How much better

[stevoz]

28 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

So what would be "bad", say, about a new system at that price, assuming nothing - a simple notebook PC, Marantz PM6006 and any number of #1500  speakers with basic cables would come in under that price, for example. OK, so most of us here may own "better", and it's not "audiophile", and you may want to add a sub or two later - but would it be bad?

It's never bad! As long as the person spending is happy in the end and truly satisfied that they have received 'value'. As I said in my previous post, financial realities influence sonic expectations, so whatever our financial realities are, we should all hope to get 'value' for whatever we spend. If I was wealthier and got to the point where I was spending heaps on upgrades and questioning if there is indeed any improvement, I would consider that wasteful and probably 'draw a line in the sand', so to speak.........then be free to really enjoy the music without that little voice constantly nagging, "But it could it be better......"

Edited December 27, 2017 by stevoz

[Ralph]

OK here goes

 

I have (or am developing) both systems. What do I expect on a 30k v 3k?

Better bass = deeper, more harmonic, cleaner.

Better treble = greater extension, isolation of instrument in sound stage

Better Soundstage = [different expectations involved here], More (but also less) separation between instruments.                          

Big issue here as too much separation can lead to disjointed music.

Better Detail = easier identification of each instrument in the music. By this I mean each instrumental part, not just the instrument in itself. Ie you should be able to follow a viola line compared with a violin line.

 

Brings us to a bigger issue: By what standard does one judge "accuracy" ?

I have always chosen classical music for this:

1 It is acoustic by nature - no amplification, no reproduction in the chain (speakers, concerts, pa system etc. They are all part of what we are trying to reproduce).

2 There should be 'reasonable standard'. Ie. what does an acoustic violin sounds like?

3 Dynamic. - If it doubles in volume, your system should also double in volume.

4 Harmonics - If it carries overtones and harmonics, so too should your system (Eg. at the listener position). 

 

If not classical (I understand that it may be boring for some),  Then it should contain the same dynamics (and harmonics (!)) as the original PA system as the concert where you remember it from.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Ralph

[TerryO]

5 hours ago, hibo said:

Unfortunately, purchasing an amp based on specifications may lead to disappointment.  My challenge to you is to list the $3000 system that betters the sound of of a similarly listed $30000 system.

 

Martin.

x2

 

there are plenty of self proclaimed experts around who quote specs as the be all and end all in HiFi. Most I have read talk about numbers more than how something actually sounds. Mind you how something sounds is subjective, how numbers stack up makes life easy for those who are into reading more than listening.

 

The reality is if a $3000 system sounded as good as a $30,000 system then the manufacturer and retailer would end up selling it for a lot more than $3k because they could. I am not a frequenter of HiFi shows but I have read reports from people in here who have compared set ups and voted what was best in show. I have never read of anyone reporting that they heard a sub $5k system that was as good as a $30k system. Does that mean everyone that goes to shows is a snob or maybe that there are no wonder $3k systems out there just waiting to be discovered.

 

yes a $30k system can sound pretty ordinary if matched badly, but can someone, in fact anyone show me a $3k system that is anywhere near as good as any even reasonably balanced $30k system. I'd love to hear it if such a system exists.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by TerryO

[warweary]

Quality electronics at the end of their discount/RRP cycle seem to be a point where one can make significant savings relative to the Latest and hottest full price item.

The less middlemen in the chain is another factor that can easily influence end user value.

Is the hunt for 10 times the value aka $3k matching $30k system where it's at?

 

Interesting to read, in thread, of the sony 5 disc changer having a quality dac, would an ebay $3k system match your local hifi $30k? Second hand to new increases the odds, the aforementioned disc player can be had for less than $100 and may kick any number of expensive new streamers out of the park.  For that matter which is the optimum source value wise?

 

[Al.M]

2 hours ago, TerryO said:

x2

 

there are plenty of self proclaimed experts around who quote specs as the be all and end all in HiFi. Most I have read talk about numbers more than how something actually sounds. Mind you how something sounds is subjective, how numbers stack up makes life easy for those who are into reading more than listening.

 

The reality is if a $3000 system sounded as good as a $30,000 system then the manufacturer and retailer would end up selling it for a lot more than $3k because they could. I am not a frequenter of HiFi shows but I have read reports from people in here who have compared set ups and voted what was best in show. I have never read of anyone reporting that they heard a sub $5k system that was as good as a $30k system. Does that mean everyone that goes to shows is a snob or maybe that there are no wonder $3k systems out there just waiting to be discovered.

