Antipodes Owners & Discussion Thread

[Jhsg]

Great - good to know. 
 

How did you sequence the upgrade? CX first then EX? 

[mr_gray]

yeah i went CX first and then EX.  i do not think it matters however and certainly zero mention in instructions.

[Jhsg]

9 hours ago, mr_gray said:

did antipodes indicate what the  update was supposed to achieve?  i did not see anything on their website about it but then i did not look too hard.

 

I asked Tony the same question and got this response:  

 

"The underlying software moves from Linux Fedora 25 to 30 so it is a significant jump. I don't know that there are any SQ improvements but overall there will be a number of software changes, enhancements and also compatibility changes." 

[mr_gray]

well i have ears and i think it sounded better in the bass area as per usual.  i also found that the screaming  on some song i hear frequently was not as strident.  so Linux Fedora 30 is my kind of OS!

[Jhsg]

Ok.... Upgrade complete... the ex took longer than the cx but it was all painless.. always makes me worry when I see lines of code though - makes me start thinking about backup music options in case something goes wrong and the unit becomes a glorified door stop..

 

Unfortunately have to work now to raise more money for hifi.. will do a listening test later to see if there’s any SQ improvement. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Jhsg

[mr_gray]

thanks for the tips on the upgrade Jhsg and good luck with beefing up your usb cable fund.

[Whites]

17 hours ago, Jhsg said:

Thanks mate.
 

I’ve attached the guide to installing 2.8. Tony emailed to me earlier today 

How to Upgrade toVersion28_201201104.pdf 81.65 kB · 7 downloads

Thanks for posting the instructions @Jhsg

 

Just updated my software, will see if I hear any difference tonight.

 

 

[Jhsg]

Just had a listen while eating lunch.. 

 

Caveats - Early days & no warm up time for my amp... I am not sure if there is any SQ improvement in my system on 2.8. I thought for a second the high range is a little more extended but unsure. One thing I did notice is the roon remote on my iphone seems to work quicker now which is nice. 

 

Will continue to listen and report back. 

[Jhsg]

Got my venom usb today. First impressions are very positive. Sounds excellent and punching well about it’s price point. 

[richardloh]

On 12/10/2020 at 6:13 PM, Stereophilus said:

If you guys are interested in the network connectivity upstream of the CX, @dbastin has started some good topics on the many potential upgrades you could look at.

 

I can’t recommend the local wifi option placed near the CX, as wifi devices near audio equipment, in my experience, degrade audio quality significantly.  Best to stick to wired connections for speed, reliability, and sound quality.  The best solution where possible (again, my opinion only) is to connect modem to a router that has an optical port.  Run optical fibre from your router to a network switch located near your hifi.  The switch will also need a port that accepts optical fibre.  Then run as short as possible high quality cat 7 or 8 Ethernet cable from the switch to the CX. 
 

Optical fibre is optional, but makes a difference to me.  If you prefer not to use it, just run a long run of Ethernet cable from router to switch.  Power the switch with a high quality LPS for further small gains if you wish.

 

 

 

 

Hi Stereophilus,

 

Cx is now directly fed by cheap used Airties 4920 mesh node powered by zerozone 12v lps.

 

The yellow colored chinese ofc cat 8 ethernet cable is obviously better .. bodied and detailed .. compared to the meicord I bought and the Antipodes stock one.

 

No more switch and/or concerns on corruption from other data traffic and perhaps even almost total isolation ?

 

Most importantly, it sounds better.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard 

 

PS: just placed order for 2pcs of 0.5m chinese cat 8 ofc ethernet cables at sgd80+  ..  cannot recommend this enough.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by richardloh

[dbastin]

I think you are on the right track.

 

I am reaching the conclusion that an excellent typology for ethernet for audio is to insert some form of isolation before each network device.  For example ...

 

Nbn box - isolation - router - isolation - server - isolation - renderer/player.

