Guest Muon N' Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, Mike13 said: Do you think that spikes are the wrong way to go then? I need to read @buddyev’s thread Use spikes, but sit them on Bamboo cutting boards, these are cheap at 20 bucks each from Ikea, might get some cheaper elsewhere, and place the White's Anti-vibration blocks under the cutting boards, 4 under each board, a pack of these of 8 are only 5 bucks from bunnings. Worst case is you have two nice cutting boards for kitchen use, but I think you will be surprised at how well this will work :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon N' Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 (edited) https://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/60233431/ https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-50-x-50-x-12mm-anti-vibration-squares-8-pack_p3961977 I use smaller and thinner bamboo board under my stands as I had these already. Can just barely see that the blocks are under the boards as they sink into the carpet with the weight of the ML-1's and the heavy quarter inch plate constructed stands. Being monitors on stands makes no difference, the speaker and stands on spikes in this situation are the same as floorstanders. I have employed the same things with two friends that have spiked floor-standers also with positive success. Extra antivibration blocks can be put to good use as isolation under TT platforms, and under equipment stand feet Edited November 10, 2019 by Muon N' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 19 hours ago, Mike13 said: Do you think that spikes are the wrong way to go then? I need to read @buddyev’s thread Depends if you want to isolate ... or couple , Mike! My view is that spkrs need to be spiked - to stop microscopic backwards movement ... this improves bass dynamics. Andy Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 54 minutes ago, andyr said: Depends if you want to isolate ... or couple , Mike! My view is that spkrs need to be spiked - to stop microscopic backwards movement ... this improves bass dynamics. Hmm. @davewantsmoore suggested idolisation I think in the other thread and you are both in the know. One thing I agree with is that a mix of techniques doesn’t make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) Okay. Speaker is now on sub pads and subs are on carpet. This will probably affect my DEQX settings! They guy that helped me do it didn’t hear as much difference as when he did his on wooden floors. As predicted, I didn’t hear a difference immediately. I’ll leave it this way for a while. Recommendation is to buy some isoacoutic feet so I’ll try that. Edited November 11, 2019 by Mike13 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 22 hours ago, almikel said: in answer to your original post I've always meant to isolate my TD18s (with PSE144s on top) from the timber floor they sit on, but have never got to it - my plan was to use appropriately designed sorbothane or equivalent... ...currently they sit directly on the floor - handy for minor changes in position. mike With all the treatment in your room I wonder whether it would still make a difference. (I saw the pics of your insulation recently. I think your wife made a good decision making you move downstairs. It must sound great! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon N' Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 5 hours ago, Mike13 said: Hmm. @davewantsmoore suggested idolisation I think in the other thread and you are both in the know. One thing I agree with is that a mix of techniques doesn’t make sense. Not everything that is real makes sense, and not everything that makes sense is real. Your journey though, and I hope you find a way that works well for you. 4 hours ago, Mike13 said: With all the treatment in your room I wonder whether it would still make a difference. (I saw the pics of your insulation recently. I think your wife made a good decision making you move downstairs. It must sound great! ) Two different things being addressed, so yeah, it would make a difference for him depending on what he uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southerly Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 My listening room is upstairs on the worst kind of floor, a suspended wooden beamed and t&g pine clad surface. At the moment they have Norwegian Soundcare Superspikes which I bought cheaply years ago from a Taiwan seller. The floor is bloody awful but as the S/spikes are threaded I can easily balance each speaker, this is so important to get this absolutely correct. Even a little bit of off balance and it will do really nasty things to the speaker o/put. Just as an experiment I bought from my local Aldi, a German s/market chain noted for quality but cheap gear a pair of wheeled furniture moving boards. Each can take up to 150K load. I can easily add a marble block onto the board and sit the speaker on top of this and use or remove the Soundcare spikes. However Sod's law kicks in, I will then have to make a box to sit my listening chair on so that my ear is level with the Toningen tweeters in my Heybrook Sextet Mk IV speakers - it never bloody ends does it! My ideal floor would be factory made reinforced concrete flooring plates (absolutely flat) with wooden battens finished with oak t&g boards, expensive but WTH you can't take it with you and