 

yes a $30k system can sound bad if matched badly, but can someone, in fact anyone show me a $3k system that is anywhere near as good as any even reasonably balanced $30k system. I'd love to hear it if such a system exists.

 

 

Let’s get back on track with the OP which was about a $30k rrp amp, so talk about used gear is out. The discussion subsided in July until our good neighbour from NZ brought it up again comparing this time about a $3k system, not just the amp.

 

For $3k system you could get a $1k intergrated new tube amp on eBay and eBay $1100 Wagner MTM speakers with parts similar to Lenehan bookshelf speaker plus allowance for CD player or other source equipment and it would sound very audiophile. A $30k physically equal system still allows greater range and better possibilities but with the law of diminishing returns would only be about 10% better, however 10% means a lot to those chasing it. See Pics below with that $3k you have EL34 tube 35w amp capable of great musicality, detail, imaging and sweetness and reasonable drive coupled with good Peerless woofers and the same highly regarded Scanspeak tweeter people are raving on about in Lenehan and other speakers in systems costing $10k

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Al.M

[batou]

"financial realities influence sonic expectations, so whatever our financial realities are, we should all hope to get 'value' for whatever we spend"

 

-totally agree, but  donot get delussional over this statement and thinking a 3k system would sound as good as 30k. i would not.

 

 

possible for 3k system sound like 30k?

possible if you have electronic know how and can tweak the system yourself.

 

buying brand new commercial items costing 3k to compete with 30k, i dont think its possible.

so far i never seen any commercial brand putting best quality parts (which translate to expensive parts) into a 3k components and make little or no profit out of it?

nobody in their right mind would do that.

my uncle used to have a factory. 

he told me rule of thumb is that material cost cannot exceed 50% of what you sell. or you would make a loss.(debatable, but i think he maybe right)

hence i dont think a 3k brand would compete against 30k. material cost and quality itself they are too far apart.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by batou

[Al.M]

18 minutes ago, batou said:

"financial realities influence sonic expectations, so whatever our financial realities are, we should all hope to get 'value' for whatever we spend"

 

-totally agree, but  donot get delussional over this statement and thinking a 3k system would sound as good as 30k. i would not.

 

 

possible for 3k system sound like 30k?

possible if you have electronic know how and can tweak the system yourself.

but buying commercial item cost 3k to compete with 30k, it is not impossible.

but i never see any commercial brand putting best quality parts (which translate to expensive parts) into a a 3k components and make little or no profit out of it?

nobody in their right mind would do that.

my uncle used to have a factory. 

he told me rule of thumb is that material cost cannot exceed 50% of what you sell. or you would make a loss.(debatable, but i think he maybe right)

hence i dont think a 3k brand would compete against 30k. material cost and quality itself they are too far apart.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree and often the material cost can be as low as about 10% plus production, marketing and dealer. 

 

I heard someones $40k speakers recently and have heard $3-5k speakers do about 90% of that but the last 10% costs exponentially more to achieve in general consistent with the hifi law of diminishing returns. You can find $1k speakers with $5-30 well performing tweeters that are also found in $50k speakers, which doesn’t explain everything but one may be unhappy to know that before buying a $50k speaker.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Al.M

[audio_file]

56 minutes ago, Al.M said:

Let’s get back on track with the OP which was about a $30k rrp amp, so talk about used gear is out. The discussion subsided in July until our good neighbour from NZ brought it up again comparing this time about a $3k system, not just the amp.

 

For $3k system you could get a $1k intergrated new tube amp on eBay and eBay $1100 Wagner MTM speakers with parts similar to Lenehan bookshelf speaker plus allowance for CD player or other source equipment and it would sound very audiophile. A $30k system physically equal system still allows greater range and better possibilities but with the law of diminishing returns would only be about 10% better, however 10% means a lot to those chasing it. See Pics below with that $3k you have EL34 tube 35w amp capable of great musicality, detail, imaging and sweetness and reasonable drive coupled with good Peerless woofers and the same highly regarded Scanspeak tweeter people are raving on about in Lenehan and other speakers in systems costing $10k

 

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Al.M said:

I agree and often the material cost can be as low as about 10% plus production, marketing and dealer. 

 

I heard someones $40k speakers recently and have heard $3-5k speakers do about 90% of that but the last 10% costs exponentially more to achieve in general consistent with the hifi law of diminishing returns. You can find $1k speakers with $5-30 well performing tweeters that are also found in $50k speakers, which doesn’t explain everything but one may be unhappy to know that before buying a $50k speaker.

