betty boop Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 20 minutes ago, jdh500 said: One of the drivers is to go from a 5.2.4 to 5.2.6 setup definitely makes sense JD as 7.1.4 is limitation where at and if have the speakers for 7.1.6 then why not. the arrangement you have either the marantz or anthem will cope with. and lets face it at this level of processor these are all pretty good am sure. i would just wait up too.. .see what turns out once past initial release gremlins and also past uncertainty of promised update... 1 hour ago, jdh500 said: Will most likely wait until March to June to see what the state of play is with 8k etc. definitely wait up to see what happens there, there are much uncertainties, certainly anything hdmi 2.1 has been a mess so far ! good luck in your choices and decisions, indeed a lot of this is what comfortable with and no wrong or right answer really for much these days 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 45 minutes ago, jdh500 said: simple answer would be to upgrade to an AV-8805 or AVM-70 after the 8k hdmi board is standard or the MRX-1040 plus Elektra HD 2ch reference that I already own. I am rather cheap JDH but I got a shock to see online prices for a 8500 at $7900[ wasnt that awhile ago - plenty of bargaining room I imagine] and the avm70 at 5.5k . What made me notice the 70 was the configurability of making any number of " virtual inputs " and the 4 ARC profile curves . That speaks to the dsp horsepower on tap here The anthem has improvements based on customer feedback so dts play fi has gone and phase correction exists with ARC genesis With any of these pre pros though its conditional on the features ; some may want the video processing of the 8805 or the analogue video inputs or isf settings . I am still reeling from the price of the new denon avc a110 around 11k ; not that I care but it doesnt have 2ch balanced xlr in either -what does that say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 50 minutes ago, cwt said: I am rather cheap JDH but I got a shock to see online prices for a 8500 at $7900[ wasnt that awhile ago - plenty of bargaining room I imagine] and the avm70 at 5.5k definitely things gone up for marantz over the years... but to be fair the avm 70 is not the flagship pre pro for anthem ... so at $5.5k need to be comparing it to the marantz 7706 that has 1st iteration of hdmi 2.1 so no additional cost for update and avm70 cost to update is additional. the avm90 which is anthem flagship is $11k so well over the marantz flagship 8805 price the avm90 though while not had the update the price apparently has the hdmi 2.1 update built in...the 8805 will need to factor in another price hike for 2.1 if folks taking that up.... i guess it does give that choice ...like the avm70 50 minutes ago, cwt said: With any of these pre pros though its conditional on the features ; some may want the video processing of the 8805 or the analogue video inputs or isf settings . I am still reeling from the price of the new denon avc a110 around 11k ; not that I care but it doesnt have 2ch balanced xlr in either -what does that say the 8805 has audio processing advantage, see krobar's comparison above. will be important to some... but its all about perspective...soemthings will be more important to some than others why it is good we have choice between the brands. am not really sure what else is there for consideration ? yamaha ? arcam seems a bug fest ! not sure what nad is doing .. onkyo ? pioneer ? more competition is needed if pricing needs to brought back to earth.. especially where you have brands like trinov and lyngdorf and storm and such with their lala land pricing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, betty boop said: definitely things gone up for marantz over the years... but to be fair the avm 70 is not the flagship pre pro for anthem ... so at $5.5k need to be comparing it to the 7706 that has 1st iteration of hdmi 2.1 so no additional cost for update and avm70 cost to update is additional. the avm90 which is anthem flagship is $11k so well over the marantz flagship 8805 price the avm90 though while not had the update the price apparently has the hdmi 2.1 update built in...the 8805 will need to factor in another price hike for 2.1 if folks taking that up.... i guess it does give that choice ...like the avm70 Thats fair Al ; to be specific the avm90 would have to be totally balanced from input to output with double the circuitry like your old avca1hd was to justify the price ; and I am expecting single ended converted to balanced [like the 70] like on so many brands Certainly worth waiting for all the things promised with all the bugs on so many brands ; we suddenly have become beta testers except for certain brands [ another pertinent factor you probably considered with your 8802 upgrade imho] and anthem has not done itself favours releasing without ARC when it should be a given at this price point ; very slow with the manual too.. Whats the chances in a few months there will be a trade in deal on a few of these brands - theres quite a few based on that Arcam design and now with good timing Anthem come with channel