Dolby Surround/Atmos - Ceiling mounted/installed "side" surrounds?

[Arrjo]

Ahoy!

 

So I'm heading towards the pointy (purchasing) end of my home theatre kit out so I decided to draw up a diagram to help map out speaker placements, which will in turn drive my receiver purchase.

 

One of the things that's come out of this is that I don't have anywhere to mount/install the side surrounds to be in spec for Dolby Atmos

 

Ideally I'd like to go down the path of having a 7.2.4 setup, but unless the side surrounds can put in the ceiling without sacrificing sound quality then I'm not really sure how this is going to work 

 

From pic:

• Left speaker can go above the window, but will be 2m further away than the right speaker if installed opposite.
• Right speaker can't be installed in spec due to tiled fireplace (floor to ceiling)
• Primary sitting position can't be moved due to WAF

 

 

We'll deal with the logistical nightmare of convincing my infinitely better half that we should install 6 speakers in the ceiling at a later date

 

Does anyone have any experience with ceiling mounting surrounds? Pros/cons?

 

Cheers

RJ

 

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Arrjo
Resized image.

[brabs]

The sides should really be ear height or a bit above. I would stick with 5.2.4. You don’t want your side up high with the Atmos speakers and back to front panning will sound “off”

[Arrjo]

2 minutes ago, brabs said:

The sides should really be ear height or a bit above. I would stick with 5.2.4. You don’t want your side up high with the Atmos speakers and back to front panning will sound “off”

Thanks @brabs - Seeing as the standard 5.1 Dolby spec doesn't have rear speakers, how would the setup in my pic work as they are technically classified as "rear"? Or is this a case of "That's where they are so that'll have to do"?

 

[brabs]

You are right,  but I think it would be ok. Can you move your left side next to the window. Is it possible to move the right side around a little more?

[Irek]

In your situation I would go with 5.1.2 (quality over quantity). There are surround in ceiling speakers that I used in the past with a good result - something like FOCAL 300ICLCR5 IN CEILING speakers. 

 

[Arrjo]

@brabs Unfortunately not - at this stage I'm thinking some small speakers either side of the couch on either a sideboard or coffee table (speaker stands won't fly unfortunately)

 

@Irek Cheers, I'll take a look

 

[brabs]

Ok, you can also point the side speakers into the side wall to reflect it back to the listening position, this will make the virtual speaker up to 10deg around to the side

[Snoopy8]

Why side speakers when it is difficult to mount and not likely to get WAF?  I agree with previous posters that a 5.2.2 or 5.2.4 is a better option and you will unlikely lose much in audio quality, especially if room is treated, sufficient amplification and room correction software used.

[Arrjo]

Thanks all - 5.2.4 it is for now 

 

Now for the receiver choice... I'm thinking an Anthem MRX 1120, but that's a conversation for a different thread

[davewantsmoore]

I might be misunderstanding something about the diagram, but how do you fit the surround speakers in?  (they should be located between 90 and 110 degrees)

[Arrjo]

3 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

I might be misunderstanding something about the diagram, but how do you fit the surround speakers in?  (they should be located between 90 and 110 degrees)

@davewantsmoore That's the issue. The only place I could put it to be between 90 & 110 is in the ceiling.

 

So the current situation is going to a 5.2.4 but with the "side" surrounds being where the "rear" speakers would be in a 7.2.4 configuration.

 

 

 

I suppose I could configure it as 7.2.4, but not plug anything into the side surrounds?

 

It's not optimal, but it's what I have to work with given WAF & room constraints.

 

I might try to include some actual side surrounds on side tables in future, but baby steps (I've only just told my wife I intend to put 4 speakers in the ceiling... )

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Arrjo

[brabs]

Can you lower the rear/sides? They should be at ear level with Atmos speakers, you don’t want them too close to the rear Atmos.

[betty boop]

yes I'd be lowering those "rear" surrounds as otherwise you wont have enough height differential for your height surrounds to work as heights  you want about 2ft - 1m of differential

[Arrjo]

Thanks @betty boop (Al)  If I move the rear ceiling speaker to the front of the Atmos spec range and drop the rear speaker down a bit (which I can subject to WAF), then I get ~80cm height differential.

 

(Just included the bar in the side profile - obviously drawing this as I go )

 

PS. Now you can see why I need a projector for this room

[brabs]

Top and front heights is also an option in most Atmos processors as well. 

[davewantsmoore]

11 hours ago, Arrjo said:

@davewantsmoore That's the issue. The only place I could put it to be between 90 & 110 is in the ceiling.

 

So the current situation is going to a 5.2.4 but with the "side" surrounds being where the "rear" speakers would be in a 7.2.4 configuration.

Yep - that makes sense.    The surround speakers like that isn't ideal ... but is kinda the best option you have.