 

Isolation can be:

 

- Inline isolator (eg. Jcat, Acoustic Revive)

- Wifi

- Fibre

- Gigafoil/Fibre Box

- Uptone EtherRegen MOAT

 

When I used wifi I was surprised how much better than Cat5e UTP is was., and then I tried Wireworld Starlight CAT 8 instead and realised the wifi I used was crap even with very good LPS.  Then Wireworld Platinum was oh so much better again.  The rest is history. Its a slippery addictive slope into this rabbit warren.  

 

So also use cables that:

 

- Reject noise (eg. Sheilding)

- Absorb noise or route noise to ground plane

 

And if not designed for audio, keep cables very short (ie. 50cm or less) especial between isolator and next device.

 

For interest I stumbled across this ...

https://nandeaudio.com/product/fiber-box/

 

[Stereophilus]

3 hours ago, richardloh said:

 

Hi Stereophilus,

 

Cx is now directly fed by cheap used Airties 4920 mesh node powered by zerozone 12v lps.

 

The yellow colored chinese ofc cat 8 ethernet cable is obviously better .. bodied and detailed .. compared to the meicord I bought and the Antipodes stock one.

 

No more switch and/or concerns on corruption from other data traffic and perhaps even almost total isolation ?

 

Most important, it sounds better.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard 

 

PS: just placed order for 2pcs of 0.5m chinese cat 8 ofc ethernet cables at sgd80+  ..  cannot recommend this enough.

 

 

 

 

I’m trying out some of that yellow cat 8 cable at the moment.  I also have AQ cinnamon, AQ Diamond (on loan) and Supra cat8 (with telegartner plugs).  Fortunately for me, I still can’t tell any difference between them, in my system.

[richardloh]

4 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

I’m trying out some of that yellow cat 8 cable at the moment.  I also have AQ cinnamon, AQ Diamond (on loan) and Supra cat8 (with telegartner plugs).  Fortunately for me, I still can’t tell any difference between them, in my system.

 

Hi Stereophilus,

 

No difference is a good thing .. save $.

 

But  my case is worse, spent more on the meicord and stock Antipodes one and both are worse  than cheaper chinese yellow ofc cat 8 one and it is very obvious

 

But as with cabling, it is all about matching and hence hesitant to try those mega buck ones.

 

It is rj45 i2s vs hmdi i2s use case but the yellow ofc cat 8 is of same SQ level if not better sounding than usd500+ pure silver revelation audio hdmi i2s when AB via the Avatar to the Tetminator Plus in my system.

 

Please let me know the outcome when you had tried the china yellow ofc cat 8 cable against those mentioned ones that you have on hand.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

Edited November 14, 2020 by richardloh

[richardloh]

5 hours ago, dbastin said:

I think you are on the right track.

 

I am reaching the conclusion that an excellent typology for ethernet for audio is to insert some form of isolation before each network device.  For example ...

 

Nbn box - isolation - router - isolation - server - isolation - renderer/player.

 

Isolation can be:

 

- Inline isolator (eg. Jcat, Acoustic Revive)

- Wifi

- Fibre

- Gigafoil/Fibre Box

- Uptone EtherRegen MOAT

 

When I used wifi I was surprised how much better than Cat5e UTP is was., and then I tried Wireworld Starlight CAT 8 instead and realised the wifi I used was crap even with very good LPS.  Then Wireworld Platinum was oh so much better again.  The rest is history. Its a slippery addictive slope into this rabbit warren.  

 

So also use cables that:

 

- Reject noise (eg. Sheilding)

- Absorb noise or route noise to ground plane

 

And if not designed for audio, keep cables very short (ie. 50cm or less) especial between isolator and next device.

 

For interest I stumbled across this ...

https://nandeaudio.com/product/fiber-box/

 

 

Hi dbastin,

 

Do you mean direct Worldwire Platinium from router to your cx/ex instead of wireless via the Airties in my case ?

 

You will then need some "isolation" between router and your cx/ex i.e. as well as 2x Worldwire Platinium cables ?

