JVC DLA- X7900 vs Sony VPL-VW360ES vs Epson EH-LS10000

[betty boop]

20 minutes ago, Tasso said:

For the Op's sake we should point out that your Sony 760ES is a $24k state of the art laser projector which is on a whole other level to the PJ's he is looking to buy.   Contrast for Sony 760ES is streets ahead of the Sony VPL-VW360ES .

 

The 760 I believe also has the full bandwidth 18gb/s chip set, also covers full colour gamut like the jvc s but also does that come at quite a price premium to the jvc s.

[wooferocau]

One thing i think we ALL should remember here is that "ALL" the projectors mentioned here deliver "Stunning" images   ..BUT there are definitely differences between them all ...it comes down to personal preferences and cost.

 

Most important factor to remember..... is to ENJOY what your viewing , how we get there sometimes isn't important....

 

 

[Mobe1969]

BTW, generation wise, if I can get a new 7500 would that be a safer bet than a 7900?

 

I thought I'd located a new 9500 yesterday for $7500, but turns out it was the 9900. Tempting price though.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Mobe1969

[Javs]

2 hours ago, Mobe1969 said:

BTW, generation wise, if I can get a new 7500 would that be a safer bet than a 7900?

 

I thought I'd located a new 9500 yesterday for $7500, but turns out it was the 9900. Tempting price though.

Either of those two, the 7500 or the 7900 would be fine, there is nothing inherently wrong with this generation, its just that QC seems to have taken a nose dive, that is not to say that others have not had good samples, my only point all along was, you buy the 9900 and you expect the best, and you don't get it, then what? Then its a damn headache to resolve, trust me I know, I am still trying to resolve it 3 months later. If you buy a 7 series, it is what it is, from what I can tell, the crapshoot is the same as the 9900. A 7500 is not going to inherently be better than a 7900.

 

That said, there is less bugs feature wise on the 7900, so, I would try and find one of those at a good price if the 7500 cant be had for a most excellent price (but they should be sold out everywhere).

 

No matter which of these models you buy, if you get it out of the box and convergence is horrible, you have a bad lens etc... send it back! No matter which model you get. So, that aspect shouldn't play too heavily into your decision, all I think is, the 9900 is not up to scratch in terms of QC from what I have seen globally. If that is not a real thing anymore, then the 7900 is a far better economical decision.

 

Like I said, the 7900 is the best projector under $10,000.

[TP1]

BTW, generation wise, if I can get a new 7500 would that be a safer bet than a 7900?

 

I thought I'd located a new 9500 yesterday for $7500, but turns out it was the 9900. Tempting price though.

 

Jump on it for the 9900 . It will have better resale value than 9500 and history will judge it to be a worthy successor , even though it is an evolutionary one. You will definitely appreciate the upgrades ( such as low latency mode). Any more deliberating won't get you a better projector for the price

[Mobe1969]

4 hours ago, Tasso said:

 

Jump on it for the 9900 . It will have better resale value than 9500 and history will judge it to be a worthy successor , even though it is an evolutionary one. You will definitely appreciate the upgrades ( such as low latency mode). Any more deliberating won't get you a better projector for the price

Thanks, good thoughts. So $7500 a great deal I take it.

[betty boop]

2 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said:

Thanks, good thoughts. So $7500 a great deal I take it.

its a stonking bargain ! I dont know how they are dong it ! 

[ward0112]

Knew I should have stopped following this thread. 

 

I ordered my 7900 for $6,800. Would have been tempted for a 9900 for another $700

Edited February 10, 2018 by ward0112

[ward0112]

Thanks for all the assistance in getting the Visual aspect of my HT sorted

 

Not sure if your as good on the Audio side, but I have opened the following thread 

 

and would love your advice too

 

 

[DoggieHowser]

On 10/02/2018 at 10:29 AM, Tasso said:

For the Op's sake we should point out that your Sony 760ES is a $24k state of the art laser projector which is on a whole other level to the PJ's he is looking to buy.   Contrast for Sony 760ES is streets ahead of the Sony VPL-VW360ES .

 

Actually

 

No on both counts.

 

The lens AND the panels are identical on both the 760ES and the 360ES (and even the 260ES).

 

In fact the 360ES lens actually has a working dynamic iris that the 760ES does not.

 

Some reviewers have found improvements of about 50-60% in dynamic contrast with the 360ES over the 760ES..

 

 

[TP1]

Actually
 
No on both counts.
 
The lens AND the panels are identical on both the 760ES and the 360ES (and even the 260ES).
 
In fact the 360ES lens actually has a working dynamic iris that the 760ES does not.
 
Some reviewers have found improvements of about 50-60% in dynamic contrast with the 360ES over the 760ES..
 
 

The 760ES uses a laser modulation system that is superior to a dynamic Iris. Of course OLED individual pixel mapping gives the best results but a dynamic Iris is rather crude by comparison to a modulated laser light source. All the independent reviews I have seen have unequivocally stated 760ES has superior contrast to the lesser models, not to mention the specs.

Coming from a high quality pre-4k DLP projector, I have noticed that with newer projectors, "apparent" contrast and black levels are being sacrificed at the alter of high light output. It doesn't matter how good the contrast numbers seem to be, by blasting so much light on to the screen , black levels can look a bit washed out, particularly on SDR material.

[Mobe1969]

1 minute ago, Tasso said:

 

The 760ES uses a laser modulation system that is superior to a dynamic Iris. Of course OLED individual pixel mapping gives the best results but a dynamic Iris is rather crude by comparison to a modulated laser light source. All the independent reviews I have seen have unequivocally stated 760ES has superior contrast to the lesser models, not to mention the specs.

Coming from a high quality pre-4k DLP projector, I have noticed that with newer projectors, "apparent" contrast and black levels are being sacrificed at the alter of high light output. It doesn't matter how good the contrast numbers seem to be, by blasting so much light on to the screen , black levels can look a bit washed out, particularly on SDR material.
 

 

Not from what I've read on AVSForum. I believe how it has been described is it lacks manual iris control and only limits light output, so for lower light output you have much worse contrast. Ideally you should be able to run laser at full lamp all the time, and wind the iris back giving better contrast.

Ironically, it does actually have an electronic iris, probably same as the 360, just not enabled in firmware. They have posted video of it closing and opening momentarily during machine startup. They have asked Sony to enable the manual iris control but they won't. I believe the extremely expensive JVC Z1 does have this manual iris control for this reason.

[Javs]

19 minutes ago, Tasso said:

The 760ES uses a laser modulation system that is superior to a dynamic Iris. Of course OLED individual pixel mapping gives the best results but a dynamic Iris is rather crude by comparison to a modulated laser light source. All the independent reviews I have seen have unequivocally stated 760ES has superior contrast to the lesser models, not to mention the specs.

Coming from a high quality pre-4k DLP projector, I have noticed that with newer projectors, "apparent" contrast and black levels are being sacrificed at the alter of high light output. It doesn't matter how good the contrast numbers seem to be, by blasting so much light on to the screen , black levels can look a bit washed out, particularly on SDR material.

 

It has to be working properly to be superior, which it is not, although Sony don't seem to agree that it needs any additional attention. Right now, it only does something on a FULL black screen, if you have a single pixel on screen, it jumps out of black and has horrible contrast similar to that which would be measured at wide open iris on the other Sony models. The 360Es at that point though would still have its iris mostly closed and the measured contrast would be considerably higher than the 760 at that point.

 

You also cannot set light output for say, 16fl with a manual iris, or even the laser control and get higher contrast as you reduce the light output, it stays constant, whereas the lamp based Sony's will actually increase contrast as you stop down the iris to reduce light output. Even worse, when you use the laser to limit light output, the 760 seems to be actually reducing contrast, not increasing, hell, not even staying steady.

[TP1]

Not from what I've read on AVSForum. I believe how it has been described is it lacks manual iris control and only limits light output, so for lower light output you have much worse contrast. Ideally you should be able to run laser at full lamp all the time, and wind the iris back giving better contrast.

Ironically, it does actually have an electronic iris, probably same as the 360, just not enabled in firmware. They have posted video of it closing and opening momentarily during machine startup. They have asked Sony to enable the manual iris control but they won't. I believe the extremely expensive JVC Z1 does have this manual iris control for this reason.

 

Be careful of forums in particular the USA where there are so many vested interests. "limiting light output" is a misrepresentation that someone would say to denigrate a sophisticated laser modulation system. Globe based projectors would use it too if they could , but cannot through the slow reaction time of the lamps. Hence the IRIS system which is the only option available to them, not the best overall solution. The advantage of a manual iris in this situation is the ability to limit light output for material that doesn't demand such high light levels eg SDR

 

Specs and theory can be deceiving. Take what is good contrast and increase light output across the whole range and black levels look more grey than they did before. This is the issue that the 760ES seems to have. The Z1 with its iris system on top of laser modulation seems to have all bases covered . But one major reason for all this light is HDR. Stack a 76OES against a 360 using HDR and there will be no argument as to which has the better contrast

[DoggieHowser]

Thankfully I don’t just watch movies with just star screens

The Sony does look amazing with everything else. And surprisingly good on NetFlix Punisher Dolby Vision (which is dark) and The Grand Tour which is HDR and 4K - provided my old ADSL isn’t misbehaving. It’s just on the threshold of the limits of ADSL

[Javs]

2 hours ago, Tasso said:

 

Be careful of forums in particular the USA where there are so many vested interests. "limiting light output" is a misrepresentation that someone would say to denigrate a sophisticated laser modulation system. Globe based projectors would use it too if they could , but cannot through the slow reaction time of the lamps. Hence the IRIS system which is the only option available to them, not the best overall solution. The advantage of a manual iris in this situation is the ability to limit light output for material that doesn't demand such high light levels eg SDR

 

Specs and theory can be deceiving. Take what is good contrast and increase light output across the whole range and black levels look more grey than they did before. This is the issue that the 760ES seems to have. The Z1 with its iris system on top of laser modulation seems to have all bases covered . But one major reason for all this light is HDR. Stack a 76OES against a 360 using HDR and there will be no argument as to which has the better contrast

Here are some actual numbers.

 

We know it does full black OFF so that is true infinity techinically, but thats a useless metric, but what about if there is one pixel on screen?

 

NATIVE CONTRAST (DYNAMIC DIMMING OFF) = 15,605:1

DYNAMIC CONTRAST | DYNAMIC DIMMING LIMITED = 18,935:1

DYNAMIC CONTRAST | DYNAMIC DIMMING FULL = 22,165:1

" In all instances black level was measured using 0 IRE with a single white pixel in top corner of image so as to prevent any shutting off of the light source due to detecting full field 0 IRE. "

 

And this is where DI's take command, and even the JVC's dimming, APL levels.

 

1% = 7200:1 for Dynamic Off and Limited, 7100:1 for Full
2% = 5000:1 for Off, 5100:1 for Limited and Full
5% = 2800:1 ALL MODES
10% = 1700:1 ALL MODES
20% = 840:1 ALL MODES

 

Laser modulation should be working hard at 1 and 2% not to mention the above instances where there is only one pixel on screen, but its not doing much at all.

 

[TP1]

5 hours ago, Javs said:

Here are some actual numbers.

 

We know it does full black OFF so that is true infinity techinically, but thats a useless metric, but what about if there is one pixel on screen?

 

NATIVE CONTRAST (DYNAMIC DIMMING OFF) = 15,605:1

DYNAMIC CONTRAST | DYNAMIC DIMMING LIMITED = 18,935:1

DYNAMIC CONTRAST | DYNAMIC DIMMING FULL = 22,165:1

 

Playing the numbers game isn't conclusive in isolation because the 760ES puts out far more light than other similarly specced projectors,  (although personally I do not buy on specs).  On  another thread,  someone even jumped in and said ON/OFF contrast ratios were worthwhile while  a couple of reviewers think Ansi is the best measure.   The numbers game has got out of hand with projectors I think  and no-one seems to tell the truth about their product.  The real test is how it looks on HDR and SDR  and how the image compares  to other Pj's by actually looking at  images.    I think that is where the laser output modulation will become more apparent, although I agree a manual iris system would have been nice - particularly for say SDR material.  

[Javs]

Playing the numbers game isn't conclusive in isolation because the 760ES puts out far more light than other similarly specced projectors,  (although personally I do not buy on specs).  On  another thread,  someone even jumped in and said ON/OFF contrast ratios were worthwhile while  a couple of reviewers think Ansi is the best measure.   The numbers game has got out of hand with projectors I think  and no-one seems to tell the truth about their product.  The real test is how it looks on HDR and SDR  and how the image compares  to other Pj's by actually looking at  images.    I think that is where the laser output modulation will become more apparent, although I agree a manual iris system would have been nice - particularly for say SDR material.  

The 760 calibrated is about 2-3fl brighter than a JVC 9900.

It's not as bright as you think.

It does not put out far more light. Let's be real.

Both are around 1700-1800 lumens calibrated.

[TP1]

The 760 calibrated is about 2-3fl brighter than a JVC 9900.

It's not as bright as you think.

It does not put out far more light. Let's be real.

Both are around 1700-1800 lumens calibrated.

I'm going by what has been reported around the world by independent reviewers , not to mention a local owner. I have now bought JVC and am not a Sony fanboi but must give credit where it is due .
In a few years from now we will all have laser projectors and reminisce about the idiosyncrasies of the light globes in our current projectors .

[Mobe1969]

Regards the manual Iris control, would this contrast improvement work on the 360 or JVC 9900 as well? Eg I have a setup where I'd normally run it on low lamp mode Iris dynamic to fully opened. If I instead ran it on high lamp with Iris limited to achieve the same max light output, would it improve contrast.

[TP1]

Regards the manual Iris control, would this contrast improvement work on the 360 or JVC 9900 as well? Eg I have a setup where I'd normally run it on low lamp mode Iris dynamic to fully opened. If I instead ran it on high lamp with Iris limited to achieve the same max light output, would it improve contrast.

Good question. Lower light output through either low lamp mode or manual iris will improve black levels. But wouldn't you be better off experimenting with auto iris modes ( with and without low lamp mode) which will deliver better overall dynamic contrast?

[Mobe1969]

1 minute ago, Tasso said:

 

 

Good question. Lower light output through either low lamp mode or manual iris will improve black levels. But wouldn't you be better off experimenting with auto iris modes ( with and without low lamp mode) which will deliver better overall dynamic contrast?

 

 

As far as I'm aware you can combine dynamic iris with manual. So you still have it dynamic, but set the max limit. I guess you would get less fine granularity of control though. Eg if with full iris, there were 256 steps of dynamic aperture, if you closed it to half, you would just get 128 steps.

 

I could be wrong, but I do recall asking this on the AVSForum and was told yes it was

[Quark]

8 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said:

As far as I'm aware you can combine dynamic iris with manual. So you still have it dynamic, but set the max limit. I guess you would get less fine granularity of control though. Eg if with full iris, there were 256 steps of dynamic aperture, if you closed it to half, you would just get 128 steps.

 

I could be wrong, but I do recall asking this on the AVSForum and was told yes it was

If it's like recent JVC series, the top two models have dual irises, so you can set one manually and have the other on dynamic.

[Mobe1969]

1 hour ago, Quark said:

If it's like recent JVC series, the top two models have dual irises, so you can set one manually and have the other on dynamic.

That is definitely another plus for JVC

 

What about the Sony units? Anyone know?

 

EDIT: From reading the manual, the Sony 360/385es does seem to support dual iris control.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Mobe1969

[Javs]

7 hours ago, Mobe1969 said:

Regards the manual Iris control, would this contrast improvement work on the 360 or JVC 9900 as well? Eg I have a setup where I'd normally run it on low lamp mode Iris dynamic to fully opened. If I instead ran it on high lamp with Iris limited to achieve the same max light output, would it improve contrast.

Yes, closing down the iris is how the JVC 9900 can natively go from 40k to 160k:1 and this is even before you turn on the DI, when you do, it will go up to nearly 400,000:1

 

The Sony 360 will do more like 16k-19k:1, and then with the DI to maybe 60-70k:1 (they have a MUCH lower dynamic multiplier real world than JVC) depending on iris setting, much less.

 

The JVC 7/9 series has a 2nd iris which you cant see well inside the light path, when you close down the iris both of these work together to drastically increase the contrast ratio as the light output lowers.

 

The common scenario for a 7 or 9 series at the throw I know you are going to put it, you would likely be watching SDR in low lamp -8 or -10 on the iris to get 16fl peak white, that will get you between 60 and 80k:1 most likely. The Sony in the same spot would be around 17k:1 and the Sony 760 in the same spot due to the fact you would need to reduce the laser power would likely only be around 15k:1. The Sony actually loses contrast when you turn down the laser output.