Tivo Vs Foxtel

[Saxon Hall]

Having read through this thread and it's sweeping generalisations I thought I would pop into my nearest Hardly Normal to look at a Tivo and see what sort of product knowledge the staff had about it.They told me they would not see any until July 17. Does anyone know if this is a set date for general release or would it just be this particular store(Thomastown,Vic)

[Brad..]

I'm a polygamist with three wives and just can't seem to get Oprah, Dr Phil, and Ellen sorted out at the same time.

ok

[e.z]

I'm a polygamist with three wives and just can't seem to get Oprah, Dr Phil, and Ellen sorted out at the same time.

lol lol lol man i couldn't put up with that. fair enough three wives, BUT oprah, dr phil & ellen all at the same time. Jeez =)

[pgdownload]

Having read through this thread and it's sweeping generalisations I thought I would pop into my nearest Hardly Normal to look at a Tivo and see what sort of product knowledge the staff had about it.They told me they would not see any until July 17. Does anyone know if this is a set date for general release or would it just be this particular store(Thomastown,Vic)

Its a set date (unless something happens)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Julian L]

For goodness sake, read the context of the quote. It's regarding someone making a budgeting decision on whether they can afford $3200 or $700, not about the content of foxtel or FTA. A poster assumed that if you can't afford to pay for foxtel, then TiVo is also out of contention. I was disputing this claim.

But a Foxtel subscription isn't $3200 over 2 years. Hence, the analogy was specious.

[crippstor]

This sort of tripe is typical of the uninformed - check your facts and you will find that 7 is in the process of negotiating all internet tv & movie data as not counting towards the caps of major ISP's!

Tivo will do very well with joe public, both my brother and father have told me Tivo will be replacing their Toppy 5000's + IceBoxes in the next month or so and both are typical CE users not gadget lovers.

Which major ISP's would that be? Number 1 is a part owner through it's parent in Foxtel, so that's unlikely not too mention it already provdes an unmetered movie download service. Number 2 sells pay tv services and as such may not want to upset that relationship and Number 3 already has unmetered content of TV shows and movies through Itune

[Deaf Bhoy]

I'm not posting here. This thread is just silly.

Cheers

Ron

But yer did post here just to tell us that!

[DrP]

This sort of tripe is typical of the uninformed - check your facts and you will find that 7 is in the process of negotiating all internet tv & movie data as not counting towards the caps of major ISP's!

Several of those 'major' ISPs have already made it abundantly clear that they have absolutely no intention of making such a service not count against download allowances without being given a considerable slice of the pie to cover the costs involved.

[suparockin]

If you look at most target sports you get additional points for being more accurate. Target shooting and archery come to mine. So your not actually getting a point for missing your getting extra points for being more accurate.

But hey Australian Rules is the only real football code. Its the only form of football where you can only use your feet to kick a goal/score maximum points.

Dig a hole mate, you can use your hands in AFL, not exactly actually FOOTball is it?

[Hosko]

Dig a hole mate, you can use your hands in AFL, not exactly actually FOOTball is it?

You can use your head and chest in soccer and what exactly does the goal keeper use

[djOS]

Several of those 'major' ISPs have already made it abundantly clear that they have absolutely no intention of making such a service not count against download allowances without being given a considerable slice of the pie to cover the costs involved.

Where is your evidence for this DrP? I keep a close eye on IT & Telco news due to being an IT Business Analyst and I've seen nothing to indicate this.

Which major ISP's would that be? Number 1 is a part owner through it's parent in Foxtel, so that's unlikely not too mention it already provdes an unmetered movie download service. Number 2 sells pay tv services and as such may not want to upset that relationship and Number 3 already has unmetered content of TV shows and movies through Itune

BigPond is a totally seperate division of Telstra and they luv showing off all the meter free content availble to BP customers - anyway the most liekly scenario is for 7/Tivo to make their services available via Pipe's peering network and most decent ISP's dont count Pipe data towards caps or give you a "local data" allowance that is the same size as your general allowance.

http://pipelist.googlepages.com/

What is PIPE?

