Matching a Cartridge to My Arm

[GeoffRoberts]

It's time to start looking at a new cartridge, and am wondering how to choose something that will suit my arm and system? I'm currently using a Benz Micro Gold (their entry level LO MC), which I've really enjoyed. I have a Rega RB300 arm on a Micro Seiki BL-51 deck. I use an Aurealis SUT though a Croft MM valve phono. 

 

The Hana SL seems to have a very good reputation, and I've been curious about the Yamamoto carts since everything they make seems to be great, although hard to find much info on. 

 

I'm wondering though, once I've chosen a cart, how do I know work out whether it will suit my set up?

[Tasebass]

43 minutes ago, GeoffRoberts said:

 

 

I'm wondering though, once I've chosen a cart, how do I know work out whether it will suit my set up?

 

Er...you'll have a smile on your face.....and you will be listening till the wee small hours...

 

Tase

[GeoffRoberts]

 
Er...you'll have a smile on your face.....and you will be listening till the wee small hours...[emoji14]
 
Tase

Prior to purchase I meant!

Looking forward to that smile and a few laughs e nights.


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[Tasebass]

Geoff with my hand on my heart your not going to know until the system is set up properly and run in which can take some time.

 

From my experience dont be disheartened if the results are not favourable from the off...with vinyl rigs time is of the essence as equipment settles in etc improvements should start within 24-48 hours and can continue for weeks to come...even months sometimes. My Naim phono stage if powered down and moved can take upto a week before She's singing again....

 

I repeat this enough though...check check and check again. paramount to continued enjoyement IMO

 

Have fun and yes you will be having late nights....

 

Cheers Tase

[andyr]

4 hours ago, GeoffRoberts said:

It's time to start looking at a new cartridge, and am wondering how to choose something that will suit my arm and system? I'm currently using a Benz Micro Gold (their entry level LO MC), which I've really enjoyed. I have a Rega RB300 arm on a Micro Seiki BL-51 deck. I use an Aurealis SUT though a Croft MM valve phono. 

 

The Hana SL seems to have a very good reputation, and I've been curious about the Yamamoto carts since everything they make seems to be great, although hard to find much info on. 

 

I'm wondering though, once I've chosen a cart, how do I know work out whether it will suit my set up?

 

According to the tonearm database at Vinyl Engine, here:  https://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_database.php?make=Rega&mdl=&sort=2&eflo=&efhi=&ascdesc=ASC&mdlo=&mdhi=&ohlo=&ohhi=&search=search&amlo=&amhi=&cw=&mp=

 

... your RB300 has an effective weight of 11.5gm and can take carts which weigh 4 - 11 gms.

 

If you then look at the cart resonance compatibility chart here:  https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=11.5&submit=Submit

 

... you can see the range of cart weight & compliance values that are compatible with an arm of this eff. weight (the green area).

 

Then look at the cart database here:  https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php

 

... to look up these values for the carts you are interested in.

 

 

Regards,

Andy

 

[MattyW]

The Hana is a fantastic cart. The only carts I've preferred to it so far have been vintage carts:

Supex SD900 Rosewood
Koetsu Rosewood (by Sugano San Senior)
Fidelity Research FR-1 Mk3

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[Guest Hensa]

If you like the Benz sound, you could do worse than staying in their family and moving up the ladder to an Ace or Glider. I've used both in an RB300 and they are an excellent match.

 

The Hana S is another very good option, a touch dryer than the Benz sound but excellent detail and a hint of warmth.

 

The other line that would be worth looking at would be from ZYX. I run a Bloom R50 on a 12" Jelco/Garrard 401 and it sounds ridiculously good for the price.

 

If you want a cart that majors on neutrality without added warmth, the Dynavector range would be worth checking out. Not sure of your budget but the Karat 17D3 is a ripper of a cart and again, a good match for the Rega arm.

 

I'm in Sydney (Nth Shore) if you're interested in hearing some of these carts in action. Currently have a Dyna Karat 23R (predecessor of the 17D series), ZYX R50 and a Benz Wood mounted, though none currently on an RB300. Can also quickly switch in the Hana SH to the Garrard/Jelco combination and happy to have you drop over for a listen.

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Hensa

[12ax7]

You are getting to the limit of your turntable/arm.

Maybe you should consider upgrading the arm, even to something like the modestly priced Audiomods.

I have run both Koetsu Blacks and Benz Woods on RB300's and whilst they had no tracking issues, the arm certainly does not get the best performance out of these cartridges. 

[DoggieHowser]

Interestingly enough I was just googling to see if I could match my planned Acoustic Signature TA-5000 with a Kiseki Purple Heart NS.

What you need are the following

A. Effective Mass of the tonearm Tm
B. Wright of the cartridge Wc
C. Weight of screws and attaching bolts etc (estimate 0.5g)
D. Compliance of the cartridge. C

First add effective mass of system
Tm + Wc + 0.5 = Em

Take SQRT(Em x C) = X

Resonant frequency = 159/X

Ideally Resonant Frequency is between 8 and 12

Too low means warped records may affect it - about 6Hz

Too high means some musical information like church pipe organs could excite it.

