bullet tweeters firing up at the ceiling to get around this a bit making them omni directional despite also being closed back as they're basically compression horns. This ensures the speakers sound good from litterally anywhere including standing beside or behind the speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share Posted December 11, 2020 Hi All, Been a bit busy at work but have been doing some research I've been receiving some helpful advice on the XO from a Nigel at Speakerbug in Qld (Thanks @niss_man for the recommendation). I've also emailed Lii Audio for pricing & delivery times into Adelaide for their W-15 woofers & possibly the Fast-8 (or Silver-8) full range driver but I've not heard back from them so I'll hit them up on their FB page. If I do use the Lii Audio Fast-8 (Crystal 10 too expensive for me at the moment), as posted above, this the recommended 2-way XO: In terms of parts for this set up, I'll will most likely use the following: Jantzen CrossCap $35 ea Capacitors (next step up is the Standard-z at $85 ea). https://speakerbug.com.au/index.php?route=product/category&path=25_73 Nigel suggests that you can run a Cornell bypass capacitor in parallel (see below) which will create an overall more mature/natural sounding speaker....& cheaper than the next step up. Jantzen P-Core 5.6mH 15AWG (0.25 Ω) Inductor at $35 ea. https://speakerbug.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&path=18_45&product_id=881 Superes 10 watt 2.2Ω & 6.8Ω Resistors https://speakerbug.com.au/index.php?route=product/category&path=33_27 XO design suggest 20 watt but others have said 10 watts ok....can also run in parallel to increase to 20 watt. I'll also buy some silver coated tin speaker wire plus binding posts & I'm done! BUT.......if I don't use the Lii Audio Fast-8 speaker & use Aurel Bryan fullrange 8" drivers.....does this change the specs for this speaker or the entire XO? The specs on the Aurel Bryan (FR8DFe-Mk2) 8" Full Range Speakers are: Fast 8 Specs Whilst I don't understand all (most ) of the measurements, they do look quite different so I'm assuming the XO design may have to change if using the Aurel Bryan speakers? Any suggestions, please let me know. Cheers Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 If this is your first attempt at building a pair of DIY speakers I would recommend sticking to a prebuilt design such as the leonidas or other diy kits. If you have the experience and knowledge as well as all the measuring tools and software tools and know how to use them then you would happily be able to mix and match drivers and also know what to change in the crossover to make it more suitable to your tastes. My recomendation if you are looking purely at open baffle design copy the Leonidas OB design as above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 Hi Niss Man, I hear you.....I will be using the Leonidas design although I've stupidly bought the Silver 8 not either the Fast 8 or the Crystal 10 so I will reach out to the designer for advice on any changes to the XO with this different full-range speaker. I do have a group of interested & seemingly knowledgeable gents in the Adelaide Hills who will also be able too advise me.....kinda 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 H All, I think someone mentioned active crossovers earlier in this feed so I'm interested in exploring this, i.e. is something like this worth it or at $100 just junk? https://www.parts-express.com/rolls-sx45-stereo-two-way-mini-crossover-w-sub-output--245-1184 Cheers Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted December 30, 2020 Author Share Posted December 30, 2020 Hi All, I trust everyone had a great Christmas? Mine was a little scary as my Dad had a turn which required a trip to hospital & a pacemaker implanted 24 hours later but he's all goo now . Things have moved on a bit since my last post as I've ordered the speakers & they arrived the other day. Mate of mine @Grizzly had some left over 18mm MDF so we started to cut out all the parts for a Liionidas design OB (as I've posted above). I also bought some 18mm marine ply which we will use for the woofer baffle. Thanks also goes to @Tony M for use of his workshop & tools....made short work of the cutting out of the MDF. Finished MDF & Marine Ply Silver 8's (thankfully I put the plastic bag back on them!) Bonus 6" FR Drivers (I didn't order these??). Massive 15" Drivers with my daughter for scale! Tomorrow I'll buy some cheapo XO parts just as a mock up before buying the "proper" parts (mainly Jantzen). We also need to take the cutting out of the baffles to house the speakers which will take some doing to keep it all neat but I'm sure if we take it slow, it will be ok. I'll keep you all posted. Cheers Matt 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) On 05/12/2020 at 5:18 PM, sfdoddsy said: Dipole andOpen baffle are being used interchangeably in this thread, but they are not the same thing. To get dipole radiation from an open baffle you need progressively narrower baffles as the FR rises. No.... if we're being pedantic. Dipole is simply where the is two approximately equal lobes forwards and backwards. As wikipedia eloquently puts it a "dipole speaker in its simplest form cn be constructed by placing a loudspeaker on a flat panel". What you are talking about..... is constant (horisontal) directivity ...To achieve this in a dipole.... (as you said) it needs a baffle which narrows with frequency. Edited January 3, 2021 by davewantsmoore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 The woofers (Lii Audio W-15) I'm using have been specifically designed for OB use & do have x2 voice coils so I'm assuming then they are dipole or nothing to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony M Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) No, Matt - dipole refers purely to the soundwave direction - ie simultaneously front and back. I'm not sure why those drivers have two voicecoils, but I don't think it's related to the dipole bit. EDIT Aha! - here's an explanation of the 2 voice coils: http://www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/DualVoiceCoilDrivers.pdf Edited January 4, 2021 by Tony M 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hank73 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 9 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: The woofers (Lii Audio W-15) I'm using have been specifically designed for OB use & do have x2 voice coils so I'm assuming then they are dipole or nothing to do with it? Hi Mattyjtaylor, did you write these schematics up? based on this: Audio Dandy - How to enjoy High Resolution Audio (modelpromo.nl) how did you get on about the xo you're building? I'm working on building the same kit. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hank73 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 On 05/12/2020 at 2:12 AM, niss_man said: Here is a photo of my speakers using an inferior Passive crossover design of a proffesional speaker designer Leon Huijgen. The design can be found http://www.modelpromo.nl/The Liiondias Open Baffle Speaker.htm or on facebook group Lii Audio Hifi Drivers & Speakers Team or on Leons FB posts. Hi Niss_man, Nice work on the OB! And awesome noise treatment for that room (where did you get those purple panels and base traps?). I'm waiting for my kit to arrive and will be building them up. I went with Silver10 + W15. How is your Fast8 setup working ( sounding )for you? When you say the passive cross over is inferior, in which way? I'm newbie to DYI, I went this road in place of the PAP Duet15 with TangBand. cheers hank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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