Pipe networks operate (amongst other things) peering exchanges throughout Australia. A simplified explanation is that data that goes through a PIPE peering exchange is generally billed to the ISP for a fixed monthly cost, meaning traffic through PIPE generally costs less (although from the ISP's perspective it is not free.). It is also highly suited for gaming, since there are less "hops" at a greater speed between the gaming server and client, resulting in very low pings compared to interstate or even non-pipe traffic in the same state. The benefits of using PIPE differ depending on your ISP. Some, like Westnet, offer PIPE traffic completely free of charge and the data does not count towards your monthly quota. With others, like internode, pipe traffic counts towards your monthly quota but remains unprioritised when you go through your entire monthly quota.

Regardless, you are likely to notice that PIPE downloads will occur at the fastest possible speed, and gaming pings approaching as low as you will get. Some popular pipe-accessable websites have been listed at the bottom: you should be able to browse them at full speed regardless of shaping (depending on ISP).

[pgdownload]

I don't think it will be the ISPs driving the Tivo download 'phenomenon'. There are a lot of companies with the content and wanting a platform to send it to. I say they'll be footing the bill to the ISPs to cover download costs.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[DrP]

Where is your evidence for this DrP? I keep a close eye on IT & Telco news due to being an IT Business Analyst and I've seen nothing to indicate this.

Look harder.

...anyway the most liekly scenario is for 7/Tivo to make their services available via Pipe's peering network and most decent ISP's dont count Pipe data towards caps or give you a "local data" allowance that is the same size as your general allowance.

Invariably ISPs that give excessively large allowances (no matter how its provided) either scale them back once they attract a customer base that actually uses the allowance fully or they go bust. Many examples of ISPs winding back plans and of ISPs going bust are easily available.

Just wait until you see what happens with ii-Westnet's plans. As for Internode leaving 'pipe' sourced traffic unshaped once a user's quota is consumed; that is completely false.

Edited July 5, 2008 by DrP

[djOS]

Look harder.

Why dont you just provide some backup to your claims?

[djOS]

Invariably ISPs that give excessively large allowances (no matter how its provided) either scale them back once they attract a customer base that actually uses the allowance fully or they go bust. Many examples of ISPs winding back plans and of ISPs going bust are easily available.

Just wait until you see what happens with ii-Westnet's plans.

We are talking about Local Data sourced in Australia - Data is only expensive when it has to come via the current 2 undersea cable providers with links to the USA (will be 3 when Pipe's is finished).

[DrP]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish....

You claim to be an 'IT Business Analyst'. If you are then you should be aware of what I have said already. Being a business analyst involves more than reading what someone else has published and regurgitating it.

[DrP]

We are talking about Local Data sourced in Australia - Data is only expensive when it has to come via the current 2 undersea cable providers with links to the USA (will be 3 when Pipe's is finished).

That's a fundamental mistake, which given your supposed credentials you should not have made. Most ADSL subscribers in Australia are connected via Telstra's wholesale ADSL network. Telstra imposes very significant charges to carry data across that network - charges that in quite a few cases have been demonstrated to exceed the cost of hauling the data from the USA.

No, I won't provide you with examples of that either, you are an IT business analyst. You should be completely aware of this aspect of the pricing regime too.

[djOS]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish....

You claim to be an 'IT Business Analyst'. If you are then you should be aware of what I have said already. Being a business analyst involves more than reading what someone else has published and regurgitating it.

Cmon, I post links to back up my opinions but you obviously cant be bothered!

Oh and these days Im more of a Project Manager in the Middleware space (not by choice either ).

Edited July 5, 2008 by djOS

[DrP]

Cmon, I post links to back up my opinions but you obviously cant be bothered!

Precisely. I can't be bothered doing someone else's job for them.