In the case of the combination
TA5000 12" effective mass 14.4
Weight of Purple Heart NS 7
Compliance of Purple Heart 16

Em = 14.4 + 7 + 0.5 = 21.9

X = SQRT (21.9 x 16) = 18.72

Resonant frequency = 159/18.72 = 8.5 ok

[MattyW]

Jealous of your Kiseki dude

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[DoggieHowser]

Jealous of your Kiseki dude [emoji4]

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I haven't gotten it yet [emoji51]

I've got a Sumiko Pearwood Celebration II now with my ProJect RPM10.1 and it's lovely.

I was planning to get two tonearms for the new turntable but haven't figured out which combo yet.

I thought I'd use the Sumiko with maybe a VPI 3D but not sure if Acoustic Signature has the pattern to a VPI 3D armboard.

[MattyW]

Mmmm, I've a S.A.M Aldebaran + Calista II on the way. Looking forward to mounting a Fidelity Research FR-64S as a second arm for my Ortofon SPU and FR-7 carts. Considering a Grace G707 or G540 for high compliance MM's as a third arm.... Should be nice. I'll probably use my Supex SD900 Rosewood on the Calista II arm, a JVC X2 for the light arm.

Looking to do similar with my JVC TT-71 using a Fidelity Research FR-14 for most carts and Mayware Formula 4 for high compliance carts..... I've just a FR-54 on there presently.

Carts definitely need the right arm to sing properly.... And a decent table

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[Happy]

Hana S sounds great on Audiomods, sorta similar to Regas


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[GeoffRoberts]

On 28/05/2017 at 9:13 PM, Hensa said:

If you like the Benz sound, you could do worse than staying in their family and moving up the ladder to an Ace or Glider. I've used both in an RB300 and they are an excellent match.

 

The Hana S is another very good option, a touch dryer than the Benz sound but excellent detail and a hint of warmth.

 

The other line that would be worth looking at would be from ZYX. I run a Bloom R50 on a 12" Jelco/Garrard 401 and it sounds ridiculously good for the price.

 

If you want a cart that majors on neutrality without added warmth, the Dynavector range would be worth checking out. Not sure of your budget but the Karat 17D3 is a ripper of a cart and again, a good match for the Rega arm.

 

I'm in Sydney (Nth Shore) if you're interested in hearing some of these carts in action. Currently have a Dyna Karat 23R (predecessor of the 17D series), ZYX R50 and a Benz Wood mounted, though none currently on an RB300. Can also quickly switch in the Hana SH to the Garrard/Jelco combination and happy to have you drop over for a listen.

 

 

Thanks for the mini review. I've really enjoyed the Benz Gold, and I'd probably be very happy with their next cartridge up. When the Gold was fresh it really sounded great.

 

I'd like to keep the budget sensible, and the Hana seems to offer good value. 

 

Thanks for your offer to listen to a few, I'll take you up on that at some point. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by GeoffRoberts

[GeoffRoberts]

.

Edited May 30, 2017 by GeoffRoberts

[Owen Y]

Hi @GeoffRoberts - the Hana SL should suit the RB300 well, in terms of Effective Mass & resultant Resonant Freq (arguably better than the Benz).

 

The Hana SL has slightly higher output than the Benz, so that too, should not be a bad thing.

(Oops edit: it seems that both carts output ~0.5mvrms.)

 

Your Aurealis SUT provides a load of ~258 ohms (from a usual 47k preamp input), which was ideal for the Benz but slightly lower than recommended for the Hana SL's 30 ohm coil imped, but still OK I think (because it will still be loaded a decent >1:8 ratio).

 

So no problems technically with the Hana.

It has a Shibata stylus, which will give you the magic we expect from MCs & is reportedly made by Excel Corp, who have made carts since at least the 80s.

 

I suspect a different sound than the Benz, less lively perhaps - I have a pal who has just installed one, I will ask fior a report 

 

Cheers, Owen

http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

Edited May 30, 2017 by Owen Y

[andyr]

On 28/05/2017 at 11:55 AM, GeoffRoberts said:

 

It's time to start looking at a new cartridge, and am wondering how to choose something that will suit my arm and system? I'm currently using a Benz Micro Gold (their entry level LO MC), which I've really enjoyed. I have a Rega RB300 arm on a Micro Seiki BL-51 deck. I use an Aurealis SUT though a Croft MM valve phono. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Owen Y said:

 

Your Aurealis SUT provides a load of ~258 ohms (from a usual 47k preamp input), which was ideal for the Benz but slightly lower than recommended for the Hana SL's 30 ohm coil imped, but still OK I think (because it will still be loaded a decent >1:8 ratio).

 

 

If the Aurealis SUT delivers a 258 ohm load from the usual 47K MM phono stage loading ... it must have a 1:13.5 coil ratio.  (Divide 47,000 by the square of the turns ratio.)

 

Are you sure that 258 ohms is "ideal for the Benz Micro Gold"?  The specs that I can see say loading should be  ">200ohms".  This is 10x the cart's internal impedance - but the optimum loading may well be a lot higher than this.  (For instance both I and a mate run our Benz LPs at 4,700 ohms ... the specs say "500 - 47K".)  Geoff may well get a good increase in SQ from loading his Benz Gold at its optimal level ... rather than what he is limited to, by using a SUT.

