How to make a world class source out of the Sonos.

[Orpheus]

Here's where I'm up to with the sonos, which I would operate with my DCS Purcell and Elgar.

The two options are;

Sorry, just gave it that title to make it more appealing:D. It is, in fact, a question, and the answer may be "You can't make it world class, but you can make it better, and option one or two is the one to go for."

1.) The Rick Cullen mods.

The Sonos modified to take an external word clock, with the PaceCar in mind (Empirical Audio), though I think it could be any word clock.

Rick Cullen says that his mods are better than an external word clock, because he replaces the CODEC. I find this hard to assess, because I have no idea what function the CODEC performs, and how important that is.

2.) Empirical Audio say that the Pace Car is the best option, because it is an excellent reducer of jitter.

So, what difference does the CODEC make, and does anyone have any thoughts.

[Fangzie]

This would be the piece of hardware (possibly software?) the decodes the raw digital information (basically, it depackages mp3's, wav's, flac's etc) and spits it out via PCM into a DAC (onboard or off-board...). At least, this is what I understand it is. This could be wrong though.

And I imagine this would give a better result than simply trying to reduce jitter, given the effect of jitter is questionable (within certain tolerances, of course).

[Guest]

I thought this was going to be a thread about selling your sonosd and buying a recod player instead:nana

[cheekyboy]

I thought this was going to be a thread about selling your sonosd and buying a recod player instead:nana

Would be my recommendation too Andy.....................!!

Edited March 31, 2010 by cheekyboy

[Guest yamaha_man]

Would it not sound great connected to a quality DAC?

[Orpheus]

Would it not sound great connected to a quality DAC?

Two issues with the Sonos. One is jitter. The other is perhaps a real problem perhaps not; its the quality of the codec. I am trying to work out what that is (something to do with the code sent to the DAC.)

[cheekyboy]

Codec is the sofware program that allows the coding and decoding of the audio signal that is sent to the DAC is what I understand.......................more than that I can't help. Anyway, why not just go get a turntable and be done with it!

Cheers,

Keith

[Guest yamaha_man]

Codec is the sofware program that allows the coding and decoding of the audio signal that is sent to the DAC is what I understand.......................more than that I can't help. Anyway, why not just go get a turntable and be done with it!

Cheers,

Keith

Because a turntable involves labour when wanting to swap albums or artists. I'm from the new school of lazy listeners.

[cheekyboy]

Point taken yamman.................

[Audiobugged]

My understanding is that codecs are usually used in the context of audio formats - flac, wav, ape, wma, mp3, etc... are all different codecs that "code" the audio into a lossless or lossy (mp3) audio format. I can only assume that the context used by Rick when he says codec is not the music format but the hardware (or software) solution used in "decode" the respective format into something that the dac can use (dsd? pcm? bitstream?)

AB

[Orpheus]

Because a turntable involves labour when wanting to swap albums or artists. I'm from the new school of lazy listeners.

AT the risk of taking my own thread off topic, this is not my objection to turntables. My objections are;

1.) Pops and clicks and other surface noise.

2.) Difficulties in coping with high volume.

3.) A related problem, distortion.

4.) Pitch instability.

5.) Dust.

The pitch problem could probably be solved with a turntable significantly better than my Rega Planar 3.

THe other problems may be reduced by excellent equipment, but cannot be eliminated.

[Jake]

Spearmint has the Cullen ZP90, but alas he has not yet furnished us with a review

[Guest yamaha_man]

Would one be better off waiting until the above issues with the sonos are corrected in future models before purchasing? How does the squeezebox compare?

[djb]

'AT the risk of taking my own thread off topic'

my learned friend how far off topic do u want to go!

or are u disguising the fact that like the rest of us u arent sure what u r talking about when on THIS topic?

spent yesterday in the federal court listening to my team costing a fortune!

[Orpheus]

'AT the risk of taking my own thread off topic'

my learned friend how far off topic do u want to go!

or are u disguising the fact that like the rest of us u arent sure what u r talking about when on THIS topic?

spent yesterday in the federal court listening to my team costing a fortune!

