Primare Knob Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) !!! SPOILER ALERT !!! If you don't like to know some details about the movie you might not want to read any further. In Frozen 2 on Blu Ray( with the DTS HD master audio track) near the end of the film Elsa is saving Arendelle from a tidal wave by waving her magic. This moment is accompanied by a massive push in the low frequencies and pushes my subs into distortion. The problem seems to come from using bass management for my 5 speakers (excl Left and Right in a 7.1 setup). I have to cut the bass management down by an additional -5dB for each bass managed speaker to get rid of distortion, and this is at a volume level that is -10dB down from reference. No other movie has presented this problem. Deep Water Horizon, Masters and Commanders, Apollo 13, First Man, etc are all within limits without distortions. I am wondering if anyone else has encountered this problem and if this could be flaw in the mixing of the sound track? Edited March 5, 2020 by Primare Knob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiebosco Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Frozen 2 is fairly bassy, but it's nothing extraordinary, Deep Water Horizon,though not super deep has far more bass. First Man has almost zero deep bass. What about the really heavy hitters like The Incredible Hulk, War Of the Worlds,Tron Legacy etc? Do they cause distortion? What subs do you have? Crossover point? this graph shows the bass (look at the dotted line) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiebosco Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) @Primare Knob I just played back the scene you are talking about several times, adding to the MV each run through, the last time was at Reference Level with subs about 3dB hot and I didn't find it a particularly difficult scene to play back and there was absolutely no audible distortion on my end, it was definitely louder than I would choose to play that scene at, but I wasn't sweating bullets or jumping for the remote either. I probably wouldn't attempt playback at that Master Volume with World War Z hand grenade scene, Olympus Has Fallen Washington Monument scene, Wonder Woman bracelet block scene, War of The Worlds pods emerge scene or Ready Player One Cataclyst bomb scene for example, as I honestly would fear for the structural integrity of my house Edited March 5, 2020 by jamiebosco 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primare Knob Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 3 hours ago, jamiebosco said: @Primare Knob I just played back the scene you are talking about several times, adding to the MV each run through, the last time was at Reference Level with subs about 3dB hot and I didn't find it a particularly difficult scene to play back and there was absolutely no audible distortion on my end, it was definitely louder than I would choose to play that scene at, but I wasn't sweating bullets or jumping for the remote either. I probably wouldn't attempt playback at that Master Volume with World War Z hand grenade scene, Olympus Has Fallen Washington Monument scene, Wonder Woman bracelet block scene, War of The Worlds pods emerge scene or Ready Player One Cataclyst bomb scene for example, as I honestly would fear for the structural integrity of my house I can't really understand it either. I did an analysis of some scenes and there is nothing out of the ordinary. The third pic is the troubled scene, but the other scenes don't give me issues which is funny. Bass Management adds about 7dB on top of the LFE and peaks at -13.5dB at my preferred volume setting at the troubled scene. When I playback only LFE at 100% volume the LFE channel peaks at -10dB and doesn't distort. I am getting the idea that bass management is a bit funny and need to take another look at it inside JRiver. Which scenes do you mean with Tron Legacy, War of the Worlds and World War Z. I have these movies. World War Z has at least 2 grenade scenes in it. Can you give me a rough indication of the time line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiebosco Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Tron Legacy, basically the whole movie is a bass fest but where Sam is "sucked into the grid" from his dad's arcade is one of the hottest, the light cycle scene is also good Tron Legacy Peak vs Average graph The second grenade in WWZ,around the 1hr04min mark it's like a sine wave drop in frequency from 60Hz down to nearly 10Hz Hand Grenade scene The War of The World's scene is where the first pod comes out of the ground with all the people standing around Pods Emerge scene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 22 hours ago, jamiebosco said: Frozen 2 is fairly bassy, but it's nothing extraordinary, Deep Water Horizon,though not super deep has far more bass. First Man has almost zero deep bass. What about the really heavy hitters like The Incredible Hulk, War Of the Worlds,Tron Legacy etc? Do they cause distortion? What subs do you have? Crossover point? this graph shows the bass (look at the dotted line) Hah! So you are over on the BEQ thread on AVS too! (I run the BEQ filter repositories for the b grade stuff!) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiebosco Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 4 hours ago, Mobe1969 said: Hah! So you are over on the BEQ thread on AVS too! (I run the BEQ filter repositories for the b grade stuff!) i grabbed that PvA from the "Ultimate List of Bass in Movies" thread on AVS, the BEQ guys are just so much faster at getting the graphs up I do read the BEQ thread from time to time, but EQing neutered movies is just a bridge to far for me mate, I just couldn't be stuffed lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 1 minute ago, jamiebosco said: i grabbed that PvA from the "Ultimate List of Bass in Movies" thread on AVS, the BEQ guys are just so much faster at getting the graphs up I do read the BEQ thread from time to time, but EQing neutered movies is just a bridge to far for me mate, I just couldn't be stuffed lol Oh gee, after listening to before and after on a few fav movies, I just can't go back (especially having Crowsons as well). Some are such glaring butchery it is criminal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primare Knob Posted March 7, 2020 Author Share Posted March 7, 2020 On 05/03/2020 at 9:23 PM, jamiebosco said: Tron Legacy, basically the whole movie is a bass fest but where Sam is "sucked into the grid" from his dad's arcade is one of the hottest, the light cycle scene is also good Tron Legacy Peak vs Average graph The second grenade in WWZ,around the 1hr04min mark it's like a sine wave drop in frequency from 60Hz down to nearly 10Hz Hand Grenade scene The War of The World's scene is where the first pod comes out of the ground with all the people standing around Pods Emerge scene Check, Check, double Check. All scene are fine for my subs incl bass management. I had to adjust the low frequency roll off for the subs with the War of the Worlds scene as they seem to be hitting x-max. Still the frozen scene is a troubled scene for some reason. It is not the frequency that is the issue, it is the level send to the amp that is troubling. It is (nearly) driving the amp into clipping and it al just sounds wrong. Send bass management to a second pair of subs (testing with this option at the moment), and it all sounds a lot smoother and cleaner. I think I might have found an indicator. The second lines ( on top of each other) below the cyan for Sub is the level for the Left and Right surround speaker. Their level is out of line with the surround back speakers, and louder than the main speakers. I'll have to check the setting on that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiebosco Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 It's certainly strange that this one particular (IMHO not too demanding) scene is causing distortion problems. I think you're onto something with the L&R surround levels Could you check another scene (if you have it) ? The Flight of The Phoenix (2004) plane crash scene has heavy use of all channels and one of the hottest recorded LFE tracks ever recorded, approaching 0dB at 32Hz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopefullguy Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 op what subs are you running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiebosco Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 57 minutes ago, hopefullguy said: op what subs are you running? DIY have a look in his Theatre thread linked in his sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 On 07/03/2020 at 3:01 PM, jamiebosco said: It's certainly strange that this one particular (IMHO not too demanding) scene is causing distortion problems. I think you're onto something with the L&R surround levels Could you check another scene (if you have it) ? The Flight of The Phoenix (2004) plane crash scene has heavy use of all channels and one of the hottest recorded LFE tracks ever recorded, approaching 0dB at 32Hz Oh yeah that Flight of the Phoenix is an utter beast. I saw it the first time a couple of weeks ago and my wife was complaining, said it knock stuff off her desk in her craft room next to the HT. Pretty good movie. Another movie that was impressive was Jack the Giant Slayer, when the beanstalk sprouts. I nearly lost it. I was running BEQ it as well 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primare Knob Posted April 3, 2020 Author Share Posted April 3, 2020 On 07/03/2020 at 4:01 PM, jamiebosco said: It's certainly strange that this one particular (IMHO not too demanding) scene is causing distortion problems. I think you're onto something with the L&R surround levels Could you check another scene (if you have it) ? The Flight of The Phoenix (2004) plane crash scene has heavy use of all channels and one of the hottest recorded LFE tracks ever recorded, approaching 0dB at 32Hz Have been away for a while. I don't have that particular movie, so I can't test it. I did a similar check using the analyzer with War of the Worlds, which showed the high levels, but all channels were more in sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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