Why is CD still better than HiRes streaming?

[tadaoo]

 

Hi, 

 

I am always puzzled to find systematically better sound quality from a CD source than from my streamer...

 

My system is as follows :

 

Source:

 

Streaming:  Bluesound Node (2021) streamer with modified Power supply (LHY Audio kit and LPS), using Qobuz

 

CD Player: Oppo BDP-83

 

External DAC: Denafrips Ares II

 

Pre-amplifier: Rotel A11 Tribute 

 

Power amp: Audiophonics MPA-S250NC (Hypex Ncore)

 

Speakers: Sonus Faber Lumina I

 

I enclose a schematic for reference.

 

 

 

Both sources, streamer and CD player are connected to the external DAC, so they are only used as transport.  Bluesound is connected to the DAC with a coaxial cable and the CD player with an optical cable; swapping the cables made no hearable difference.

 

I use mainly the streamer for everyday listening, and occasionally a CD;  

 

Once in a while I compare the same music / album from my CD collection to the Qobuz digital equivalent, preferably in HiRes, to prove myself that streaming can be better than CD.

I have yet to find a track that sounds as good if not better from the streaming source than on CD.

 

I am very happy with the Bluesound/Qobuz soundin general, but I'm a lot happier with my system when I play CDs- it actually brings me enough musical satisfaction to tame my upgrade fever.

 

My latest listening session is with the "Autumn Leaves" track form the Cannonball Adderley all star Masterpiece "Somethin' Else".

 

The CD version shows more defined and less boomy bass, more textured mids (syrupy horns), a wider soundstage with better stereo definition, superior imaging and a more detailed sound.

When comparing (back and forth) to the Qobuz HiRes (FLAC 24/96) version it seems less airy, bass is a bit muffled and the instrument separation is less convincing.

 

Of course, now I want to upgrade my streaming sound quality to match what I get from my CD player.

 

Since all the audio chain downstream is identical, (same DAC, same preamp, same amp, same speakers and same cables) I am blaming the Bluesound node, even with the PSU upgrade to fail in its mission to optimise the transport of Hires digital files and to be outperformed by a 15 years old Bluray player...

 

Would a better (more expensive) streamer solve my problem?  

Or is the nature of streaming too dependant external factors (quality of internet connection, the temperature in the server farm, or the underwater interferences on submarine communication cables due to crab activities...) and therefore inherently unable to outperform or match the CD technology?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2024 by tadaoo

[muon*]

 

[Guest]

Streaming is held back by noise in the network equipment. Please have a look at the  Ethernet switches thread here.

https://www.stereonet.com/forums/forum/447-ethernet-networking-for-audio/

 

Note that many of the threads are long and some are closed.  Hopefully, the heated arguments are in the past...

[sir sanders zingmore]

3 hours ago, tadaoo said:

Since all the audio chain downstream is identical, (same DAC, same preamp, same amp, same speakers and same cables)

There are a couple of upstream differences:  the CD player has a stock power cord. Maybe the fancy cord is hampering the streamer. 
Far more likely is the source itself. You have no way of knowing whether the Qobuz and CD versions are identical. 

 

[bob_m_54]

1 minute ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Far more likely is the source itself. You have no way of knowing whether the Qobuz and CD versions are identical. 

I agree with this...

[ray4410]

yeah i have done direct comparison  of the same song via a respected cd player and usb streaming and have found that sometimes depending on disc that either one can sound better

[DacMan101]

I once had a CD (Australian pressed) that sounded terrible. I ended up with a MP3 version of the album (128k) that was leaps and bounds above the CD. 
Fast forward to today, most CD's (mainstream) sound great. For me now, it depends on the streamer and CD player (or transport) 

My listening now days is to sit and enjoy the music. Mostly from my ripped CD collection. Streaming is only if I don't have the CD/rip. 

[maximus]

+1 as @ray4410Many 70's recordings at 24bit sound a lot better than my original vinyl and CD'S of the same song, but I'm upscaling to DSD512. There's more body, energy and ambience on my system(Lumin T2+ Lps).