 

To me a good, well balanced $20k system destroys a good, well balanced $10k system and sounds way better, not just 10%, and that gap should be bigger between $3k and $30k.

Maybe it's my imagination at play.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

11 minutes ago, audio_file said:

 

 

To me a good, well balanced $20k system destroys a good, well balanced $10k system and sounds way better, not just 10%, and that gap should be bigger between $3k and $30k.

Maybe it's my imagination at play.

By the time you reach $10000 you should be able to achieve a properly balanced, full range system. (I haven't quite, but the last links in my system have to wait for the kitchen refurbishment and the new carpet, and I'm still in a good place). After you get that far, the differences are objectively very small. How you perceive those differences may not be. You can take that comment as you wish.

[hibo]

1 hour ago, warweary said:

Quality electronics at the end of their discount/RRP cycle seem to be a point where one can make significant savings relative to the Latest and hottest full price item.

The less middlemen in the chain is another factor that can easily influence end user value.

Is the hunt for 10 times the value aka $3k matching $30k system where it's at?

 

Interesting to read, in thread, of the sony 5 disc changer having a quality dac, would an ebay $3k system match your local hifi $30k? Second hand to new increases the odds, the aforementioned disc player can be had for less than $100 and may kick any number of expensive new streamers out of the park.  For that matter which is the optimum source value wise?

 

If Stereo Coffee has this legendary Dac, he's welcome to come over and compare it to my Auralic Vega or Chord Dave.  I'd love to hear it kick them out of the park.

 

Martin

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

1 hour ago, TerryO said:

x2

 

there are plenty of self proclaimed experts around who quote specs as the be all and end all in HiFi. Most I have read talk about numbers more than how something actually sounds. Mind you how something sounds is subjective, how numbers stack up makes life easy for those who are into reading more than listening.

 

The reality is if a $3000 system sounded as good as a $30,000 system then the manufacturer and retailer would end up selling it for a lot more than $3k because they could. I am not a frequenter of HiFi shows but I have read reports from people in here who have compared set ups and voted what was best in show. I have never read of anyone reporting that they heard a sub $5k system that was as good as a $30k system. Does that mean everyone that goes to shows is a snob or maybe that there are no wonder $3k systems out there just waiting to be discovered.

 

yes a $30k system can sound bad if matched badly, but can someone, in fact anyone show me a $3k system that is anywhere near as good as any even reasonably balanced $30k system. I'd love to hear it if such a system exists.

 

 

The important aspects of the sound of the system actually is determined by the design and overall quality. That is reflected in how the system measures. How you respond is subjective, that's all.

[stevoz]

1 hour ago, batou said:

"financial realities influence sonic expectations, so whatever our financial realities are, we should all hope to get 'value' for whatever we spend"

 

-totally agree, but  do not get delusional over this statement and thinking a 3k system would sound as good as 30k. I would not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seeing you quoted me, I shall respond. I agree with you.....  My original point was a $30000 system will/should always sound better than a $3000 system, it just won't sound ten (or even five) times better and that the adage 'the pricier, the better' is not always accurate, when you're getting into really pricey higher end upgrades. Some here are claiming that it is possible to do some system magic with $3000 and I have a system bought second hand that set me back about $3500 which I think sounds pretty magic but I understand that it will rarely, if ever, beat a system worth $30000. I know that from visiting the 'Hi Fi Show' this year......but I'm still happy with what I've got, despite those 'financial realities'!

[batou]

7 minutes ago, stevoz said:

Seeing you quoted me, I shall respond. I agree with you.....  My original point was a $30000 system will/should always sound better than a $3000 system, it just won't sound ten (or even five) times better and that the adage 'the pricier, the better' is not always accurate, when you're getting into really pricey higher end upgrades. Some here are claiming that it is possible to do some system magic with $3000 and I have a system bought second hand that set me back about $3500 which I think sounds pretty magic but I understand that it will rarely, if ever, beat a system worth $30000. I know that from visiting the 'Hi Fi Show' this year......but I'm still happy with what I've got, despite those 'financial realities'!

sorry, when i said do not get delussional i dont mean specifically you. but people in general. cheers

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, Al.M said:

so talk about used gear is out

@Al.M

I have come to this thread late and have not read every post.  To me there is considerable fluffing around in some of what has been said.  The same goes for some other threads on SNA.  I consider that the fundamental question is, is there a relationship between relative cost, quality of components and the final performance.  I contend that there definitely is as there are in many other aspects of life.  Audio is not unique in the relationship

The starting point is the quote above.  I absolutely agree with the quote.  Second hand costs are totally irrelevant in this comparison.  From my experience (which is limited compared to some) any well curated system comprising well designed appropriate quality products that costs an order of magnitude more than an another will outperform the lesser expensive system.  Naturally the law of diminishing returns prevails.