 

EDIT:   Get the surround speakers as low as possible (ear height), and maybe consider 5.1.2..... originally I thought due to placement issues ..... but that's OK on second thoughts.   Now, I think the issue is the sloping ceiling.    I think 5.1.2 will work better.

Edited December 22, 2018 by davewantsmoore

[Arrjo]

Thanks @davewantsmoore, @brabs - So it feels like my options are shaping up as follows:

1. Find a workable/WAF-compliant side surround solution to give true side speakers
2. Look at 7.2.x but don't connect anything to the sides unless I solve the above. Obvious con here is I'd imagine side-channels are used more frequently than rear channels in most movies so there's be a noticeable audio "gap" (whether this is any worse than shipping my "sides" to the rear needs to be figured out).
3. If going down the 5.2.x path, and I still can't solve the side surround problem, then a 5.2.2 (as suggested by @Irek) may be the way to go due to the proximity of the rear speaker with the ceiling (although I have re-jigged this slightly based on feedback from @betty boop). Still have the incorrect layout of the rear "side" speaker issue however...

So the summary is, if I can't figure out a side speaker solution, I have to decide between and incomplete layout vs. incorrect layout?

 

Thanks for your feedback here Gang - I really appreciate it 

[Arrjo]

41 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

I think the issue is the sloping ceiling. I think 5.1.2 will work better.

I'm looking at something like the Paradigm CI Pro P80-A in-ceiling speakers as they have a built-in 30 degree offset to counter the 12 degree slope of the ceiling (I put the angle in the front Atmos speaker in the diagram). The rear speakers will be the non-angled versions (LINK) as the slope of the ceiling should work with me there.

[davewantsmoore]

6 hours ago, Arrjo said:

1. Look at 7.2.x but don't connect anything to the sides unless I solve the above. Obvious con here is I'd imagine side-channels are used more frequently than rear channels in most movies so there's be a noticeable audio "gap" (whether this is any worse than shipping my "sides" to the rear needs to be figured out).

Don't tell you processor you have 7 speakers but then only connect 5.   This will be much worse than moving the surround speakers to the "wrong place"  (eg. back rather than side).

6 hours ago, Arrjo said:

incomplete layout

Never do this.

 

If you have a 5 channel layout, and you move the surround speakers towards the back, as opposed to to the side .... then this isn't ideal, but will be ok.

 

When you consider the atmos overhead channels, it's important to make sure they are located properly with respect to the other channels  (the processor uses the expected difference in location/angle between the speakers) .... and so if you look at the overhead diagrams for the 5.1.2 and 5.1.4 layout, then you cannot really get the 5.1.4 layout to work the way it should  (you can't get your rear heights back far enough) ... and the distances to the front and back heights are different from each other.

[Arrjo]

Thanks @davewantsmoore - I now have a plan 

• I'm going to skip Atmos for the time being as I'm only going to get one opportunity to cut holes in the ceiling (thankfully cables have already been run & left in ceiling)
• Initial setup will be 5.1 with the "side" surrounds located in the rear
• Will spend the next 12 or so months looking for an acceptable solution for having true side surrounds (coffee table, tasteful stands, etc.)
• If I find a solution I'll install the ceiling speakers as 7.2.4, otherwise 5.2.2 with the rear "side" surrounds.

Bonus is I'll avoid the outlay on a new AVR, new sub, & ceiling speakers for a while (I have all of the other speakers ready to go)

 

Thanks again everyone - obviously still open to comments/feedback but I think I've got a plan here

[Arrjo]

18 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

distances to the front and back heights are different from each other.

Just thought I'd comment on this - while the distances between front and back heights are (slightly) different, I'd have thought they are still technically in spec as it's within the reference angle range? (I.e. you want the sound coming from between 30 & 55 degrees from the plane of vision to the screen). I'd hope the AVR would be able to make the necessary adjustments to delays to compensate?

 

This might be worth a new thread so people can easily find it if they are looking to do something similar.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Arrjo

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, Arrjo said:

I'd hope the AVR would be able to make the necessary adjustments to delays to compensate?

It can.    That compensates for the "direct arrival" (ie. if you draw a straight line from the speaker to the listener) .... the "reflected sound" (bouncing off the walls, ceiling etc.) will be quite different  from each other due to the sloping ceiling (assuming your drawing is roughly to scale).

 

A situation that people are ore familiar with, is just a simple stereo setup.   If you put the L speaker against a wall, and the R speaker in the open (or a different shape/size, etc. wall) .... then the sound will be unbalanced (no matter how much EQ you apply), and the imaging will not be as good, clear or precise.

 

This is why in your situation, just one overhead atmos channel will probably be better.

 

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, Arrjo said:

Thanks again everyone - obviously still open to comments/feedback but I think I've got a plan here

I would not be afraid to go for 5.2.2

 

People will tell you that "more speakers are better" .... and even Dolby making a passing recommendation to "go for .4 instead of .2"

.....  but the truth is that less speakers, setup better, will work better.