upgrades..these models will have a looong development time like the 11 series ; I dont care about hdmi 2.1 when it already has E-ARC and they may hit you with 1k plus for it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sacks Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 On 06/02/2021 at 10:06 PM, Snoopy8 said: I was wrong @betty boop, AVM 90 at $11K is double AVM 70, $5.5K ! The only way to justify the cost of the AVM 90 is that it performs as good as the AVM 70 + a stereo preamp like the STR Preamp $5.5K (coincidence it adds up to same total cost ?) for stereo music. It gets more interesting when comparing the AVM 90 with multi channels power amps vs AVM 70 + Str Integrated $8K with multi channels power amps. I suspect the AVM 90 will be held back by the multi channels power amps and the AVM 90 will need to be paired with a stereo power amp to compete when playing stereo music. Looking to see whether any future reviews will be covering the above questions... I think you need to cool your jets until the AVM 90 has been released and I've had some time to play with it. I see the release date has been pushed back until March/April, which probably means we won't see it here until June at the earliest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 we do have under hood shots of the AVM70 as well from orion on WP... https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/9jwvmr43?p=5#r83 so now can see under hood of avm 70 vs avm 90 from prior shots, AVM90 https://imgbb.com/ZmHXrVP AVM70 https://ibb.co/CsGyz8C looking at the insides of both, am not sure can say what the extra $5.5k has brought on the AVM 90 ? over the AVM70 that costs half the price ? both look identical under hood. though appreciate there is different dac, greater number of sub capability and allowance for hdmi board upgrade built in the price of the avm90 .... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdh500 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 (edited) Two extremes, the AVM70 looks overall good value while the AVM90 way overpriced for the differences. whats with the Red circuit boards, why not use green or blue like everyone else? I assume with the future hdmi upgrade the entire top hdmi board gets swapped out? JDH Edited February 8, 2021 by jdh500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 48 minutes ago, jdh500 said: Two extremes, the AVM70 looks overall good value while the AVM90 way overpriced for the differences. seems like buy a lot of empty space in both ! reminds me more of the 7706 which is similar to anthems about 50% air Definitely seem to get more with the marantz av8805 ! vs the 7706 ! underhood of av8805 av8805 with power section with decent caps, good quality Elna caps and such on 8805 as well, dont know what caps on the 7706 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 34 minutes ago, jdh500 said: whats with the Red circuit boards, why not use green or blue like everyone else? I assume with the future hdmi upgrade the entire top hdmi board gets swapped out? Red's just their thing, been that ways. cambridge use blue, ive seen black on oppo and such. yes imagine the top hdmi board will just get swapped.... one good thing with the AVM90 is peace of mind buying knowing the price includes the board swap for those wanting hdmi 2.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordwooof Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I just ordered the MRX1140 and was concerned about the power config per channel also. Hope it ends up OK. Pairing it with the MCA325 amp to power the LCR. Really looking forward to that component. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdh500 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 29 minutes ago, lordwooof said: I just ordered the MRX1140 Any discount offered on the RRP ? JDH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordwooof Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 9 minutes ago, jdh500 said: Any discount offered on the RRP ? JDH There was on the MRX740 that I ordered first. Rang up and changed my order to the 1140 but haven't got the updated paperwork yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 31 minutes ago, lordwooof said: I just ordered the MRX1140 and was concerned about the power config per channel also. Hope it ends up OK. Pairing it with the MCA325 amp to power the LCR. Really looking forward to that component. The MCA325 will make all the difference as the new line has more flexibility as too what drives what and theres fewer channels to drive ; unlike the Arcams you can reassign your internal amps away from the bed channels ; thats why the Arcams give the class G to the dear one as the bed channels are more important and the lower tier gets a/b Of course the 1st job is to track down an enhanced by IMAX disc and see if its any different from the regular variety Congrats on the upgrade . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franin Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Been checking the AVS forums regarding the AVM 70 looks like it’s quite buggy atm. I guess no rush for people who want to by them wait till they iron out the bugs first. Looks quite nice though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sacks Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 7 hours ago, betty boop said: seems like buy a lot of empty space in both ! reminds me more of the 7706 which is similar to anthems about 50% air Definitely seem to get more with the marantz av8805 ! vs the 7706 ! underhood of av8805 av8805 with power section with decent caps, good quality Elna caps and such on 8805 as well, dont know what caps on the 7706 You can clear out a lot of space when you remove all those redundant video boards and other associated crap that Marantz insist on putting on in 8805 @betty boop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 8 hours ago, Happy Sacks said: You can clear out a lot of space when you remove all those redundant video boards and other associated crap that Marantz insist on putting on in 8805 @betty boop. hey happy, dont worry this is not a marantz vs anthem thing just exploring marantz 7706 vs av8805 as really was expecting something similar avm70 to 90 re the marantz the whole front section of the marantz av8805 is analog stages and power supplies... all audio.. the rear is HDMI, DAC and processing..... all very necessary I was comparing shots of the marantz 7706 which is more like the anthem thats 50% air and expecting the avm90 to fill the rest with good audio stuff....like the av8805 does over the av7706... but looks like avm90 is just same as avm70. am not seeing any great difference actually ...and why was wondering where the extra $5.5k for the avm90 over the avm70 goes .... Its something i very much was wondering when considering it and anthem dont really say much ...apart from uprated circuits ...extra sub and uprated dac (and paying for the hdmi board when comes)... but really it all looks much of much ness between them. Orions underhood shots have been quite useful to illustrate this 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 sorry to say but anthem is coping it left right and centre right now. on top of what seem to be quite a few bugs with the new units. seems Amirm of ASR has also now produced a review of the AVM60 which is not doing it any favours https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/anthem-avm60-review-av-processor.20155/ I wonder if hs is measuring the wrong things or the wrong way again as it turned out with a denon unit sound united picked up on and had to tell him how to properly measure and what to measure ... to end up with a pretty decent result. brought into question all his previous reviews for measurements in my mind as he hasn't gone back and fixed all of those ! wonder if this is the same .... Anthem seem to be on the case anyways as it stands the AVM60 measures worse than the MRX1120 it is based on. also XLR seem to measure worse than RCA it seems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, betty boop said: sorry to say but anthem is coping it left right and centre right now. on top of what seem to be quite a few bugs with the new units. seems Amirm of ASR has produced a review of the AVM60 which is not doing it any favours https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/anthem-avm60-review-av-processor.20155/ I wonder if hs is measuring the wrong things or the wrong way again as it turned out with a denon unit sound united picked up on and had to tell him how to properly measure and what to measure ... to end up with a pretty decent result. brought into question all his previous reviews for measurements in my mind as he hasn't gone back and fixed all of those ! wonder if this is the same .... Anthem seem to be on the case anyways as it stands the AVM60 measures worse than the MRX1120 it is based on. also XLR seem to measure worse than RCA it seems... Thats the achilles heel Al ; he cant go back and fix those he needs to redo as he hasnt got the component any more -they are all loaners Hey its a good excuse to renew the whole line eh This says a lot ; https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/anthem-avm60-review-av-processor.20155/post-666173 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:) Go Away (: Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 3 hours ago, betty boop said: AVM60 measures worse than the MRX1120 it is based on. also XLR seem to measure worse than RCA it seems That line in it self indicates, that something isn't right in testing method or the unit that was tested by Amirm, as has been in few cases done by Amirm, sort of leads to question his credibility. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 33 minutes ago, :) Go Away (: said: That line in it self indicates, that something isn't right in testing method or the unit that was tested by Amirm, as has been in few cases done by Amirm, sort of leads to question his credibility. Thats where it gets complicated a bit ; there are a number of ways balanced[xlr outputs] can be derived from single ended circuitry - the cheap way with a couple of ic's or a well designed transformer conversion say] . The avr has the advantage of not having to do this conversion being unbalanced ; so less to do The wise thing to do is wait to see what comes from Amirs confab with Anthem ; just like his talks with Emotiva [history repeating ?? ] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Slack Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, cwt said: there are a number of ways balanced[xlr outputs] can be derived from single ended circuitry - the cheap way with a couple of ic's or a well designed transformer conversion say] . Hello Colin, Another cheap way, which is better than either of the two ways you mentioned including the expensive way, is to simply use a balanced DAC circuit for the processor outputs. cheers Grant Edited February 9, 2021 by Grant Slack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Slack Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 19 hours ago, betty boop said: I wonder if hs is measuring the wrong things or the wrong way again as it turned out with a denon unit sound united picked up on and had to tell him how to properly measure and what to measure ... Hello, which unit was that for? That is not the way I recall the story for the 6700 H model, which actually turned out to have a fault in the early models which his first test revealed, and they actually sent him a fixed model which he got better scores for. Cheers Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 4700 and thank goodness in that case did an updated review... here's a review of the AVM 60 from home theatre hifi and with quite a bit of measurements and seems to come to very different conclusions on the unit vs ASR... in this case giving it the best off for 2017 and concluding "If you are looking for a new 11.2 channel processor, put the Anthem AVM 60 on your short list. The AVM 60 is highly recommended." https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/anthem-avm-60-preamplifier-processor-review/ and ASR concludes ? "Conclusions Based on above measurements, we have one broken AV Processor. Performance across the board struggles to clear 15 bits yet we have this marketing information from the company: We don't have anything like that here. Assuming that "A/D" is meant to be "D/A," the 106 dB must be some DAC chip spec, not actual system. Needless to say, I can't recommend the Anthem AVP60 Processor. " just goes to show when it comes to reviews.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Slack Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Hello BB, I do understand his basic sticking point though, which is that he sees no good technical reason why the multi thousand dollar processor should measure worse than a nine dollar Apple DAC in a USB-C adapter dongle the size of a pencil tip. Point taken, IMHO. Your linked HTHF review measured 94 dB (0.001881%) THD+N at 2V output and Amir measured 91 dB at 4V output. It sometimes happens that the distortion goes up with these units as the voltage is lifted above 2 V on the outputs, even the balanced outputs. (example.) So I don’t see the two reviews as being inconsistent. Also Anthem spec the device as 95 dB at 2V output, so I don’t see an issue with Amir’s measurement per se. (The Apple dongle is 99 dB, BTW.) But, since I can be quick to point out in this forum instances where perceived differences are not consistent with the human thresholds of hearing, then I should also say that he is discriminating between performance levels that are also well below the human threshold of hearing. In effect, his ‘broken’ rating is purely from a geek perspective on the engineering not being what it could be, as clearly stated in your quote above, “based on above measurements”. To the listener, measurement differences at those levels should not be the cause of any audible differences. cheers Grant 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Grant Slack said: But, since I can be quick to point out in this forum instances where perceived differences are not consistent with the human thresholds of hearing, then I should also say that he is discriminating between performance levels that are also well below the human threshold of hearing. In effect, his ‘broken’ rating is purely from a geek perspective on the engineering not being what it could be, as clearly stated in your quote above, “based on above measurements”. To the listener, measurement differences at those levels should not be the cause of any audible differences. I totally agree, and have to be seen from his perspective... but it doesnt explain the such disparate conclusions... it doesnt also match with end user experience. I for one appreciate his measurements... and objective testing is more than welcome as with other perspectives... but i just cant believe how many devices he has whole sale dismissed and panned off as not recommended. I do wish he coupled his measurements with at least some listening(this is very rare in his reviews) and as you say then at kind of levels he is talking to the listener the measurement differences might just not even to the point of being audible ! bear in mind I am not dismissing his reviews...just believe they need to be taken with huge mountains of salt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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