Anyone have a believable answer to this???

[Guest rmpfyf]

28 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

That's very charitable towards the OP. I thought I was being polite saying, "So unfortunately I think the underlying premise for this thread may be a little moot.".  It appears there currently are a multiplicity of connections to the same phase within the immediate vicinity of the OP's residence, whatever the situation may have been 5 or so years ago. That's a very different picture to what the OP was suggesting of being the sole user for a stretch of a couple of kilometres.

 

I agree that changing from connecting to one phase to another could make a difference, if one phase had horrible characteristics and if the equipment being connected were sensitive/vulnerable.  

 

I think I've mentioned this before on this forum but the only apparent effect on audio I've ever been aware of from "dirty mains power" has been from the 1050Hz control tones used in Brisbane to control electric hot water systems and other controlled loads. I don't hear the tones with my current system, but I did hear them on audio systems in decades past. I can still hear the tones with a very old clock radio.

 

Fortunately they don't last very long. I suspect they are of a lower peak to peak voltage than they typically used to be, though that's just a hunch on my part.

 

@MLXXX

 

I have the good fortune in my line of work - and occasionally much head scratching and follicular loss - to be able to investigate and fret about mains quality. For one, it's a highly variable thing. We are guaranteed a quality of supply with broad tolerances and contingency conditions beyond these. This will run all appliances intended for mains capably. If we're judging the audible artefacts of the bleeding edge of 'I'd like a perfect 230VAC sine wave please', then that's not what mains reticulation is intended for. Nor is it something that's particularly simple to engineer at any reasonable power level. 

 

Whilst i don't think I've the license to publish data I've plenty here that I can point to showing different harmonic and other characteristics between adjacent mains phases. We really don't know what the OP's pre and post conditions were, or the relative sensitivity of his equipment to as much. Do sparkies have a habit of overloading the red phase? Sure. What would it take the 'spike' power quality? I have no idea what's downstream of his feeder or how it's configured, could be well within threshold. Would a few solar systems exporting like crazy have a tangible effect? Absolutely. Who knows whats there, short of measuring the three phases at high accuracy over time. 

 

Statistically the effect of powering a single phase audiophile load from different mains phases is more likely to sound obvious than not. There are many many reasons tough 

 

I wouldn't compare control load tones, they're a very obvious case of power quality being impacted. The discussion is around something considerably more nuanced, though that's not to suggest it's not there.

 

I (again) doubt the notion of being the only customer of one particular phase at the time, I can't exclude it totally though, neither can we all. 

 

No reason to doubt the OP's experience. Glad he shared.

[MLXXX]

2 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Statistically the effect of powering a single phase audiophile load from different mains phases is more likely to sound obvious than not. There are many many reasons tough 

Are you saying that not only is it likely that changing to a different phase will make an audible difference for "an audiophile load" but that it would also be likely to make an obvious audible difference? Or have I misconstrued?

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

Are you saying that not only is it likely that changing to a different phase will make an audible difference for "an audiophile load" but that it would also be likely to make an obvious audible difference? Or have I misconstrued?

 

It's not about making a difference 'for' an audiophile load but 'to' it. 

 

We can accept that the likelihood of three mains phases having identical power quality is approx. zero. Some things are common - line frequency f'rinstance - other factors are dependent on what else is connected to the phase up and down the street. This varies across phases and is transient in time.

 

So yes, there will be a difference, and it is measurable with usual power equipment. Whether significant or not depends on circumstance. @georgehifi may have had a significant reticulated line issue for all we know.

 

Whether or not you'll hear a difference is another thing dependent on this and many other factors. With a reasonable sensitivity to mains power quality then yes, there's likely to be an audible difference. Certainly was the case here. 

 

Plenty of scope for different power quality phase to phase and for George's equipment to sound different.

[georgehifi]

Quote

there could be a further connection just 2 doors down

That's possible as there was a couple of new houses built north in the last couple of years, and the transformer is up near Warringah Mall.

 

I can tell you @MLXXX that when I was put on the road side phase 5 or more years ago, that no one north and south of me in the street is on it from what I could tell, that there was difference for the better. (btw I asked at the time why is this phase better, he said "because we're (linesmen) are lazy and can't be bothered reaching across to the road phase") so everyone gets put on the footpath phase. 

 

 

 

But this whole thread has shifted of topic, which was "why my sound is better in the day" which it's always been, even before the "phase change" and all the in house changes I did.

And I asked, is it possible my solar panels have something to do with it, some sort of cleaning or regulation???? 