In saying that, higher quality CD and SACD recordings reign supreme, but these are either Jazz or Orchestral on exclusive labels.....and expensive.  

Many on these forums have argued that 24bit is a con and fancy numbering, but on my system generally sounds superior to 16 bit.

[TerryO]

8 hours ago, tadaoo said:

 

Hi, 

 

I am always puzzled to find systematically better sound quality from a CD source than from my streamer...

 

My system is as follows :

 

Source:

 

Streaming:  Bluesound Node (2021) streamer with modified Power supply (LHY Audio kit and LPS), using Qobuz

 

CD Player: Oppo BDP-83

 

External DAC: Denafrips Ares II

 

Pre-amplifier: Rotel A11 Tribute 

 

Power amp: Audiophonics MPA-S250NC (Hypex Ncore)

 

Speakers: Sonus Faber Lumina I

 

I enclose a schematic for reference.

 

 

 

Both sources, streamer and CD player are connected to the external DAC, so they are only used as transport.  Bluesound is connected to the DAC with a coaxial cable and the CD player with an optical cable; swapping the cables made no hearable difference.

 

I use mainly the streamer for everyday listening, and occasionally a CD;  

 

Once in a while I compare the same music / album from my CD collection to the Qobuz digital equivalent, preferably in HiRes, to prove myself that streaming can be better than CD.

I have yet to find a track that sounds as good if not better from the streaming source than on CD.

 

I am very happy with the Bluesound/Qobuz soundin general, but I'm a lot happier with my system when I play CDs- it actually brings me enough musical satisfaction to tame my upgrade fever.

 

My latest listening session is with the "Autumn Leaves" track form the Cannonball Adderley all star Masterpiece "Somethin' Else".

 

The CD version shows more defined and less boomy bass, more textured mids (syrupy horns), a wider soundstage with better stereo definition, superior imaging and a more detailed sound.

When comparing (back and forth) to the Qobuz HiRes (FLAC 24/96) version it seems less airy, bass is a bit muffled and the instrument separation is less convincing.

 

Of course, now I want to upgrade my streaming sound quality to match what I get from my CD player.

 

Since all the audio chain downstream is identical, (same DAC, same preamp, same amp, same speakers and same cables) I am blaming the Bluesound node, even with the PSU upgrade to fail in its mission to optimise the transport of Hires digital files and to be outperformed by a 15 years old Bluray player...

 

Would a better (more expensive) streamer solve my problem?  

Or is the nature of streaming too dependant external factors (quality of internet connection, the temperature in the server farm, or the underwater interferences on submarine communication cables due to crab activities...) and therefore inherently unable to outperform or match the CD technology?

 

 

 

 

The answer to your question, in my opinion, is it is system related.
 

If you put a higher quality streamer into your system than your existing CD-P then streaming would sound better than what your CD-P delivers and then vice versa if you then put a higher quality CD-P into your system then it would once again overtake the new Streamer. 
 

Personally I have found that if you go far enough up the ladder then Streaming can and will deliver a much higher SQ than a high level CD-P. Unfortunately to get near the best in either delivery system means it gets very expensive though.

I agree with others comments that 24bit (in the majority of cases) delivers a higher SQ than CD level, but not always and it also very much depends on what service provider you subscribe too. I for the vast majority of music I stream in my main system much prefer Qobuz to Tidal, still I use both.

Having said that I have heard Tidal nearly always sound better than the same Qobuz tracks in a mates system, so it can be system dependant.
 

Sometimes this hobby is quite frustrating as often there are few absolutes that one can rely on, that is why in my opinion one can only really go on what one actually hears for themselves, whether that be from their own system or demoing components else where rather than basing, especially purchasing, decisions on what others hear in their systems. 

 

cheers,

Terry
 

 

Edited February 13, 2024 by TerryO

[Assisi]

7 minutes ago, TerryO said:

The answer to your question, in my opinion, is it is system related.
 

If you put a higher quality streamer into your system than your existing CD-P then streaming would sound better than what your CD-P delivers and then vice versa if you then put a higher quality CD-P into your system then it would once again overtake the new Streamer.

Exactly!