And doing a wonderful job with a difficult case I'm sure:).

[Spearmint]

Here is my 2pence worth of opinion

For the money I feel the Sonos is a great lifestyle system. Regardless of costs, the usability and flexibility of it are IMO better than some other systems currently on the market. It amazes me some compare only costs when comparing Sonos to other products, and yet I reckon 90+% of these people have never experienced or used a Sonos.

I’ve yet to come across a streaming solution that can duplicate all of the characteristics of the same track played via a CD player on the same system. This BTW is from the same CD the data was ripped in the first place. Just like CD and Vinyl have their differences so does streaming ripped audio, although IMO it is much closer to the original CD than Vinyl is to CD.

Now let’s analyse the average audiophile, and ask ourselves how much actual time do we sit in front of our system to experience it in all its glory? Let’s face it; many have spent tens of thousands on equipment, and countless hours on tweaking to ensure the system sounds as good as can be had with what they have to work with. But after the initial WOW look and listen to my great system, how much time does one actually get to sit down in the dark and quiet and really enjoy the system considering the amount of dollars and time invested. Having a dual 2ch and HT setup does allow a greater amount of flexibility with regards to the amount of hours one can get to enjoy their system.

Next question, out of all your music collection, do you have difficulty deciding which album/tracks you want to listen to, or is it a matter of playing the same ones many times over mainly due to not really being able to decide on what your mood is therefore what else to play?

So now enters the streamed audio, and yes it is IMO around 95~98% of the quality of listening to the same CD being spun on a reasonable CD player; however the convenience factor of having either your entire CD collection on random play (or sequential) creating playlists for either entertaining or mood changes and if you have multiple zones throughout the home, listening to the same tracks at reasonable levels with no delays, echo’s or any other anomalies, just the music you enjoy without requiring you to make any decisions on what to play and when to play it.

In my case my system runs all weekend streaming music, and if I get the urge to listen to any particular albums, or combination of tracks from various albums, do I crab the CD’s off the rack, no not on your Nelly, I grab the remote for my Sonos, sit back in my chair and bop along to what I want to enjoy without leaving the comfort of my chair.

There has been talk about Jitter levels in this thread, but what does it actually mean in the real world with what we’re listening to? Isn’t his what good DAC’s do, help eliminate the issue of Jitter? In my situation I listen to more music hours over a weekend via streamed audio than I would if I didn’t have it. I rarely use my room or system; sad I know, but it’s a fact of my lifestyle unfortunately.

[Spearmint]

Just wanted to add to this thread since I didn't really know which thread to put it in.

For anyone considering buying the new Sonos controller, you may want to read this thread

Dead Spots on CR200

[2sheds]

Here is my 2pence worth of opinion

For the money I feel the Sonos is a great lifestyle system. Regardless of costs, the usability and flexibility of it are IMO better than some other systems currently on the market. It amazes me some compare only costs when comparing Sonos to other products, and yet I reckon 90+% of these people have never experienced or used a Sonos.

I’ve yet to come across a streaming solution that can duplicate all of the characteristics of the same track played via a CD player on the same system. This BTW is from the same CD the data was ripped in the first place. Just like CD and Vinyl have their differences so does streaming ripped audio, although IMO it is much closer to the original CD than Vinyl is to CD.

Now let’s analyse the average audiophile, and ask ourselves how much actual time do we sit in front of our system to experience it in all its glory? Let’s face it; many have spent tens of thousands on equipment, and countless hours on tweaking to ensure the system sounds as good as can be had with what they have to work with. But after the initial WOW look and listen to my great system, how much time does one actually get to sit down in the dark and quiet and really enjoy the system considering the amount of dollars and time invested. Having a dual 2ch and HT setup does allow a greater amount of flexibility with regards to the amount of hours one can get to enjoy their system.

Next question, out of all your music collection, do you have difficulty deciding which album/tracks you want to listen to, or is it a matter of playing the same ones many times over mainly due to not really being able to decide on what your mood is therefore what else to play?