[djOS]

That's a fundamental mistake, which given your supposed credentials you should not have made. Most ADSL subscribers in Australia are connected via Telstra's wholesale ADSL network. Telstra imposes very significant charges to carry data across that network - charges that in quite a few cases have been demonstrated to exceed the cost of hauling the data from the USA.

No, I won't provide you with examples of that either, you are an IT business analyst. You should be completely aware of this aspect of the pricing regime too.

Actually you are wrong, most independent ISP's use Backhaul providers like Silk Telecoms, Pipe and so forth - they avoid Telstra like the plauge and only use them for backhaul when there is no other provider who can service a particular exchange! And you accuse me on not knowing what Im talking about!!!!

[DrP]

Where those ISP's customers are using that ISP's own native network you are correct - their costs are far lower. However, most 'ADSL' ISPs have far more clients connected using Telstra's wholesale network than they do using their own network. These facts and figures are easily verifiable.

Edited July 5, 2008 by DrP

[djOS]

Where those ISP's customers are using that ISP's own native network you are correct - their costs are far lower. However, most 'ADSL' ISPs have far more clients connected using Telstra's wholesale network than they do using their own network. These facts and figures are easily verifiable.

Even if they are using Telstra DSLAM's, the ISP can still choose their own backhaul provider if available - regional australia is the only real issue.

http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/?tag=backhaul

When you're connected to the Internet, you typically do so via an Internet Service Provider (ISP). "Backhaul" refers to the high speed, high bandwidth connection that the ISP itself has to the Internet, and in turn provides to you. Even if you're on ADSL2+, it is your ISP's backhaul capacity that is critical in delivering high speed/bandwidth content such as video-on-demand. Only a few ISPs in Australia currently have this capacity.

Many ISPs find backhaul expenses prohibitive, limiting their ability to roll out broadband services in some areas. High backhaul charges contribute to the relatively high cost of providing broadband in Australia. Daryl Knight, national sales manager of ISP Internode has been quoted as saying, ...backhaul was probably one of the single largest issues Internode needed to overcome to make the deployment of infrastructure viable in regional areas.

iiNet chief executive Michael Malone is also quoted as saying, ...backhaul problems were most acute in regional areas where poor competition was driving up the price of bandwidth. The inner-metro area is competitive and several options are available for backhaul. Outside of that, pricing is prohibitive. Telstra was the only backhaul provider in most parts of regional Australia. In a lot of cases it's the only option and it's not cost effective because it tends to be distance specific in its charging model, and that's prohibitive when it comes to regional Australia.

Edited July 5, 2008 by djOS

[djOS]

Precisely. I can't be bothered doing someone else's job for them.

Btw, without links to back your statement up, your argument lacks credibility.

[DrP]

Once again you have a fundamental misunderstanding which is quite concerning.

One can not simply plug into Telstra's ADSL network at say, the Paget exchange in Mackay QLD and use 3rd party backhaul (even if it was available) to carry traffic to and from Brisbane. Telstra's network aggregates all ADSL connections in a state to a handful of localities (typically in the capital of that state) and from there the 3rd party ISP can use whatever method they choose to carry the data to / from their operations etc. This is how Telstra's charges affect all ISPs that access the TW ADSL network.

The backhaul example you have quoted is fundamentally different and only applies to ISPs that have installed their own equipment at the exchange building. One example of this is iinet as is Internode. iinet actively discourage the use of TW based connections - check their pricing tables. Both iinet and Internode have made public statements that they will not be providing this sort of content 'free' - ie not counted against the users quota - without 3rd party remuneration. I don't believe TPG have made any comments towards this, but given how poorly TPG's network behaves when the floodgates are opened during 'off peak' times its unlikely to be a smooth ride for TiVo content under TPG's operations. Will Optus? I'm not sure, but given Optus' charge for everything principle of operation - I doubt it.

Edited July 5, 2008 by DrP

[DrP]

Btw, without links to back your statement up, your argument lacks credibility.

As you can tell, I'm really really worried about that... coming from an IT business analyst that quotes Whirlpool articles as their source (and still manages to misunderstand!).