Bold claim I know, but when you mix a clueless but enthusiastic hobbyist with a talented professional, all sorts of things are possible.

 

Many people may consider my current audio setup pretty much as good as it gets for home cinema. In many respects, this is true.

 

But my room presents a challenge – I get significant mid bass suck out which I can’t satisfactorily address even with repositioning the speakers and seating, or room EQ.

 

I considered new speakers and was close to purchasing a couple of times. The speakers I looked into included JBL SCL 2, JBL 4722, Krix MX30, Procella Audio and Pro Audio technology.

 

However I realised any of the speakers I bought would likely have the same issue due to my room. And given the price of some these, I didn’t want to take a chance.  

 

I finally decided to engage Red Spade Audio to build custom speakers, with adjustable DSP to assist manage the issues in my room.

 

My brief to Paul was this:

• Modular, to make transport and placement easier
• On par with the capability of my current Seaton Cats (in terms of output and headroom). The Seatons have more headroom than I could ever handle, but no way was I going backwards.
• Active crossovers (I really like the ‘snappiness’ of the Seatons, which I understand is attributed to the active crossover)
• Adjustable DSP so I can tune the speakers to my room and tastes
• Low profile, to minimise space in my room

 

It’s been quite a journey with Paul (and still going). I reckon close to 100 emails back and forth and counting.

 

We started with an in-depth assessment of my room. This involved taking a large number of acoustic measurements in various locations so Paul could understand my room.

 

 Then we had many correspondences on the speaker concept. A cabinet design has finally been locked in. Below is a diagram of the design (including a previous one we considered).

 

Paul has also experimented with a number of different drivers/woofers/waveguides, and settled on a set he is happy with.

 

The DSP Paul is using (which is built into a plate Amp) is extremely powerful. It is an FIR device, and appears to be on the level of a DEQX in terms of processing ability. I’m extremely excited about this. It will have plenty of processing available to allow Paul to build suitable crossovers and provide a flat frequency response, and then for me to tailor a custom response curve for my room.

 

All things being equal, Paul should be ready to demo a prototype to me in a couple of weeks.

 

 

Will provide more details as we progress.

That's quite the system you already have , especially the bass department. So are you looking for more mid bass slam?

 

PS  I love the new design

Edited March 10, 20188 yr by Tony ray

More custom shape the response (including bumping the midbass to resolve the suckout in my room). 

 

The Seatons natively have really good midbass (I've listened to them in other parts of my house). But my room has a large affect. 

 

I think it's due to the heavy soundproofing of my room (room within room design/construction). Sound proofing has worked quite well. But bass and midbass has been a nightmare. It's part of the reason I have so many subs, to help tame the bass issues in my room. 

Given how good your room currently sounds these will need to be very good. Best bass I have ever heard.

 

I have Paul’s Red Spade AV8 speakers as my current fronts and love them. Much better than my previous MK 150’s.

 

I am sure they will be great speakers. Plus Paul is a pleasure to do business with -very helpful with sharing his extensive knowledge.

Hey mate. I remember you saying the JTR 212's lacked midbass when you sold them to me a few years ago but I've been enjoying them very nicely and couldn't imagine upgrading! Hope you don't miss them

 

The gunshots in 'Den of Thieves' have some sweet midbass slam in your chest.

Thanks MT; it's always fun meeting a fellow enthusiast. I was actually looking at MK speakers for a new set of matching surrounds and atmos. Forgot that you use to own them - would have hit you up for feedback. I've since decided to go with Triad though.

 

 

Hey Ab, yeah the JTRs are awesome speakers. They have the best top end I've heard. 

 

Having now owned the Seaton Cats, the midbass issue is a problem with my room and not the speakers. I've recently found a setting in the Yamaha receivers that allows you to naturally raise the midbass. If I had found this setting back when I had the JTRs, I don''t think I would have sold them  But I'm glad to see they've gone to someone who is appreciating them. 

 

It would be great to see some pics of the room you ended up building. 

Just an update on the design, progress has been a lot slower than I had anticipated. 

 

I had to crack the whip at Paul a couple of times. It looks like they should be done in the next 1-2 months. 

 

Paul is very meticulous, and nothing short of perfection is good enough for him. For example,  here is a 3D sketch up of the cabinet he developed as part of his design:

 

 

 

As you can see Paul has a strong attention to detail, and this should translate into the quality of the final design.

 

 

What's the dsp plate amp you are using?

28 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

What's the dsp plate amp you are using?

A couple of people have asked me and I've requested info from Paul, but haven't received anything. 

 

All I know is that it's an OEM brand sold directly to manufacturers. 

 

It was something he looked at for an active version of his PSE horn. It's a 3 channel plate amp  - 250/500/500W each.  