 

Cheers George 

Edited June 5, 2019 by georgehifi

[zippi]

If power rail, power reliability/stability is potentially so noticeable in a high end system, why wouldn't people (eg OP) consider a UPS solution and cut out the factor all together. That could make for an easy A/B (hell even blinded if you like) comparison, and a permanent fix. I don't think my system would have anywhere near the definition for any of it it matter significantly, however (quite a few) people do. And 5000VA to 10000 VA versions seem obtainable for less than $5000, which in the scheme of things might be less than 10% of a value of the whole system for some people. Has anyone contemplated this? I mean making one of these units dedicated for you audio equipment rather than rely on inherently trying to "nail jelly to a wall" by changing rails etc...

 

https://www.amazon.com/APC-Smart-UPS-5000VA-Rack-mountable-SURTD5000RMXLP3U/dp/B0021BSK6M

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?LH_CAds=&_ex_kw=&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_mPrRngCbx=1&_nkw=APC+Smart-UPS+5000VA+230V+Rackmount%2FTower&_sacat=&_sadis=&_sop=12&_udhi=&_udlo=&_fosrp=1

https://www.amazon.com/Apc-Smart-Ups-Srt-10000va-230v/dp/B00KVD91RE

https://www.ebay.com/b/10000VA-Uninterruptible-Power-Supplies/99265/bn_341554

 

I seem to remember a Japanese retire and a hi-fi aficionado getting a power pole installed for their house solely, however even that drastic step is open to interpretation re the effectiveness and reliability of the power obtained, which to my mind the above UPS would fix. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

[MLXXX]

2 hours ago, georgehifi said:

And I asked, is it possible my solar panels have something to do with it, some sort of cleaning or regulation???? 

Hi George. So many audiophiles have argued the exact opposite! That is, that their solar panel inverter pollutes the quality of their power! However some people in rural areas depend 100% on off-grid solar power and we don't seem to  hear a barrage of complaints from them about adverse effects on their audio systems.

 

I think that as matters stand  you are probably very well off as regards voltage stability because  you are so close to two distribution transformers, one mounted on a power pole about 150 metres from the main road, and one even closer than that, but this is only my assumption: I strongly suspect that the buildings opposite your place where the power goes underground would house a distribution transformer. Hard to know though whether your power is -- as I type --actually connected to the mains power coming from that direction because small switches located on the power poles can be moved to open circuit. These switches are typically much  too small to show up on Google Earth imagery.

 

Where I reside a lot of electrical reticulation work was done about a year ago and these very small switches were almost all moved to the open circuit position. I've noticed that they have now been closed again. I'm not referring to the much larger switches that can be used to isolate the high voltage supply that feeds the distribution transformers and which can be operated from ground level.

 

I think that people located some distance from the nearest distribution transformer would be more vulnerable to voltage variation from neighbours as regards their neighbours' consumption and/or their neighbours' solar panel power fed into the local mains power network. Conversely people very close to a distribution transformer will have a low impedance path to what could be a relatively stable supply.

[sir sanders zingmore]

14 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Very true. I've linked to the following online calculator a number of times in the past on this forum. It shows a distinct attenuation of higher frequencies at levels of relative humidity around 10 to 20%.  [In a concert hall where a member of the audience can be seated quite some distance from the stage, it is no wonder that with air-conditioning operating to lessen the humidity that the sound can become quite dull.]   http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm

 

 

That show attenuation at 30m. 

I wonder what it is at more normal listening distances 

[Ittaku]

4 hours ago, zippi said:

If power rail, power reliability/stability is potentially so noticeable in a high end system, why wouldn't people (eg OP) consider a UPS solution and cut out the factor all together. That could make for an easy A/B (hell even blinded if you like) comparison, and a permanent fix. I don't think my system would have anywhere near the definition for any of it it matter significantly, however (quite a few) people do. And 5000VA to 10000 VA versions seem obtainable for less than $5000, which in the scheme of things might be less than 10% of a value of the whole system for some people. Has anyone contemplated this? I mean making one of these units dedicated for you audio equipment rather than rely on inherently trying to "nail jelly to a wall" by changing rails etc...

 

https://www.amazon.com/APC-Smart-UPS-5000VA-Rack-mountable-SURTD5000RMXLP3U/dp/B0021BSK6M

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?LH_CAds=&_ex_kw=&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_mPrRngCbx=1&_nkw=APC+Smart-UPS+5000VA+230V+Rackmount%2FTower&_sacat=&_sadis=&_sop=12&_udhi=&_udlo=&_fosrp=1

https://www.amazon.com/Apc-Smart-Ups-Srt-10000va-230v/dp/B00KVD91RE

https://www.ebay.com/b/10000VA-Uninterruptible-Power-Supplies/99265/bn_341554

 

I seem to remember a Japanese retire and a hi-fi aficionado getting a power pole installed for their house solely, however even that drastic step is open to interpretation re the effectiveness and reliability of the power obtained, which to my mind the above UPS would fix. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

UPSs for the most part don't deliver power until the mains power is cut out. I've measured the output from them and it is as equally noisy as without them in place, and if you cut the power from them and run off their batteries, they're usually much noisier than the mains power! These devices are not designed for clean power, just emergency power.