 

You do this by using a headamp, rather than a SUT to provide the amplification.

 

Andy

 

PS:  According to the Vinyl Engine resonance calculator, the Benz Gold sits firmly in the 'green area' for the RB300 arm - so I don't think you can say the Hana will be better-matched?

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by andyr

[Guest Hensa]

33 minutes ago, andyr said:

  (For instance both I and a mate run our Benz LPs at 4,700 ohms ... the specs say "500 - 47K".) 

 

 

Andy, what happened to the 3,300 ohms that you have previously recommended for the Benz? Did the ideal loading change after your re-tip?

[andyr]

8 hours ago, Hensa said:

 

Andy, what happened to the 3,300 ohms that you have previously recommended for the Benz? Did the ideal loading change after your re-tip?

 

 

No, Greg - on a whim, I decided to up it ... and liked what I heard.  

 

Andy

 

[DoggieHowser]

On 29/05/2017 at 5:31 PM, MattyW said:

Jealous of your Kiseki dude

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Kiseki Purple Heart NS on its way  now u can be jealous. Kidding. 

 

TA5000 being built in Germany... 

 

Matched to an Acoustic Signature Thunder Mk2 also in the factory. 

 

I fondled one last year and the way the Thunder platter moves almost frictionless was (for the lack of a better word) orgasmic. You don't have to be an engineer to appreciate how well built those tables are. 

 

I have ordered a second armboard but haven't decided what arm to put on it yet. I currently have a Sumiko Pearwood Celebration II which I really really love - and was considering a VPI 3D 10.5 to mount it on. Does anyone know if the VPI 3D uses a standard mount like a Linn or Rega or SME that I can tell Acoustic Signature. 

[Owen Y]

Chaps - as you know, there 

15 hours ago, andyr said:

Are you sure that 258 ohms is "ideal for the Benz Micro Gold"? 

 

Chaps - as we all know (or should know), there is no right/wrong or black/white answer in audio  

 

If the owner/listener likes what he's hearing & the setup concurs with the manuf's recommendations, then that's.....perfect.

What we or anyone else thinks, really doesn't matter  

 

Cheers, Owen

http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

[andyr]

57 minutes ago, Owen Y said:

 

Chaps - as we all know (or should know), there is no right/wrong or black/white answer in audio  

 

If the owner/listener likes what he's hearing & the setup concurs with the manuf's recommendations, then that's.....perfect.

What we or anyone else thinks, really doesn't matter  

 

 

Absolutely correct, Owen ... except:

1. I suggest most people want to get the best sound they can (from their gear).  Hence we play around with VTF and VTA.  Loading is just as important, IMO.
2. the manuf's recommendation is open-ended.  >200 ohms could mean 47K!  (Just as my Benz specs say '500-47K'.)  Now I know that my cart sounds very different at 500 ohms and 47K ... so it seems reasonable to me that the OP's cart will also sound different, at different loading.  I am merely making the point that just because 258 ohms is ">200 ohms", doesn't mean that this loading gives the optimal sound for the cart.

 

Andy

[DoggieHowser]

1 hour ago, Owen Y said:

Chaps - as you know, there 

 

Chaps - as we all know (or should know), there is no right/wrong or black/white answer in audio  

 

If the owner/listener likes what he's hearing & the setup concurs with the manuf's recommendations, then that's.....perfect.

What we or anyone else thinks, really doesn't matter  

 

Cheers, Owen

http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

 

Sound wise - yes it is a matter of taste, but when it comes to turntables, physics matters, hence the resonant frequency calculator. You do need to check the compliance of the cart vis a vis the effective mass of the tonearm/cart combo to make sure. 

 

 

 

 

[Edd]

On 29/05/2017 at 0:25 PM, DoggieHowser said:

Interestingly enough I was just googling to see if I could match my planned Acoustic Signature TA-5000 with a Kiseki Purple Heart NS.

What you need are the following

A. Effective Mass of the tonearm Tm
B. Wright of the cartridge Wc
C. Weight of screws and attaching bolts etc (estimate 0.5g)
D. Compliance of the cartridge. C

First add effective mass of system
Tm + Wc + 0.5 = Em

Take SQRT(Em x C) = X

Resonant frequency = 159/X

Ideally Resonant Frequency is between 8 and 12

Too low means warped records may affect it - about 6Hz

Too high means some musical information like church pipe organs could excite it.

In the case of the combination
TA5000 12" effective mass 14.4
Weight of Purple Heart NS 7
Compliance of Purple Heart 16

Em = 14.4 + 7 + 0.5 = 21.9

X = SQRT (21.9 x 16) = 18.72

Resonant frequency = 159/18.72 = 8.5 ok


 

Thanks for posting this.

If the compliance is listed as 5x10-6cm/dyne at 100Hz how do you make adjustment to use in this formula?

[DoggieHowser]

No clue. But here's the source

http://www.theanalogdept.com/cartridge___arm_matching.htm