[Satanica]

8 hours ago, tadaoo said:

My latest listening session is with the "Autumn Leaves" track form the Cannonball Adderley all star Masterpiece "Somethin' Else".

 

The CD version shows more defined and less boomy bass, more textured mids (syrupy horns), a wider soundstage with better stereo definition, superior imaging and a more detailed sound.

 

When comparing (back and forth) to the Qobuz HiRes (FLAC 24/96) version it seems less airy, bass is a bit muffled and the instrument separation is less convincing.

 

As has been basically mentioned, it is very likely there are mastering differences.

 

The DR database as shown below should demonstrate that original CD releases are different, because they have a different (higher) Dynamic Range values when compared to later CD and "hires" 24/96 & 24/192 remasters.

 

https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/1/year/asc?artist=Cannonball Adderley&album=Somethin

 

It seems very likely that what Qobuz is streaming is the 24/96 remaster as shown,

Edited February 13, 2024 by Satanica

[POV]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

 

As has been basically mentioned, it is very likely there are mastering differences.

 

The DR database as shown below should demonstrate that original CD releases are different, because they have a different (higher) Dynamic Range values when compared to later CD and "hires" 24/96 & 24/192 remasters.

 

https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/1/year/asc?artist=Cannonball Adderley&album=Somethin

 

It seems very likely that what Qobuz is streaming is the 24/96 remaster as shown,

Yep, I suspect that this issue, and to a lesser degree a lack of volume levelling when doing comparisons,  is by far the most significant factor in comparisons between CD and streamed music when people notice it.  If you look at the dynamic range difference this is most likely to be made more impactful to perceived fidelity than other marginal factors IMO.

Edited February 13, 2024 by POV

[aechmea]

It appears to me that it is the source material. 

 

The variation in those masterings pointed out by @Satanica and earlier suggested by @sir sanders zingmore are orders of magnitude greater than any differences in streaming company, network hardware, playback hardware/software, bit depth, sample rate, deep sea crabs or your hearing.

 

And of course we have no idea which mastering is being streamed.  And compressed stuff generally sounds awful compared to say the pre 1995 CD.  Some modern masterings are OK but I always check the DR database before forking out money.  Different releases and different masterings and the respective DR stat is a minefield.  The differences can be huge as they seem to be in this case.

 

I also notice that most of those analysed releases have different volumes as well as different dynamic ranges.  One is about 10dB down which is the equivalent of about half volume to the ear.

 

 

[playdough]

Some of the streamed music is ok for sound quality weather it be via I Tunes, or other platforms, some is not so good, easy to skip those. 

It;s like comparing a BVD to a HD Streamed movie.

Have gone 100% Digital with a quality disk player and about to move on the(Edited), Pre and associated bank of black things.

Finding CD's to be rather cheap and plentiful (in comparison to quality  black things) these days being over 50, another good reason to go to the Markets.

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2024 by playdough
Don't want a holiday.

[sir sanders zingmore]

This is not a turntable thread. 
Next person who derails this thread with a smartarse (or otherwise) comment about turntables will get a holiday. 
 

[TerryO]

Some interesting comments, pardon me if I’m getting this wrong but, do you guys believe the level of SQ delivered is all about the music files/Mastering etc and that components, like Streamers etc, make little to no difference?

 

cheers,

Terry

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2024 by TerryO

[BugPowderDust]

@TerryO I would agree with that statement.
 

The differences in source material are orders of magnitude more important than switching components, cables, network switches and other items in a digital system.

 

I’d also say room treatment and room correction are also orders of magnitude more important in your listening outcome than switching between various well made source components. 

[POV]

34 minutes ago, TerryO said:

Some interesting comments, pardon me if I’m getting this wrong but, do you guys believe the level of SQ delivered is all about the music files/Mastering etc and that components, like Streamers etc, make little to no difference?

 

cheers,

Terry

 

 

 

 

Hi Terry, that's not what I was personally saying.  What I meant was that when specifically comparing CDs vs Streaming it's critical that folks are aware of which release they are listening to.  Whilst there are some fantastic re-masters out there that sound superb, there's many that have had their dynamic range compressed and in some cases severely compressed.  One of the down sides of streaming services (including Qobuz and Tidal) is that they typically only have the latest remaster, and rarely seem to have an option to stream original mastering version.

