Hi-fi boss slams 'rip-off' industry

[betty boop]

44 minutes ago, crisis said:

And what corners you put your Tannoy Westminsters in...

 

id be happy with a couple of west ministers in the garage  

[Blk plastic]

Being told "yes it comes with a remote" and then two weeks later, when you're ready to pull your wallet out, to be told" the remote is $400 AUD extra",is a bit of a shitty rip off! Bad dealer form there. No names no pack drill.

[legend]

On ?5?/?23?/?2017 at 8:30 AM, Newman said:

Rod, [mention=108824]legend[/mention] , I don't believe the 1960s-1980s model is applicable today. Putting aside the sub-$1000 components, hifi has moved into a luxury goods situation. Don't think "what sells Toyotas and how do we set a price", think "what sells Bentleys".

 

I remember attending a talk by Halcro's main man, Bruce Candy, and his main marketing man, during their peak. They didn't advertise in AHF. They said they were actively advertising in 'billionaire's club' magazines, magazines that you don't know about and will never see in a newsagent because they who buy it never set foot in a newsagent. (OTOH I regret bringing up Halcro in a thread about rip-offs, because their amps were incredible physical constructions that set new benchmarks for low noise and distortion combined with high continuous peak power -- even ME amps look like something Steptoe and Son would cobble up next to a Halcro.)

 

As a luxury good, higher-priced hifi gear is definitely high-markup compared to component costs. The proof lies when you compare them to pro audio and AV gear prices. The technology (and performance) in a $3000 AV receiver makes a $3000 hifi amp look like a 1925 Austin Seven next to a 2017 Mercedes S Class. Which is ironic considering which one is sold as a luxury good. And look at studio monitors -- for $1000 each you can buy a Neumann or JBL speaker that combines low-distortion high-output drivers, waveguide, two power amps totalling 200W (real watts not marketing watts), active crossover, preamplifier, and power supply. Per channel. They even include the power cord! Don't even want to think about what the hifi industry would want to charge for such a product sold into the 2-channel audio sector if they had a free hand and no fear of competition from the pro audio sector (OK I looked -- I think the Meridian DSP3200 active bookshelves are RRP$8500?). They would want to charge $1000 for the stands, not the speakers. And when you think about it, the hifi industry has done a remarkably good job of building a 'mental wall' in the minds of their consumers to keep pro audio and AV products out of their space.

 

 

 

I think you are probably right.  Today the middle market of well engineered products at reasonable prices (given all cost factors) seems to be disappearing.  Products must either mega-cheap or have the Rolex factor (I mentioned the latter in a earlier post).  However this is perhaps as much the 'fault' of consumers as of manufacturers?

[betty boop]

8 minutes ago, legend said:

 

I think you are probably right.  Today the middle market of well engineered products at reasonable prices (given all cost factors) seems to be disappearing.  Products must either mega-cheap or have the Rolex factor (I mentioned the latter in a earlier post).  However this is perhaps as much the 'fault' of consumers as of manufacturers?

 

there are some examples. rega for instance comes immediately to mind. as i can think of many local examples.. all good honest engineering you are paying for. people are still making a profit but then we wouldn't have these products if they didnt

[legend]

yes I was grossly oversimplifying - there are good exceptions but outliers don't necessarily make a rule!

[Newman]

 

 

 

 

 

[Newman]

I would include a Rega amp in the $3000 example that I raised. A perfect example in fact. It shows how inured we have become that we would see it as an exception.

[Guest Karl Rand]

On 23 May 2017 at 7:35 PM, al said:

 

id be happy with a couple of west ministers in the garage  

I'm happy with an ancient pair of TDL tranamission line monsters in the garage but the neighbors who are two paddocks away aren't when visiting brats decide to have an informal little party. 

[Milo]

The problem I've heard from some retailers is that customers sometimes ignore a very good sounding component because they are not priced 'high enough'.  Yes that's right, I'm told customers think if it's too good for the price then they're suspicious of the product, can't be good enough.  That's how conditioned people can become to high priced = high end.  Advertising works.  You know, all those glossy pics in the magazines with drool on them (and I do mean the Hi-Fi mags guys).

 

Seems to happen more with non-mainstream brand items.  Naturally enough, the store in question discontinues stocking any item that falls into this category because it's not moving.

[Rob181]

@Milo...that story is a great marketing ploy but short on facts EXCEPT for the VERY high end market...

[Newman]

9 hours ago, Milo said:

The problem I've heard from some retailers is that customers sometimes ignore a very good sounding component because they are not priced 'high enough'.  Yes that's right, I'm told customers think if it's too good for the price then they're suspicious of the product, can't be good enough.  That's how conditioned people can become to high priced = high end.  Advertising works.  You know, all those glossy pics in the magazines with drool on them (and I do mean the Hi-Fi mags guys).

 

People allow themselves a budget and shop to that budget.

[betty boop]

9 hours ago, Milo said:

The problem I've heard from some retailers is that customers sometimes ignore a very good sounding component because they are not priced 'high enough'.  Yes that's right, I'm told customers think if it's too good for the price then they're suspicious of the product, can't be good enough.  That's how conditioned people can become to high priced = high end.  Advertising works.  You know, all those glossy pics in the magazines with drool on them (and I do mean the Hi-Fi mags guys).

 

Seems to happen more with non-mainstream brand items.  Naturally enough, the store in question discontinues stocking any item that falls into this category because it's not moving.

 

Marketteers are conscious of price points too... very aware. Hence sometimes will get something that prob belongs above but dragged back to lower price bracket as will sell in higher volume.

 

as there are those put up in a higher price bracket that likely don't belong

 

the market soon soon seems to sort that out  

 

the ones out in the lower price bracket hardly ever get discounted as they sell anyways. The ones pushed in the upper are the likely  ones getting 50% off to clear come sale time !

 

hifi is not greatly different to other items being marketed and sold

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, Rob181 said:

@Milo...that story is a great marketing ploy but short on facts EXCEPT for the VERY high end market...

 

Actually, Milo's story is bang-on. 

[potatomasher]

On 23/05/2017 at 11:46 AM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Hah! Nothing compared to one, Australian, manufacturer, who used to buy $300.00 Sony CD players, put them in a fancy stainless steel case and sell them for $4,000.00! 

I think it was a Denon.....was that a fair while ago? edit:  sorry wrong quote - I meant the reference to the rebadged Oppo  [not sure if i can delete posts.....]

Edited May 26, 2017 by potatomasher

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 minute ago, potatomasher said:

I think it was a Denon.....was that a fair while ago?

 

I'm about 70% certain it was a Sony and 30% certain it was a Pioneer. Definitely not a Denon. And yes, it was quite some time ago. Back when low end CD players were about $300.00. I worked on one and was utterly gob-smacked at the audacity of the manufacturer. 

[Wimbo]

On 5/23/2017 at 6:39 PM, crisis said:

Thankyou. This shits me so much. My room doesn't avail itself to ideal positioning but if you can afford speakers like this at least try to place them properly. I'm not OCD but this, THIS!!!!!!!

 

 

Totally agree. Total waste of money.Tens of thousands of dollars set up like that. Talk about not knowing what they are doing. Wow.

[joz]

1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

I'm about 70% certain it was a Sony and 30% certain it was a Pioneer. Definitely not a Denon. And yes, it was quite some time ago. Back when low end CD players were about $300.00. I worked on one and was utterly gob-smacked at the audacity of the manufacturer. 

 

The one I'm thinking of is an expat that did it to Pioneers?

[blybo]

4 hours ago, Newman said:

 

People allow themselves a budget and shop beyond that budget.

 

Fixed that for you

[Newman]

...then sell the lot in the subsequent divorce.   Free men excluded, dammit.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

8 minutes ago, Newman said:

...then sell the lot in the subsequent divorce.   Free men excluded, dammit.

Oh, it's budget, is it?

 

I always thought that was speaker size.

[Sir Triode]

4 hours ago, al said:

 

Marketteers are conscious of price points too... very aware. Hence sometimes will get something that prob belongs above but dragged back to lower price bracket as will sell in higher volume.

 

as there are those put up in a higher price bracket that likely don't belong

 

the market soon soon seems to sort that out  

 

the ones out in the lower price bracket hardly ever get discounted as they sell anyways. The ones pushed in the upper are the likely  ones getting 50% off to clear come sale time !

 

hifi is not greatly different to other items being marketed and sold

 

These marketteers don't happen to be named Athos, Porthos and Aramis, do they?

[t_mike]

I used to own some Westminsters, I threw them out because they chimed every 15 minutes. (The older folk will get that).

 

 

In all seriousness, speakers of that type need a large room, most likely in a large house. The budget involved is beyond most and I suspect that many items of this price bracket, audio or otherwise, are bought by people who are part of the self made wealthy demographic, and this is merely a way of showing their success. They aren't audiophiles, they just see this as "sophistication". The profiteers in marketing identify this and take advantage of it to maximise their profits. Those with the best ears, both genetically and trained, are usually full-time mastering engineers. For them equipment choice is purely financially motivated, they need the best to allow them to master to their best ability, at a price that is fair for the level of equipment. For amps and speakers, I don't think you would do yourself any harm to look at what the professional mastering studios use. It may not have the architectural flair some prefer, but it is the equipment that produced the sound that you are trying to reproduce at home.

[Newman]

24 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Oh, it's budget, is it? I always thought that was speaker size.

 

True enough. Except you can have your own room where speaker size doesn't count, but you can never have your own money.

[Guest Karl Rand]

3 hours ago, t_mike said:

 

 

 

In all seriousness, speakers of that type need a large room, most likely in a large house. The budget involved is beyond most and I suspect that many items of this price bracket, audio or otherwise, are bought by people who are part of the self made wealthy demographic, and this is merely a way of showing their success. 

There's a huge market for the big Tannoy's in Japan and China. In Japan they often end up in very small rooms but the owners appear happy. I sometimes wonder if they work better than we should expect because internal walls in many Japanese houses are made of thin paper.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Karl Rand

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

2 hours ago, Newman said:

 

True enough. Except you can have your own room where speaker size doesn't count, but you can never have your own money.

I have to live in suburban Sydney, and my partner won't move out west.

 

On the other hand I am allowed my own money!

 

Then again, if I did have my own room, it would take about a week to be completely full of someone else's books.