a ceiling finished in pine t&G. There was a concert hall built in East Anglia using materials like this and the sound was superb - the morons forgot to add fire and smoke detectors and it burnt down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) On 11/11/2019 at 7:32 PM, Mike13 said: Hmm. @davewantsmoore suggested idolisation I think in the other thread and you are both in the know. "to stop microscopic backwards movement" eh?! ..... Hmmm, Know (No). Isolating the speaker means that it is protected from vibration both leaving and entering the speaker .... although I don't think any of this is as important as how any resonances are managed within the cabinet structure itself. Edited November 12, 2019 by davewantsmoore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 10/11/2019 at 7:37 PM, Mike13 said: Interesting. It seems counterintuitive to me that the minimum surface area of the spikes provides maximum coupling. Why would you choose one over another? I thought it was all about isolation and de-coupling. Think of it this way - pressure= force per unit area the greater force(mass) the smaller the unit area, the greater pressure pinning speaker down ... ie it won’t move /rock if think heavy speakers can’t rock move think again ... have seen big infinity behemoth making audible vibration on concrete floor... a piece of carpet under helped things like carpet or sponge and such do not isolate they just disperse vibrations. Spikes instead make sure don’t vibrate in first place as pressure pinning down is so huge vs weight of speaker spread over say large surface area of speaker base : if think about it you can’t really totally isolate since others wise if completely decoupled the speakers would flop over or be wobbling around ! also with regards decoupling a lot of energy is airborne and resonance ... you can’t stop they ... anyone would know with big subs ... only thing can do is dampen or stiffen-lighten the sympathetically vibrating thing in your case I’d place some 5c pieces under your hulgich spikes if worried about marking the hard floor under in my case my spikes go through carpet to wooden floor under Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 15 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: how any resonances are managed within the cabinet structure itself. Must be why there are heavy metal sheets in Osborne speakers. 15 hours ago, betty boop said: if think about it you can’t really totally isolate since others wise if completely decoupled the speakers would flop over or be wobbling around ! That makes me think about how they attach so many speakers to a pole at a stadium without everything moving around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, Mike13 said: Must be why there are heavy metal sheets in Osborne speakers. That makes me think about how they attach so many speakers to a pole at a stadium without everything moving around. If the poles flapping around in the breeze Not that think they’re working on much in ways of hifi for sound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 16 hours ago, betty boop said: if think heavy speakers can’t rock move think again ... have seen big infinity behemoth making audible vibration on concrete floor... a piece of carpet under helped Yes! We need to be clear that this is a different thing to "speaker moving backwards" (ie. "needs to be solidly held in place with spikes"). Cabinet vibrations .... from energy moving through cabinet .... rather than energy moving the entire speaker forwards (and of course, backwards - which is often missed from the "rigidly spike" analysis), is what is important. There are actually a lot of different ways you can successfully approach dealing with that energy. 16 hours ago, betty boop said: Spikes instead make sure don’t vibrate in first place as pressure pinning down is so huge vs weight of speaker spread over say large surface area of speaker base : It depends on the cabinet construction. This is why there is no universal answer to the question to decouple or rigidly couple..... although for the most, decouple is more logical, once we understand that the entire speaker does not significantly move backwards (and forwards) due to the motion of the transducers. Even a naked driver (sans cabinet mass) hanging in free air, does not move significantly..... the difference between it (free) and a cabinet, again, are how the resonances in the structure are managed (or "not"). 16 hours ago, betty boop said: if think about it you can’t really totally isolate since others wise if completely decoupled the speakers would flop over or be wobbling around ! No. You can "completely isolate" down to a very low frequency. The reason for this is that the static forces which stop the speaker for falling over are "close to DC". 16 hours ago, betty boop said: also with regards decoupling a lot of energy is airborne No. 16 hours ago, betty boop said: and resonance Yes. This is what is important. Both for energy entering the speaker, and leaving the speaker.... although the later is dramatically more important. 