 

So in those circumstances it's not an apples to apples comparison if playing a CD and streamed copy of the same album that come from different masters with (potentially significant) different dynamic range.

 

To your broader question, my general view of comparing countless devices is that the differences between digital transports can be audible under particular circumstances, but nowhere near as significant as is made out by some folks in the audiophile community.  One thing that often seems to be overlooked as well when comparing devices that include DACs is level matching.  Even relatively small variations in output voltages from analog outputs can have a signficant impact on percieved fidelity, and people typically always 'prefer' the louder of the 2 when doing a/b comparisons.

Edited February 13, 2024 by POV

[POV]

1 minute ago, BugPowderDust said:

@TerryO I would agree with that statement.
 

The differences in source material are orders of magnitude more important than switching components, cables, network switches and other items in a digital system.

 

I’d also say room treatment and room correction are also orders of magnitude more important in your listening outcome than switching between various well made source components. 

 

Totally agree with this and good on you for saying it.  

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

15 hours ago, tadaoo said:

 

Hi, 

 

I am always puzzled to find systematically better sound quality from a CD source than from my streamer...

 

My system is as follows :

 

Source:

 

Streaming:  Bluesound Node (2021) streamer with modified Power supply (LHY Audio kit and LPS), using Qobuz

 

CD Player: Oppo BDP-83

 

External DAC: Denafrips Ares II

 

Pre-amplifier: Rotel A11 Tribute 

 

Power amp: Audiophonics MPA-S250NC (Hypex Ncore)

 

Speakers: Sonus Faber Lumina I

 

I enclose a schematic for reference.

 

 

 

Both sources, streamer and CD player are connected to the external DAC, so they are only used as transport.  Bluesound is connected to the DAC with a coaxial cable and the CD player with an optical cable; swapping the cables made no hearable difference.

 

I use mainly the streamer for everyday listening, and occasionally a CD;  

 

Once in a while I compare the same music / album from my CD collection to the Qobuz digital equivalent, preferably in HiRes, to prove myself that streaming can be better than CD.

I have yet to find a track that sounds as good if not better from the streaming source than on CD.

 

I am very happy with the Bluesound/Qobuz soundin general, but I'm a lot happier with my system when I play CDs- it actually brings me enough musical satisfaction to tame my upgrade fever.

 

My latest listening session is with the "Autumn Leaves" track form the Cannonball Adderley all star Masterpiece "Somethin' Else".

 

The CD version shows more defined and less boomy bass, more textured mids (syrupy horns), a wider soundstage with better stereo definition, superior imaging and a more detailed sound.

When comparing (back and forth) to the Qobuz HiRes (FLAC 24/96) version it seems less airy, bass is a bit muffled and the instrument separation is less convincing.

 

Of course, now I want to upgrade my streaming sound quality to match what I get from my CD player.

 

Since all the audio chain downstream is identical, (same DAC, same preamp, same amp, same speakers and same cables) I am blaming the Bluesound node, even with the PSU upgrade to fail in its mission to optimise the transport of Hires digital files and to be outperformed by a 15 years old Bluray player...

 

Would a better (more expensive) streamer solve my problem?  

Or is the nature of streaming too dependant external factors (quality of internet connection, the temperature in the server farm, or the underwater interferences on submarine communication cables due to crab activities...) and therefore inherently unable to outperform or match the CD technology?

 

 

 

 

Given your criticism of the node is comparing the cd, have you ripped the cd and played the same files with the node so it’s the same master and resolution etc?

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

Might also be worth taking out a free trial with tidal hifi (not master) and comparing

the sound.

[TerryO]

22 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

@TerryO I would agree with that statement.
 

The differences in source material are orders of magnitude more important than switching components, cables, network switches and other items in a digital system.

 

I’d also say room treatment and room correction are also orders of magnitude more important in your listening outcome than switching between various well made source components. 

Thank you for responding, while I agree the room is one of those often overlooked parts of Hifi that is incredibly important, in this case the room is for another discussion.
 