So now enters the streamed audio, and yes it is IMO around 95~98% of the quality of listening to the same CD being spun on a reasonable CD player; however the convenience factor of having either your entire CD collection on random play (or sequential) creating playlists for either entertaining or mood changes and if you have multiple zones throughout the home, listening to the same tracks at reasonable levels with no delays, echo’s or any other anomalies, just the music you enjoy without requiring you to make any decisions on what to play and when to play it.

In my case my system runs all weekend streaming music, and if I get the urge to listen to any particular albums, or combination of tracks from various albums, do I crab the CD’s off the rack, no not on your Nelly, I grab the remote for my Sonos, sit back in my chair and bop along to what I want to enjoy without leaving the comfort of my chair.

There has been talk about Jitter levels in this thread, but what does it actually mean in the real world with what we’re listening to? Isn’t his what good DAC’s do, help eliminate the issue of Jitter? In my situation I listen to more music hours over a weekend via streamed audio than I would if I didn’t have it. I rarely use my room or system; sad I know, but it’s a fact of my lifestyle unfortunately.

Minty,

Excellent post and a convincing and sobering argument for adding a Sonos system. Now I just need a new DAC...and a new pair of speakers...and a new amp....oh....and the Sonos system. This is gonna be fun, except for the bit where I have to explain all the money I spent to Mrs Sheds.

cheers

2sheds

[Spearmint]

Minty,

Excellent post and a convincing and sobering argument for adding a Sonos system. Now I just need a new DAC...and a new pair of speakers...and a new amp....oh....and the Sonos system. This is gonna be fun, except for the bit where I have to explain all the money I spent to Mrs Sheds.

cheers

2sheds

Thanks TwinSheds

My preference for Sonos is purely based on my requirements; however streamed audio and in-fact video are now IMO making large inroads into the modern lifestyle environment. Lets face it how many homes do you see with the large display and little to no audio insight. I feel the clean uncluttered look is great and with some forethought one can have the audio as well and still keep the clean look. Streaming boxes are usually quite small and unintrusive which make them great to hide in cupboards , etc, and from these you can select any audio, video, and/or image files you have stored on your network, plus online services.

Early reports from owners of the new iPad are wrapped with the speed and response of it using the Sonos app, apparently its more responsive than using either the iTouch/iPhone as the controller which IMO is no slouch. Maybe its the larger screen that is taking their fancy.

[vmhf]

Slightly off topic, has anyone experienced the Olive media server? The current Olive 4HD that is a CD burner with 2TB hard drive as well as a server is interesting.

http://www.olive.us/products/olive4hd/overview.html

I like the fact that this can easliy be slotted into your hifi rack and looks like another component.

[Jake]

Here is my 2pence worth of opinion

For the money I feel the Sonos is a great lifestyle system. Regardless of costs, the usability and flexibility of it are IMO better than some other systems currently on the market. It amazes me some compare only costs when comparing Sonos to other products, and yet I reckon 90+% of these people have never experienced or used a Sonos.

I’ve yet to come across a streaming solution that can duplicate all of the characteristics of the same track played via a CD player on the same system. This BTW is from the same CD the data was ripped in the first place. Just like CD and Vinyl have their differences so does streaming ripped audio, although IMO it is much closer to the original CD than Vinyl is to CD.

Now let’s analyse the average audiophile, and ask ourselves how much actual time do we sit in front of our system to experience it in all its glory? Let’s face it; many have spent tens of thousands on equipment, and countless hours on tweaking to ensure the system sounds as good as can be had with what they have to work with. But after the initial WOW look and listen to my great system, how much time does one actually get to sit down in the dark and quiet and really enjoy the system considering the amount of dollars and time invested. Having a dual 2ch and HT setup does allow a greater amount of flexibility with regards to the amount of hours one can get to enjoy their system.

Next question, out of all your music collection, do you have difficulty deciding which album/tracks you want to listen to, or is it a matter of playing the same ones many times over mainly due to not really being able to decide on what your mood is therefore what else to play?