Before I started down the slippery slope of system upgrade the cost of my entire system was probably equal to just the cost of the Antipodes server I now use.  At that time I was pleased with what I had.  I had an AVR, a CD and speakers

I only started down the slippery slope four years ago when I bought my Lenehan ML2 Ltds.  Since then I have gone through a variety of iterations of components.  I naively thought that my Yamaha AVR was fine for the 2 channel outcome.  Good as it was it was not in the race. 

Over the past few years I have spent some serious money on quality components.  For example I am into my third level of Vitus amplification.  Each time it has been a step up.  What I now hear from my system is exquisitely beautiful.  I am very satisfied and happy with what I have achieved often through good advice. 

The advice is an important ingredient with my progress.  There has been a significant cost but the quality whilst expensive produces the outcome I sought.  However I also know that I could do better.  It all comes down to a balance between the dollars of which there is not enough and the thrill of the chase of the sweet spot of musical pleasure.

John

[Al.M]

I still believe a $30k system will be better than $3k and as the OP mentioned not 5 x better.

 

The other issue is pricing at that $30k system level there is tendency for more than just parts and production cost and material finishes coming into play, such as “hi end” tagging potentially affecting prices which can but not always throw the equation even further out of whack and it’s an even less logically mind appreciation game. With the $3k system that I mentioned the Wagner MTM speaker and EL34 tube amp it will tick the majority of audiophile boxes and the rest is up to the listener to apply their personal appreciation, which is not always universal among us or assessible in any logical manner, particularly where you were blindfolded in front of each system.

 

The suggested $3k system (Wagner MTM speakers and EL34 tube amp) would have:

 

1. Very refined and sweet treble detail

2. Good imaging and voice for a two way driver speaker

3. Good bass punch though not very deep

4. Musicality in spades

5. The cons might be unwanted tube warmth, cabinet resonances and less precise sound.

 

A $30k physically similar system might be using the same or only slightly better driver parts in their speaker but in ultra classy million dollar looking cabinet finish and their EL34 amp might be say a $15k Jadis amp which is to die for. The likely physical difference in addition to points 1-4 above could be:

 

1. More rigid speaker cabinet that has less cabinet resonance and higher quality crossover circuit capacitors resulting in better highs and some clarity but not be an immense better sound.

2. The Jadis amp build quality is immensly better than the eBay Chinese build amp and in sound would have better bass and sweeter highs.

 

So effectively the $3k system would be doing most of what the $30k system is doing and you are left to subjectively decide on the improvements. However, the $30k budget allows a greater range of options such as large $15k floor standing three way driver speakers that will have deeper bass and clearer midrange and the latest of fantastic solid state amps. The gap will then start to widen compared to the $3k budget as there won’t be wider options.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Al.M

[robmid]

9 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

Not necessarily that 30K will sound better , you just need the right equipment, and you do Not have to spend 30k either, in fact 3k is ample. I will let others explain.

For countless years I have been trying to recreate a ‘goose bump’ experience I had when I heard my first mono Leak Valve amp running a big set of Goodmans playing directly mastered organ music in the 60’s.

Needless to say, these were high end systems in their day but sound quality has improved dramatically and become more affordable.

However, I still haven’t found any systems in dealer showrooms or audio gtg’s that had the same effect.

As I am on a pensioner's income and have done quite a few DIY builds, I decided DIY was the way I could afford some decent sound that suited my tastes.

My latest budget system exceeds all my expectations in spades.
TOTAL PARTS COST: $2500

Preamp:  The just released version of StereoCoffee LDR Passive preamp with 3 inputs = $175
Interconnects: Copper Canare GS-6 cables with Taiwanese RCA’s with single pin ground = $75
Speaker Cables: 1.5 inch x 1/1000 inch insulated copper foil from Uriah Dailey = $90
Power Amplifier: Holton NXV200 R2 Signature 150watt DIY kit = $950 
Speakers: ‘505’ Electrostatic Mini Panels with Peerless 8 inch Nomex HDS woofers = $950

I haven't included a signal source, but I did pay $10 for my Thorens TD160 at an opshop.

Although I am using prototype untuned enclosures the listening experience is immersive with imaging sometimes one metre outside the speakers.

Cabinet colouration does not exist any more and performances are convincing.

Female voice reproduction is finely textured and pure without any harshness and instruments are ‘in the room’.

The reason for my choice in components was simplicity and neutrality. My theory is that less components equals less interference with the original signal with the benefit of costing less.

Chris’s StereoCoffee LDR preamp provides a beautifully pristine signal without any audible component interference floating over a totally silent background.

The Holton amplifier has heaps of clean latent grunt without any harshness. The sound could be described as un-solid state.

The small 505 ESL panels with woofers for under $1000 are the big surprise and leave everyone who has experienced them gobsmacked.

Despite posts to the contrary, the 505 ESL’s seem to have a sweet spot similar the LS50’s. They also handle complex orchestral music more realistically.

Yes, my system can produce goose bumps, but not like vintage gear.

I still have a long way to go tuning my enclosures and crossovers, bit I’m already impressed and I’m the one I have to please. :-)

 

[Assisi]

3 minutes ago, robmid said:

For countless years I have been trying to recreate a ‘goose bump’ experience

@robmid Your goose bumps experience may depend on particular aspects of your brain and not the system you were listening to.

Follow the links in the article

https://www.indy100.com/article/music-goosebumps-some-people-science-research-emotions-psychology-study-harvard-7926781?S2ref=893910

 

John

 

[Al.M]

1 hour ago, robmid said:

TOTAL PARTS COST: $2500

Preamp:  The just released version of StereoCoffee LDR Passive preamp with 3 inputs = $175
Interconnects: Copper Canare GS-6 cables with Taiwanese RCA’s with single pin ground = $75
Speaker Cables: 1.5 inch x 1/1000 inch insulated copper foil from Uriah Dailey = $90
Power Amplifier: Holton NXV200 R2 Signature 150watt DIY kit = $950 
Speakers: ‘505’ Electrostatic Mini Panels with Peerless 8 inch Nomex HDS woofers = $950

Agree with you totally on the merits of DIY and also would like to add in used gear.

 

If the OP was rephrased $30k system vs $3k all else including DIY and used the $30k system would be mince meat on price performance. Unfortunately DIY and used systems are not for everyone, lack of skills, appearances, there are issues and the path to success is not always guaranteed either. Also, you and I could not say that for 100% certainty that we have heard enough $30k systems to say for sure that we are right. $30k could buy some pretty good latest Quad ESL speakers and matching new amps that could trounce a DIY system and totally smash a well chosen $3k one.

 

I also run used and DIY systems that can run rings around more expensive rrp stuff and current available commercial systems. I have the same Rob Mickinley 505 ESLs as you and will finish implementing them in future. The Rob Mickinly kit ESLs far exceed what a Kef Ls50 can do best, imaging and detail is off the scale above the $40k speaker I have heard or a shop B&W 802D. You can also get this with vintage electrostatic speakers like Acoustat, Quad 57 and others but they have their own issues. I am currently running old full range Acoustat 121 ESL Speakers, with a DIY Kef 139 oval woofers in 100L folded transmission line sub, Chinese cloned Goldmund Nimesis 29 solid state power amp and kit built tube preamp.

 

The 505 ESL will be for HT use and I’m trying make a compact monitor ESL hybrid speaker out of them to provide goose bump imaging and detail with ease in my HT system. I briefly tried them with some small 5 inch woofers and the results were immediately apparent.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Al.M

[TerryO]

If some of you want to use secondhand prices to make the imaginary 'just as good' $3000 system look good then that's a argument you will surely loose.

 

Plenty of people around to buy entry level secondhand gear, there is a lot fewer who will buy top end five year old HiFi gear so the depreciation in general is massive,  very few things depreciate faster than top end HiFi gear from what I have seen. Think about what goodies one could buy secondhand for $30k versus what you could for $3k.

 

No disrespect for DIY punters but it's not gear you can go out and buy and plug in,, it  is great for those with the ability, the time and the inclination but at a guess that would be way less than 5% of people who own a 2 channel system.

 

[robmid]

11 hours ago, Assisi said:

@robmid Your goose bumps experience may depend on particular aspects of your brain and not the system you were listening to.

Follow the links in the article

https://www.indy100.com/article/music-goosebumps-some-people-science-research-emotions-psychology-study-harvard-7926781?S2ref=893910

 

John

 

Thanks for the link John.

That's very interesting.