16 hours ago, betty boop said: anyone would know with big subs No. You can decouple a large subwoofer just fine, if you want to.... but again how the resonances are managed within the structure is the important thing. Contact (or not) with the "outside world" affects this. People seem to assume that if you put a speaker (Eg a subwoofer) on a very good "isolation platform", ie. so the entire cabinet is free to move .... that the motion of the driver is going to move the cabinet, and that this is going to result in a "soft" sound. They are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Mike13 said: Must be why there are heavy metal sheets in Osborne speakers. Yes. 1 hour ago, Mike13 said: That makes me think about how they attach so many speakers to a pole at a stadium without everything moving around. The movement of the speaker driver does not move the pole (significantly). It's just an audiophile fantasy, based on "what seems right". When you investigate the physics of it in much more detail, it doesn't really happen the way they assume it does. Yes, you'll get differences between the two, it's possible one can be better than the other in certain contrived situations .... but the difference which is being observed is to do with how vibrations within the cabinet (or driver) structure are being transformed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 12/11/2019 at 5:44 AM, Southerly said: My listening room is upstairs on the worst kind of floor, a suspended wooden beamed and t&g pine clad surface. At the moment they have Norwegian Soundcare Superspikes which I bought cheaply years ago from a Taiwan seller. The floor is bloody awful but as the S/spikes are threaded I can easily balance each speaker, this is so important to get this absolutely correct. Sounds like it does what you need... I've dealt with some wonky floors in listening rooms, a real PITA. If you wanted isolation, then there are solutions out there which can handle not flat floors.... but if it ain't broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decky Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 I vaguely remember that I wrote an essay of a sort on this topic many years ago. Maybe it is still somewhere on the server if Marc did not purge old data. In short - your current spike setup is perfect for your floor material. I would not change anything. That being said - nothing stops you to experiment and draw conclusions for yourself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surprisetech Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 I like to be able to move my speakers around a little. Apart from experimenting with position and toe-in, there is also a practical reason in the room they're in, so I wanted feet that would allow that to be done easily. They are big heavy speakers and the room is carpeted. Since they were DIY speakers, I came up with some suitable DIY feet. I used the TIC Round Slide Glides from Bunnings and Acoustica Noiseshield material. They support the big towers really well and make it really easy to move them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southerly Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 For those who have suspended wooden floors there is another option. Once you have identified the 'sweet spot' for your speakers you can use Pozi headed screws into the floorboards and joists and locate the spikes directly into the centre of the screw head. This works very well if you want to directly couple the speaker. If you have a carpeted room then if it doesn't float your boat you can remove the screws and there should be very little sign of the experiment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pim Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 18 hours ago, Southerly said: For those who have suspended wooden floors there is another option. Once you have identified the 'sweet spot' for your speakers you can use Pozi headed screws into the floorboards and joists and locate the spikes directly into the centre of the screw head. This works very well if you want to directly couple the speaker. If you have a carpeted room then if it doesn't float your boat you can remove the screws and there should be very little sign of the experiment. Be careful if you're thinking of screwing through carpet. If the screws catches a thread, it can pull the carpet apart. Pre-cut a little cross into the carpet first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southerly Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 On 15/11/2019 at 8:00 AM, Pim said: Be careful if you're thinking of screwing through carpet. If the screws catches a thread, it can pull the carpet apart. Pre-cut a little cross into the carpet first. Good point Pim. This method really does work with suspended wooden floors. Even though I have bought a couple of furniture moving trollys, if this doesn't work I will go back to the Pozi screw method. The UK is notorious for the 'carpeted home syndrome' - great for carpet mites and very unhealthy. An old colleague of my wife who kept a very clean home had to have all her carpets removed and destroyed and a decontamination team called in. In audio terms they do nothing for clarity and detail in a sound system. I don't know of any country in Europe that has fully carpeted homes. Instead there is an obsession with tiled reinforced concrete floors, coupled with 3 inch clay block internal walls = a horrible hard echoing sound, how anyone can listen to music in such an environment is beyond me. I live in a house built in 1965 so it has wooden floors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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