 

Originally, I wanted a standalone DSP, separate to amps and speakers. I looked at Minidsp, Xilica, DEQX, Crown and a couple of lesser known brands. But the problem was getting suitable amps for 3 x 3 way fronts in a cost efficient manner. Even many of the DSP I/O seemed more suited to 2 way than 3 way. 

 

I eventually gave up and asked Paul for advice, to which he proposed the current solution.  

 

Cool, post when you find out more please!!? 

Will do mate

I would still recommend standalone DSP over "DSP in a box". Make sure that the DSP plate amp you are buying can be defeated and it can accept analog inputs without any conversion to digital whatsoever, i.e. make sure that your plate amps can be used as "normal" analog plate amps. This will open an upgrade path for you in the future if you wish to go with standalone DSP. 

 

The problem with DSP built into your plate amps is that it can only apply DSP to that particular speaker. Meaning for each speaker, it can flatten out the response and time align each driver, and maybe perform rudimentary room correction.

 

For a HT system you will want overall control - i.e. lip sync, the ability to time align every speaker to your listening position, and so on. For that you need software based DSP and a PC. 

2 hours ago, superaaaa said:

A couple of people have asked me and I've requested info from Paul, but haven't received anything. 

 

All I know is that it's an OEM brand sold directly to manufacturers. 

 

It was something he looked at for an active version of his PSE horn. It's a 3 channel plate amp  - 250/500/500W each.  

 

Originally, I wanted a standalone DSP, separate to amps and speakers. I looked at Minidsp, Xilica, DEQX, Crown and a couple of lesser known brands. But the problem was getting suitable amps for 3 x 3 way fronts in a cost efficient manner. Even many of the DSP I/O seemed more suited to 2 way than 3 way. 

 

I eventually gave up and asked Paul for advice, to which he proposed the current solution.  

 

wonder if it's a SpeakerPower amp similar to what's used in the Cat12s?

SpeakerPower provide plate amps to many of the big ID companies in the US like PSA, Seaton, JTR,DSS and RBH Sound

25 minutes ago, jamiebosco said:

SpeakerPower

Could be, but I didn't think their DSP ran a FIR filter.

On 27/05/2018 at 10:46 AM, jamiebosco said:

wonder if it's a SpeakerPower amp similar to what's used in the Cat12s?

SpeakerPower provide plate amps to many of the big ID companies in the US like PSA, Seaton, JTR,DSS and RBH Sound

No I'm quite certain they're not SpeakerPower amps.

After some pestering, I got Paul to send me some pics of build in progress. Cabs in construction.

 

The woofer cab baffle is 3 layers thick! Not looking forward to moving this thing around.... 

 

What may I ask will become of the Seatons?
Surrounds?

56 minutes ago, muriwai said:

What may I ask will become of the Seatons?
Surrounds?

They'll go up for sale, and someone else will have the pleasure of enjoying them as much as I have. With new Denon 8500 receiver I bought with Audessey app, the CATs are sounding incredible. If I had got the Denon last year, I likely wouldnt have gone down this custom speaker route...

 

Oh well, this has always been a hobby for me. Nothing like a new toy to play with ?

 

Probably list the CATs for sale early next month.

 

I'll eventually sell the surrounds as well. Im expanding to 9.2.4 from my current 7.2.4 setup, and unfortunately, you cant buy the Reaction Audio speakers anymore. I want to keep the wides and surrounds matched.

 

 

3 of them?finish?

Yeah 3 for the LCR.

 

Should be a photo in my room thread:

 

Finish is black oak

Build is progressing well. New photo of the cabs with 3rd coat of paint

 

 

Also some feedback from Paul on the cabs:

 

"There is a lot of redundant strength in these cabs. The woofer boxes would quite likely support the weight of a car. Not that I would try it!

 

Cabs are looking nice now, the sheen and texture is bit like some car dashes. When you knock on them, they are a bit more like rock. It's almost like they are carved out of rock."

 

And feedback on Paul on the speakers sensitivity:

 

"Some time soon I'll put together some specs for you. The sensitivity will be a bit of an eye opener, because it's unusually high for a direct radiator.

 

Voltage sensivity

Treble: 109 dB

Mids: 103 dB

Woofers: 104 dB

 

Most conventional speakers that people are using for home theatre are about 84 dB if rated by the same standard."

 

"Just to give you a point of reference, based on what I know of the Cats, if I were building a speaker using the parts I think they are using, an equivalent rating for the Cats would be:

 

T: 104 dB

M: 94 dB

W: 94 dB

 

Why the difference? The compression driver has better loading than a coaxial woofer cone can provide. We're using two mids which are designed for 3 way systems, therefore higher sensitivity in the midrange. It's the same with the woofers - we get a lot more sensitivity by giving up bass extension. A strong motor with low moving mass gets us the max possible sensitivity. The power handling is extreme also and the design makes driver excursion a non issue. All this means we have extreme dynamic range - more than any HT room actually needs."

 

 

 

 

 

All cabs finished: