A general power cable discussion

[hochopeper]

If he's going to reference someone elses work as justification for seeding doubt in the minds of consumers that he's selling products to the least he could do is name the article(s) of interest.

 

At a glance it all seems like a false equivalence. I'd be interested to see/hear how his 'buddy' from Belden feels about his views being represented that way.

 

Chris

[niss_man]

20 minutes ago, hochopeper said:

If he's going to reference someone elses work as justification for seeding doubt in the minds of consumers that he's selling products to the least he could do is name the article(s) of interest.

 

At a glance it all seems like a false equivalence. I'd be interested to see/hear how his 'buddy' from Belden feels about his views being represented that way.

 

Chris

Unfortunately no links to articles by his Belden mate Galen Gareis, but there is a link to Copper Magazine’s editor, Bill Leebens articles.

[Willco]

Yes I think Mr MrGowan is smart marketer -but I'd take what he says with a grain of salt--I participated in a discussion with him on his product vs a similar from another Manufacturer--he poured forth on the poor anomaly's of the opposition and not once mentioned objectives/etc of his product.

 

[frankn]

I have previously posted the technical discussion of Belden Iconoclast cables - but the links appear corrupted.  I've attached again.  ICONOCLASTTM-SPEAKER-CABLE (5).pdfICONOCLASTTM-RCA-CABLE.pdfICONOCLASTTM-XLR-CABLE.pdf.  I've also had discussions with Galen and I know he is very passionate about cables.  From my contact with him he wouldn't have any problem with how PS Audio are referencing him - he does interact with the forum members there, and uses several of them as beta testers for the Iconoclast products.   @hochopeper you can easily contact Belden/Galen and ask him - he is very approachable.

 

 

[hochopeper]

2 hours ago, frankn said:

I have previously posted the technical discussion of Belden Iconoclast cables - but the links appear corrupted.  I've attached again.  ICONOCLASTTM-SPEAKER-CABLE (5).pdfICONOCLASTTM-RCA-CABLE.pdfICONOCLASTTM-XLR-CABLE.pdf.  I've also had discussions with Galen and I know he is very passionate about cables.  From my contact with him he wouldn't have any problem with how PS Audio are referencing him - he does interact with the forum members there, and uses several of them as beta testers for the Iconoclast products.   @hochopeper you can easily contact Belden/Galen and ask him - he is very approachable.

 

Thanks Frank. I perhaps miss-interpreted the comments from PS Audio as conflating issues with signal cables and then 'begging the question' to say well if that's the case surely power cables matter too. Now I see that their blog post wasn't related to power cables. I personally don't have a need for the information at this stage so I won't go waste his time. My system is, like many DIYers, currently in parts waiting for me to have spare time to fix an amp and finish some DSP stuff. I've got a mix of belden cables for the system and don't see any significant issues with them currently. 

 

Looking at those articles there there are lots of good details about the cables. That's all well and good, but they show nothing about how those parameters interact with the components they are connecting. Anyway they're not power cables so it's off topic for this thread.

 

3 hours ago, niss_man said:

Unfortunately no links to articles by his Belden mate Galen Gareis, but there is a link to Copper Magazine’s editor, Bill Leebens articles.

Is Copper Magazine PS Audio's corporate magazine? And on re-reading it appears to just be a comment to say there will be future articles on it, they aren't there currently. (I had a quick look at 'issue 46' and 'issue 45').

 

Chris

 

[davewantsmoore]

On 12/09/2017 at 3:43 PM, MLXXX said:

A sufficient test (some would argue the only meaningful test) would be to rub the oil on the walls and listen. If the sound is then improved for Listener A, then for Listener A the oil works. End of story.  Measurements are quite unnecessary. And blind testing of Listener A certainly unnecessary.

 

... but there's a whole gamut of reasons why listener A may report he hears a difference, which aren't related to the oil.

 

 

 

It it were possible to account for those .... then it would be helpful to do so, if we really want to know the truth about the oil.

 

[JSmith]

4 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

truth about the oil

But;

 

 

 

JSmith

[MLXXX]

5 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

... but there's a whole gamut of reasons why listener A may report he hears a difference, which aren't related to the oil.

 

 

 

It it were possible to account for those .... then it would be helpful to do so, if we really want to know the truth about the oil.

 

Of course. But many people are not prepared to do a painstaking study. They are prepared to go with initial impressions. If they think they hear an improvement, that is enough, and is the end of the story for them.

 

You did not quote the paragraph of mine that follows immediately after the one you have quoted. It provides a rather different slant:

 

I note that this is the standard of proof that is usually provided in audiophile forum debates about after-market power cables. What matters is how the power cable sounds. [Not whether there is any measured, or measurable, effect on the sound entering the listener's ears.]

[davewantsmoore]

19 hours ago, JSmith said:

But;

Maybe so.   Anything could work .....  but, alas (becuase like would be easy), simply sitting back and listening to it, ISN'T usually a good way to tell if it actually does we think it's doing or not.

 

This effect isn't limited to audio....  these are people who who study our senses, perception, etc. ....and conclude that we are extremely easily and powerfully mislead.

[DamonsHIFI]

Hey Group,

 

In regards to Steve Huffs review for the Nordost Power Cables, ( page 13 in this forum )

 

I can see where he’s coming from,

I have been lucky enough to try the Nordost Valhalla 2 & ODIN Power Cables in my own system & WOW they are shockingly good. I don’t agree about the Valhalla 2 being better, far from it.

 

I’m not agreeing that their better than spending the same money on upgrading equipment & understandably hard for anyone to believe.

 

[DamonsHIFI]

It’s fine for you to believe it’s a placebo affect for me I don’t mind.
I know what I hear and what other people have heard in my system.

Just wanted to give my point of view hearing the same cables Steve Huff spoke about, might be helpful for some of you believers

[Nigel]

Power cables :

Those who understand the blatantly obvious point (that 2m of diamond cable does nothing to compensate for the 20m of cr*p cabling in the house) should stop trying to convert those who are convinced (or trying to sell something).

It is just not worth it.

 

[Peter_F]

13 minutes ago, Nigel said:

Power cables :

Those who understand the blatantly obvious point (that 2m of diamond cable does nothing to compensate for the 20m of cr*p cabling in the house) should stop trying to convert those who are convinced (or trying to sell something).

It is just not worth it.

 

I'm not entering the debate on cables, but I've seen the cabling in my house and it's not crap, far from it. Its high quality, thick multi strand copper, far superior to any standard appliance cord or standard hifi cord. I also know that the cable coming into my house is also very high quality heavy duty copper wire.  

[Guest Hensa]

4 minutes ago, Peter_F said:

I'm not entering the debate on cables, but I've seen the cabling in my house and it's not crap, far from it. Its high quality, thick multi strand copper, far superior to any standard appliance cord or standard hifi cord. I also know that the cable coming into my house is also very high quality heavy duty copper wire.  

 

Good to know, though I'd be surprised if it costs more than $10 per metre regardless of how good it might look.

[Peter_F]

7 hours ago, Hensa said:

 

Good to know, though I'd be surprised if it costs more than $10 per metre regardless of how good it might look.

Most likely much less than $10 a metre, but then how much do 'hi-end' audio cables cost to make vs selling price?  I'd have no issue with all my audio power cables being made of the same wire used in my house.  

[Cafad]

I was a bit bored this morning so I thought I'd do some measuring.

 

Voltage at power point, 246.7V.

Voltage at the end of a home made power lead, 4m in length, 246.2V.

Voltage at the end of a power cable made by Little Blue Penguin (the power lead I have adopted as my standard), 1.5m long, 246.2V.

Voltage at the end of a kettle cord lead chosen at random from my cable box (1mm thick conductor so I chose a thicker one than standard), 1.5m long, 246.1V.

Voltage at the end of an Isotek EVO3 Initium power cord, 1.5m long, 245.2V.

 

Interesting stuff, but a bit nonsensicle as there should be no voltage drop without current flow.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

3 minutes ago, Cafad said:

I was a bit bored this morning so I thought I'd do some measuring.

 

Voltage at power point, 246.7V.

Voltage at the end of a home made power lead, 4m in length, 246.2V.

Voltage at the end of a power cable made by Little Blue Penguin (the power lead I have adopted as my standard), 1.5m long, 246.2V.

Voltage at the end of a kettle cord lead chosen at random from my cable box (1mm thick conductor so I chose a thicker one than standard), 1.5m long, 246.1V.

Voltage at the end of an Isotek EVO3 Initium power cord, 1.5m long, 245.2V.

 

Interesting stuff, but a bit nonsensicle as there should be no voltage drop without current flow.

 

Likely within measurement error, or, unless all measurements were performed simultaneously, the variations were due to those in the mains supply. 

[Cafad]

The mains seemed stable for a while initially but it was moving about later, I planned to add another cable but the voltage had dropped to 243.  Hmmm, simultaneous is an interesting idea, I do have two meters.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

21 minutes ago, Cafad said:

The mains seemed stable for a while initially but it was moving about later, I planned to add another cable but the voltage had dropped to 243.  Hmmm, simultaneous is an interesting idea, I do have two meters.

Unless they are VERY expensive, high quality meters, then accuracy between them is likely greater than the differences you are attempting to measure. Fundamentally, however, you were correct in an earlier statement, in that measuring without a suitable load is pointless. If, however, you want to remove all the errors (except those within the meter, itself), the procedure is disarming simple:

 

1) Connect the cable under test (CUT) to a suitable load. Ensure that the load it relatively constant (a big Class A amp would be ideal).

2) Measure the Voltage drop across the cable. IE: Measure from the mains supply connection to the connection within the amplifier. 

3) Perform the test several times to gain a median figure for all the cables. Each time you measure, the figure will be different, largely due to meter errors. 

 

Since the numbers you will be measuring will be in the low millivolt region, check your meter's accuracy in that area. 

 

Lastly: BE CAREFUL!

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Cafad]

Cool idea, thanks ZB.

[Ittaku]

21 hours ago, Cafad said:

I was a bit bored this morning so I thought I'd do some measuring.

 

Voltage at power point, 246.7V.

Voltage at the end of a home made power lead, 4m in length, 246.2V.

Voltage at the end of a power cable made by Little Blue Penguin (the power lead I have adopted as my standard), 1.5m long, 246.2V.

Voltage at the end of a kettle cord lead chosen at random from my cable box (1mm thick conductor so I chose a thicker one than standard), 1.5m long, 246.1V.

Voltage at the end of an Isotek EVO3 Initium power cord, 1.5m long, 245.2V.

 

Interesting stuff, but a bit nonsensicle as there should be no voltage drop without current flow.

 

The electrical resistivity of conductors is known to within an inch of their lives. It is exceptionally easy to predict the voltage drop based upon the conductor type in each cable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity

and the exact gauge of the conductor cores

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Thus drop in voltage can be predicted with extreme accuracy, and with normal power cables it is basically negligible. Skin effect is irrelevant at 50Hz as well, unless your cable is a metre thick.

 

And as ZB has said, the voltmeter accuracy you are using and the continuous power line voltage fluctuation is likely the cause of any drop in voltage you are seeing.

 

If there were any audible difference due to power cables, it would not be due to differences in resistance.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Ittaku

[Cafad]

And from what I saw yesterday any voltage drop due to the cable is going to be overwhelmed by the normal variation in line voltage since it varies by several full volts (or more) and the voltage drop due to the cord will be less than a full volt.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

22 hours ago, Cafad said:

And from what I saw yesterday any voltage drop due to the cable is going to be overwhelmed by the normal variation in line voltage since it varies by several full volts (or more) and the voltage drop due to the cord will be less than a full volt.

And this is roughly the impact on a typical SS 100 Watt/channel amplifier (Class A and valve amps will be somewhat greater):

 

Worst case power consumption will be approximately:

 

100 X 2 / 0.555 + 100 = 460 Watts @ 8 Ohms.

 

Therefore, maximum current consumption will be approximately  2 Amps. 

 

The rated current capacity of a 1mm^2 (CSA*) wire, in a cable assembly, is 10 Amps.

 

The resistance of a 1.5 Metre length of 1mm^2 is approximately 0.032 Ohms.

 

Therefore, the Votlage drop across such a cable will be: V = I X R =

 

2 X 0.032 = 0.064 Volts.

 

For 100 Watts, a DC rail Voltage of approximately 90 Volts will be required. 

 

A drop of 0.064 Volts on the mains side, will, therefor incur a drop of:

 

0.064/230 = 2.78 X 10^-4 

2.78 X 10^-4 X 90 = 0.025 Volts.

 

Therefore, the power loss will be approximately:

 

 Bugger all**

 

* CSA = Cross Sectional Area 

 

** Bugger all = 1.1 X 10^-3 Watts = 1.1 milliwatts. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Cafad]

I measured the capacitance of at the wall socket and then the capacitance of at the wall socket plus several power cables and while the wall socket (plus in wall wiring) came in at 241.3 picofarads  the various power cable results varied by less than 0.4 picofarads.   

I'm not saying that this means anything as such, just that I found something I could test and so I tested it.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Cafad

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

4 hours ago, Cafad said:

I measured the capacitance of at the wall socket and then the capacitance of at the wall socket plus several power cables and while the wall socket (plus in wall wiring) came in at 241.3 picofarads  the various power cable results varied by less than 0.4 picofarads.   

I'm not saying that this means anything as such, just that I found something I could test and so I tested it.

 

 

You were right. It means nothing (at 50Hz). Now, at 100MHz, it might be significant.