When comparing music files/material to hardware it would always be a case of using the same room and to get an apples v apples comparison one would also use the same downloaded files. 
 

At present I have here in my demo stock list over twelve different Streamers/servers at different levels from a number of different brands, ranging from an entry level Bluesound N130 right through to Antipodes Oladra G4 with many different levels and brands in between price wise. These range from $999 to $47,500 in RRP. Plus I have had quite a number of other brands and models of Streamers here in the last year that were here for comparison.

 

I also have several CD-P’s ranging from $1500 to $20,000RRP, but leaving CD-P’s out of this comparison just for now, lets focus on the same dowloaded music file from the same music service provider, played back to back at the same volume with the same interconnects through the same DAC/amplification/speakers etc in the same treated room on different brands and models of Streamers for a moment. So the only real difference is the Streamer.

 

Having been doing these back to back comparisons for over two years now I can say with absolute certainty that the, so called, hardware (Streamer) makes a huge difference to SQ delivered and while a higher quality file is always a bonus and to that end I spend lots of time comparing the same track from different service providers and their different versions so I can play the best versions, to my ears, of test tracks for people who come here for a listening session.  Still the same track be it a better recording or not so far has always sounded better on a higher quality Streamer and the differences in SQ between an entry level Streamer and a top end Streamer is massive in any system that can successfully pass on at a high level the sq being presented to it by the Streamer.
 

Getting back to CD-Ps in comparison, one has to go quite high up in the streamer quality levels to surpass the top end of CD-P’s that I have been lucky to hear and I admit I have not heard every top end CD-P out there, but so far a top end Streamer playing good sounding files is a clear step up over even a top end CD-P. 
 

To my ears to date Streaming and the level of Streamer is now easily my choice when I want to hear a system at its best, two years ago I would have said top end CD-P or, dare I say it, high end vinyl, that is no longer the case.

 

More than happy for anyone who feels so inclined and wants to hear for themselves what I’m describing to visit here including the different levels of Streamers for a comparison listening session or Two.

 

cheers,

Terry

 

Edited February 14, 2024 by TerryO

[Guest]

23 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

@TerryO I would agree with that statement.
 

The differences in source material are orders of magnitude more important than switching components, cables, network switches and other items in a digital system.

 

I’d also say room treatment and room correction are also orders of magnitude more important in your listening outcome than switching between various well made source components. 

In agreement with this - to take a slightly less holistic view of a whole system/room (we can eliminate the room by using headphones for example), adopting the source-first principal, the source material is without doubt most important. You cant claw back what is already lost/compressed/caked into software with even the best hardware. If anything, the best hardware will make it painfully obvious how bad the source material is to begin with. This hobby would not exist if it wasnt for the music (source), so we should do what we reasonably can to ensure we have the best source available.

 

[BugPowderDust]

28 minutes ago, TerryO said:

Thank you for responding, while I agree the room is one of those often overlooked parts of Hifi that is incredibly important, in this case the room is for another discussion.

Maybe, but I don't see it that way.

 

I've pivoted from running a MSB Premier DAC with Premier power supply as a DAC / streamer that runs to about $60k RRP to using a Storm Audio ISP Core 16 with Dirac Live Active Room Treatment and it's delivered far more for me than I could have ever imagined.  

 

These things (room correction, streamers, DACs) aren't mutually exclusive anymore.

[TerryO]

1 hour ago, BugPowderDust said:

Maybe, but I don't see it that way.

 

I've pivoted from running a MSB Premier DAC with Premier power supply as a DAC / streamer that runs to about $60k RRP to using a Storm Audio ISP Core 16 with Dirac Live Active Room Treatment and it's delivered far more for me than I could have ever imagined.  

 

These things (room correction, streamers, DACs) aren't mutually exclusive anymore.

A question, were/are you using a Roon based Nuc or similar into your MSB / Storm rather than a dedicated Streamer?

 

Edit: … By the way for what it is worth I have no doubt that your system sounds excellent as it is. 

 

cheers,

Terry

Edited February 14, 2024 by TerryO