So now enters the streamed audio, and yes it is IMO around 95~98% of the quality of listening to the same CD being spun on a reasonable CD player; however the convenience factor of having either your entire CD collection on random play (or sequential) creating playlists for either entertaining or mood changes and if you have multiple zones throughout the home, listening to the same tracks at reasonable levels with no delays, echo’s or any other anomalies, just the music you enjoy without requiring you to make any decisions on what to play and when to play it.

In my case my system runs all weekend streaming music, and if I get the urge to listen to any particular albums, or combination of tracks from various albums, do I crab the CD’s off the rack, no not on your Nelly, I grab the remote for my Sonos, sit back in my chair and bop along to what I want to enjoy without leaving the comfort of my chair.

There has been talk about Jitter levels in this thread, but what does it actually mean in the real world with what we’re listening to? Isn’t his what good DAC’s do, help eliminate the issue of Jitter? In my situation I listen to more music hours over a weekend via streamed audio than I would if I didn’t have it. I rarely use my room or system; sad I know, but it’s a fact of my lifestyle unfortunately.

So Minty, is the Cullen mod worth it? Does it sound any better than the standard ZP90?

[Spearmint]

Rick Cullen says that his mods are better than an external word clock, because he replaces the CODEC. I find this hard to assess, because I have no idea what function the CODEC performs, and how important that is.

Orpheus, if you recheck the Cullen site you will notice that they in fact replace "This upgrade entirely replaces the mediocre Cirrius Logic CODAC and the associated high jitter clocks. " I've no idea what the differences are between Codac and Codec.

So Minty, is the Cullen mod worth it? Does it sound any better than the standard ZP90?

Jake, IMO yes it is worthwhile. However I also don't have many issues with wasting money on different gadgets and quick fixes. You should see my latest little venture, but that is for another time. IMO the Cullen modded unit makes the Sonos more enjoyable, more in-tune with the way I enjoy listening to music. As yet I've not done any in-depth comparisons, more of the fact of enjoying the tunes more than ever before. This has also come about by other additions to my line-up of toys, but the modded Sonos ZP just adds that little extra finesse to my system. As you're well aware, many audiophiles have little trouble dropping a small fortune on other parts of their systems, including cables, and yet, have issues with the prices of Sonos compared to other offerings. If you are one that enjoys what Sonos can bring to your lifestyle, then if you have some spare coin you will I'm sure reap the benefits of the upgrade.

BTW just as an aside, for those looking to import Sonos, the Australian distributor does track serial numbers. Due to the fact that the Cullen mod completely makes the ZP virtually another product altogether, I had no issues with importing the unit as a whole, as I figured trying to get it repaired in Australia was going to be difficult let alone worrying about warranty issues.

[djb]

'life style systems'!

the term worries me

Rather it makes me query if I/me/myself should be looking at streaming at all

it worries me as a term because 'life style [ls] always seem to involve compromises

let me state clearly that i have no objection to anyones ls choices

its just that i dont want sources that offer me LS options that compromise sound quality

at the moment i am silly enough to be investigating $600 mm carts!

am i ever going to be happy streming if improved SQ is my oobjective?

does ls choice cover the following;

INSTANLY ACCESSIBLE

LARGE NO HUGE 'LIBARY'

MUSIC IN MULTIPLE ROOMS FROM A SINGLE SOURCE

other please PEASE add cos there may be something i am missing here that i could use

i repeat-we all have life styles currently mine in hifi is around analytical Sound Quality

is streaming a a waste of my time?

[Spearmint]

Hello DJB,

Let me see if I can address your questions:

INSTANLY ACCESSIBLE - Yes

LARGE NO HUGE 'LIBARY' - Yes

MUSIC IN MULTIPLE ROOMS FROM A SINGLE SOURCE - Yes

am i ever going to be happy streming if improved SQ is my oobjective? - This is the million dollar question, I guess it depends on your interpretation of improved sound quality. Yes it will sound different, especially if you're comparing it to vinyl.

i repeat-we all have life styles currently mine in hifi is around analytical Sound Quality

is streaming a a waste of my time? IMO there is nothing particularly wrong with streamed audio, if you enjoy music you'll enjoy what it has to offer. Whether it ticks all of your requirements for quality then that is something for you to decide.