[MLXXX]

24 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

That show attenuation at 30m. 

I wonder what it is at more normal listening distances 

This attenuation (atmospheric) is over and above the loss  due to distance (due to the sound pressure wave radiating towards an ever-increasing notional spherical boundary). This atmospheric attenuation is a linear relationship with distance (twice the distance, twice the attenuation).

 

If you look at the online calculator you will see that the answers provided are in decibels per metre.  So to find the atmospheric attenuation in dB at 3 metres, you could simply divide the figure on the graph for 30 metres by 10.  Of course reflected sound will need to travel further than direct sound.

Edited June 6, 2019 by MLXXX

[georgehifi]

14 hours ago, eltech said:

Going by the time you mentioned, my guess is that in your residential area, not many neighbours are using power on this phase at this time. In the afternoons, people start cooking, and kids come home from school and turn on computers and game systems etc. Power line harmonics get worse in the afternoon and evening.

This Eltech, I can get my head around, and thought about it in the past, and yes it's residential, save for one thing I forgot to mention, I have across the main road 8-10 tennis courts with whatever flood lights they use in the evening, I wonder about them now, but they'd be on a completely separate lines to me as they're on the other side of the main road.

 

Cheers George   

[MLXXX]

4 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

I have across the main road 8-10 tennis courts with whatever flood lights they use in the evening, I wonder about them now, but they'd be on a completely separate lines to me as they're on the other side of the main road.

However at the service station just down the road from you where the power emerges from underground there is a low voltage line across the main road that leads up to near the tennis courts. The cable strung across the road would be an insulated bundle including all three phases. The tennis courts very possibly are connected to more than one phase. 

 

You'll find a lot of interconnections in the low voltage network (what used to be described as nominal 240V/415V AC) that supplies residences and small businesses. This is so that the loads on the distribution transformers can be balanced out. Also if fuses to a particular distribution transformer blow because of an internal short circuit in the transformer, nearby transformers can take over the load.

[georgehifi]

29 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

However at the service station just down the road from you where the power emerges from underground there is a low voltage line across the main road that leads up to near the tennis courts.

But the line guys that put me on the outside phase, said my transformer was the other way up near Warringah Mall that they changed the tap on to give me 230-235v instead of >250v after doing the couple weeks of logging.

 

Cheers George

Edited June 6, 2019 by georgehifi

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

Of course reflected sound will need to travel further than direct sound.

Interesting. So it’s possible that humidity changes the tonal balance between direct and reflected sound. 

This could affect the perception of clarity even if the speaker has even dispersion 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Sir Sanders Zingmore

[MLXXX]

22 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

But the line guys that put me on the outside phase, said my transformer was the other way up near Warringah Mall that they changed the tap on to give me 230-235v instead of >250v after doing the couple weeks of logging.

 

Cheers George

Yeah well that was 5 or more years ago.  

 

There could have been many changes since then, and more transformers having their taps adjusted.

 

If you really want to gather your own evidence, you could have a look at the overhead poles near your place, and look for whether the very small manual switches on some poles are closed or open. If they are closed (as more often than not they are) then your phase will connect to the building across the road from you (next to the service station), to the transformer 150m or so up your side street, and indirectly to other transformers in your district.

Edited June 6, 2019 by MLXXX

[Ittaku]

1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Interesting. So it’s possible that humidity changes the tonal balance between direct and reflected sound. 

This could affect the perception of clarity even if the speaker has even dispersion 

I would say at most normal home listening distances of up to 5m the effect is probably negligible.

[MLXXX]

38 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I would say at most normal home listening distances of up to 5m the effect is probably negligible.

I would tend to agree. It would be more of an issue with a medium sized auditorium, and I think would potentially become a distinct issue with a large concert hall.

 

However if you listen carefully even a 1dB change may be able to be heard, and of course very, very easily measured. The same cannot be said of certain other issues that are raised on this forum as matters of concern (i.e. it is very hard to verify that the matter of concern has actually been heard, and in addition no evidence has been supplied of any measured difference in relation to the matter of concern).

[Ittaku]

Just now, MLXXX said:

I would tend to agree. It would be more of an issue with a medium sized auditorium, and I think would potentially become a distinct issue with a large concert hall.

 

However if you listen carefully even a 1dB change may be able to be heard, and of course very, very easily measured. The same cannot be said of certain other issues that are raised on this forum as matters of concern (i.e. it is very hard to verify that the matter of concern has actually been heard, and in addition no evidence has been supplied of any measured difference in relation to the matter of concern).

Oh I wouldn't say it's inaudible either. In fact I use a humidifier in my own listening room pretty much all the time to take that variable out of the equation.

[TerryO]

Again, lots of interesting reading about how to figure out what power supply issue is causing the problem... but surely the question that should be asked .... what is the answer that covers all of these various issues?

.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by TerryO

[TerryO]

George, while we have previously disagreed  big time on a number of different topics, still if we lived in the same town I would be more than happy to loan you the P10 Power regenerator so you could see for yourself what difference they can make to a system and at the least you would find out if power quality is indeed the problem you have.

 

Anyway why not just find out if anyone from the forum who may live near you has one and would be prepared to loan you it for a week or so. 

 

Just a thought.

 

cheers Terry.

Edited June 6, 2019 by TerryO

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, TerryO said:

Lots of interesting reading about how to figure out what power supply issue is causing the problem... but surely the question that should be asked is .... what is the answer that covers all of these various issues?

That could be considered to be jumping the gun somewhat. It might be advisable to establish firstly whether the audio system is actually changing its performance, and secondly whether that change is caused by mains power supply variations/impurities.

 

Here's something: ambient temperature. All other things being equal, air temperature tends to be higher during the day than at night.  Here's another thing: the longer a power amp is used and the higher the volume setting, the more it will heat up.

 

Perhaps, though, a person could hire/borrow a power conditioner and see whether that seemed to make a difference when in and out of circuit.  You could do immediate A B testing with it. It might help too if you could vary the voltage as part of the testing.

 

[I note that if you don't take measurements, and don't make audio recordings, and rely solely on your memory of how equipment sounded the day before or the night before, that is a very big ask.  Subtle changes could escape detection. Conversely, differences in your physical or mental state could lead you to think there was a subtle difference.]

 

Edit: I now see TerryO that you've suggested the borrowing of a power regenerator.

Edited June 6, 2019 by MLXXX

[Addicted to music]

On 05/06/2019 at 9:47 PM, MLXXX said:

I don't doubt that could be true as a general statement.

 

However in Sydney, I have always assumed the small low cross-member on the power pole would be used for street lighting when the configuration is as per the upper right part of this Google Earth street view pic:-

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe the OP should move into a street with no wires on the lamp posts ...  real magic here; lamp posts in the ground that lights up at night and no wires and every home has power....

Because the wires are nowhere in sight it means it’s not subjected to temperature or environmental variations, or where feather friends populate and crap all over  the wires effecting its electrical properties......

its no wonder I can never here the difference....

[georgehifi]

12 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

However in Sydney, I have always assumed the small low cross-member on the power pole would be used for street lighting when the configuration is as per the upper right part of this Google Earth street view pic:-

That's what mine is https://ibb.co/7jK6sn1

 

Quote

I would be more than happy to loan you the P10 Power regenerator so you could see for yourself what difference they can make to a system and at the least you would find out if power quality is indeed the problem you have.

Thanks, but I've already have some and tried many others. 

But I never use them on my two ME850's only straight into the wall anything else was detrimental to the stiffness of their supplies and to their sound.  

 

 Cheers George

Edited June 7, 2019 by georgehifi

[Guest deanB]

I didn't find the P10 to be a cure all device. Some days my valve amps would hum and I tried with and then without the P10, still hummed.

I liked it for the voltage consistency factor but it didn't cure every bit of crap from the grid. 

I sold it because the Doge monos used 50%-60% of the P10's capacity and after a few hours upper midrange through to treble would start to sound confused. I went back to using a Dectet and the abnormality didn't reoccur. I keep a voltage meter plugged into the dedicated line and don't use my valve amp during excessive under/over voltage.

[Assisi]

On 02/06/2019 at 1:56 PM, Assisi said:

Where’d you buy it from? Would be keen to try one here.

@rmpfyf,

 

This is the Review that I read that started my interest in the Ground Master.

 

https://theaudiophileman.com/ground-master-puritan-review/

John

[Guest rmpfyf]

3 hours ago, Assisi said:

@rmpfyf,

 

This is the Review that I read that started my interest in the Ground Master.

 

https://theaudiophileman.com/ground-master-puritan-review/

John

 

Nice bit of kit at a reasonable price - I'm going to run one through a power services contractor in a few months I think to check legality. 

 

The photo in the article showing the underside of the unit gives a good description of what's intended functionality.