It doesn't happen all the time so I assumed it was all imaginary.

Rob

 

[Steve M]

2 hours ago, TerryO said:

If some of you want to use secondhand prices to make the imaginary 'just as good' $3000 system look good then that's a argument you will surely loose.

 

Plenty of people around to buy entry level secondhand gear, there is a lot fewer who will buy top end five year old HiFi gear so the depreciation in general is massive,  very few things depreciate faster than top end HiFi gear from what I have seen. Think about what goodies one could buy secondhand for $30k versus what you could for $3k.

 

No disrespect for DIY punters but it's not gear you can go out and buy and plug in,, it  is great for those with the ability, the time and the inclination but at a guess that would be way less than 5% of people who own a 2 channel system.

 

 

TerryO has almost summarised this discussion, namely, that comparing apples with apples $3K spent on secondhand cannot beat $30K spent on secondhand. Similarly, if comparing new for new $30K spent will win out.

 

That said, you can have a win sometimes by looking out for unique and thoughtfully created products like the speakers in Al M’s avatar ...the new Yamaha NS-5000. I think that that loudspeaker @$20K competes in the $100K+ Class for accuracy and refinement, having heard Wilson Audio Alexia and the like.

 

Agree too that DIY done right (or close enough) punches very high. An example is one of my own humble spkr constructs shown below. I built this using about $4K RRP in parts, mainly because to get that type of sound quality commercially you would have to spend at least $10K on s/h or $20K+ on a new loudspeaker. Not suggesting it’s for everyone as you need time and patience, but it is a rewarding pursuit.

 

Steve.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Steve M

[stevoz]

I think all we've learned from the many rantings on this subject, some sensible and some downright (wealth based) biased, is that if your rich enough to afford a $30000 system, you can go new but if your budget is only $3000 you go 'common sense' and buy second hand and end up with a $10000 system or DIY and end up with something approaching maybe a $20000 system if you get it right, with success depending on your technical DIY prowess. To buy new with a $3000 budget will get you 'entry level' at best and will never beat a $30000 system, but I know one thing, if I spent $30000 on a system and wasn't ultimately happy with it, I wouldn't be admitting it's flaws to anyone (that would make me look like a rich dick who's wasted my money)....... I would be quietly 'upgrading' in the name of 'searching for perfection', ie: spending even more! Wow, I might even come on a thread like this and defend my flawed $30000 system to the death! I'd call it 'the revolving door of the stubborn ego'.......high end stores love it when you guys walk through that door! Sort of glad I'm in a 'financially restrained' situation and am actually satisfied with what I've got.

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by stevoz

[Guest Sime]

@stevoz ditto, couldn’t be happier. 

[batou]

19 minutes ago, stevoz said:

I think all we've learned from the many rantings on this subject, some sensible and some downright (wealth based) biased, is that if your rich enough to afford a $30000 system, you can go new but if your budget is only $3000 you go 'common sense' and buy second hand and end up with a $10000 system or DIY and end up with something approaching maybe a $20000 system if you get it right, with success depending on your technical DIY prowess. To buy new with a $3000 budget will get you 'entry level' at best and will never beat a $30000 system, but I know one thing, if I spent $30000 on a system and wasn't ultimately happy with it, I wouldn't be admitting it's flaws to anyone (that would make me look like a rich dick who's wasted my money)....... I would be quietly 'upgrading' in the name of 'searching for perfection', ie: spending even more! Wow, I might even come on a thread like this and defend my flawed $30000 system to the death! I'd call it 'the revolving door of the stubborn ego'.......high end stores love it when you guys walk through that door! Sort of glad I'm in a 'financially restrained' situation and am actually satisfied with what I've got.

 

agree with most of your points. 

except the point where it say 'wealth based' biased. for i myself cannot buy a brand new $30k at one shot or i ll be hanged.

what i suggest is be realistic. you cannot compare a honda civic against merc c class. there is no comparison period. 

a handful of us might think honda civic is better quality but most people will think you are crazy. they are just different league. 

am i happy with my honda civic? i am. do i go telling my mates my honda civic is same quality as his merc c class.

no, because i know it is not.

 

 

 

 

[Peter_F]

4 hours ago, TerryO said:

No disrespect for DIY punters but it's not gear you can go out and buy and plug in,, it  is great for those with the ability, the time and the inclination but at a guess that would be way less than 5% of people who own a 2 channel system.

 

I agree.  IME DIY has much less resale value than normal hifi as one person's creation of passion can be another persons acoustic disaster.