You're more than welcome to call by my place to experience what I've got setup, likewise I'm sure there are owners of other products whom would also allow you to experience their setups as well.

Streaming is similar to listening to the radio, except instead of ads and talking, you end up with only your favorite tunes playing one after the other.

[Grimmie]

Hi Minty,

thanks for a great post, and real food for thought for someone like me who is really interested in streamed music, - maybe, but nausiatingly terrified of the whole set-up thing most systems require.

For the money I feel the Sonos is a great lifestyle system.

Having had a demo at West Coast HI Fi in Joondalup I have to agree that it ticks all boxes re. set up and use, very cool!

Now let’s analyse the average audiophile, and ask ourselves how much actual time do we sit in front of our system to experience it in all its glory? Let’s face it; many have spent tens of thousands on equipment, and countless hours on tweaking to ensure the system sounds as good as can be had with what they have to work with. But after the initial WOW look and listen to my great system, how much time does one actually get to sit down in the dark and quiet and really enjoy the system considering the amount of dollars and time invested. Having a dual 2ch and HT setup does allow a greater amount of flexibility with regards to the amount of hours one can get to enjoy their system.

Here I have an issue, I watch only sport and news on TV and use my stereo at every opportunity, other than SNA-ing. I reckon that would go for many if not most who have invested so heavily.

Next question, out of all your music collection, do you have difficulty deciding which album/tracks you want to listen to, or is it a matter of playing the same ones many times over mainly due to not really being able to decide on what your mood is therefore what else to play?

Yep! always the hardest question, what to listen to next. My collection is modest compared to many, - 600 CD's and 150 albums, probably 50% "active" so to speak. I do buy at quite a rate though and often find I don't end-up giving albums enough time to grow on me as I used to when a record cost a quarter of my wage.

I think that in my case I would prefer to listen to what I choose rather than some other persons selection, but use the car radio on RTR FM in search of new stuff. Steve M reckons that digial 'radio' is great for discovering new music within genres, limitless and specialised, and that appeals to me no-end, being able to track-down stuff I have read about etc.

So now enters the streamed audio, and yes it is IMO around 95~98% of the quality of listening to the same CD being spun on a reasonable CD player;

Here is the rub. How are you ever going to convince an ardent Hi-Fi buff (Audiophool? music lover?) who's spent way beyond what any sane man should on attaining his slice of perfection, to actually volunteer to take a backward step. This just after introducing his latest mod. or 500dollar cable. 'Aint gonna happen. 95 to 98% is hell on earth to them. Vanity or uncompromising? - doesn't matter.

however the convenience factor of having either your entire CD collection on random play (or sequential) creating playlists for either entertaining or mood changes and if you have multiple zones throughout the home, listening to the same tracks at reasonable levels with no delays, echo’s or any other anomalies, just the music you enjoy without requiring you to make any decisions on what to play and when to play it.

Now you're talking, but about something else maybe. Not sure of the difference, parties, barbeques, cooking dinner even. Background music?

In my case my system runs all weekend streaming music, and if I get the urge to listen to any particular albums, or combination of tracks from various albums, do I crab the CD’s off the rack, no not on your Nelly, I grab the remote for my Sonos, sit back in my chair and bop along to what I want to enjoy without leaving the comfort of my chair.

As a great man once said, "whatever floats your boat"

There has been talk about Jitter levels in this thread, but what does it actually mean in the real world with what we’re listening to? Isn’t his what good DAC’s do, help eliminate the issue of Jitter? In my situation I listen to more music hours over a weekend via streamed audio than I would if I didn’t have it. I rarely use my room or system; sad I know, but it’s a fact of my lifestyle unfortunately.

Hardly sad or unfortunate if it serves a purpose and your LIFESTYLE

Also Minty you mentioned the lack of talking and adds, .......= Radio heaven

Thanks again

Grimmie

Edited April 6, 2010 by Grimmie