 

I do wish to avoid any added components and more cables  and I do have the supra cat 8 to try router to the cx/ex ...

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

Edited November 14, 2020 by richardloh

[dbastin]

3 hours ago, richardloh said:

Do you mean direct Worldwire Platinium from router to your cx/ex instead of wireless via the Airties in my case ?

 

At the time, I had ...

 

router > many metres Cat 5e UTP > wall outlet > Cat 5e UTP > switch/wifi access point > wifi > Devialet endpoint 

 

I replaced the underlined connections with Wireworld Starlight, and then Wire world Platinum.  That was a turning point because the 2 Wireworld cables are the same except Platinum is solid silver conductors rather than silver plated copper - but Platinum sounded so much better.  What the?

 

I have since discovered much better cables than WW Platinum, moved the Platinum upstream, and that isolation (cable > isolator > cable) makes a considerable difference too.

[richardloh]

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

 

At the time, I had ...

 

router > many metres Cat 5e UTP > wall outlet > Cat 5e UTP > switch/wifi access point > wifi > Devialet endpoint 

 

 

 

I replaced the underlined connections with Wireworld Starlight, and then Wire world Platinum.  That was a turning point because the 2 Wireworld cables are the same except Platinum is solid silver conductors rather than silver plated copper - but Platinum sounded so much better.  What the?

 

I have since discovered much better cables than WW Platinum, moved the Platinum upstream, and that isolation (cable > isolator > cable) makes a considerable difference too.

 

router > WW Platinium > wifi mesh node/access point > wifi mesh node/access point > WW non-Platinium > Devialet endpoint 

 

Hi dbastin,

 

Would the above be an option to try and eliminate the "many" metres of cat5e utp ? 

 

Andno more switch like this one:

 

https://jcat.eu/product/m12-switch-gold/

 

These mesh nodes are cheap and in my case of cheap used airties 4920, I swapped the single chinese Aishi 470uF 25v with reknown Panasonic fm ones for sgd1 each while it seems the clock to be already higher grade 20 ppm ones ... not sure which part of ckt is the new Panasonic fm caps are for but cannot be bad thing.

 

This reminded me to also employ one of the china yellow cat8 ofc from my router to the airties mesh node which is now with stock computer aka sgd2 ones ... both powered by the latest zerozone lps I bought.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by richardloh

[dbastin]

10 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

Fortunately for me, I still can’t tell any difference between them, in my system.

Yes, you are fortunate indeed in that you have the resources to own an integrated renderer/DAC/Pre that is so good it seems largely immune to the quality of ethernet cables.  I recall you had similar experience with USB using IsoRegen, until you decided to supersede USB by  integrating the renderer/DAC into the Makua Pre.  Perhaps evidence of getting what you paid for.

 

My Devialet Pro includes amplification and DSP functionality as well as renderer/DAC/Pre but retails for about half the retail of a Makua.  And even with the thousands I've expended on ethernet gear, still not close.

 

This highlights the potential differences between systems.  At one end of the spectrum are systems that have limited ability to reveal ethernet improvements, and at the other end gear that is super revealing but engineered such that ethernet quality largely is irrelevant.  And in between is why there is a wide range of options (cables and devices) on offer to match up with the wide range systems.  And so we experiment to find the illusive perfect match for our ever changing systems.

 

1 hour ago, richardloh said:

router > WW Platinium > wifi mesh node/access point > wifi mesh node/access point > WW non-Platinium > Devialet endpoint 

 

Would the above be an option to try and eliminate the "many" metres of cat5e utp ? 

 

Most with experience in this are of the opinion wifi is the worst option.  And that was the case for me too.

 

I intend to insert fibre to supercede the Cat5e as per...

 

nbn box > media converter > fibre > router > ...

 

My router is now part of my hifi, with high grade LPS and power cord, power conditioning, ground, etc, each providing incremental improvements.

[richardloh]

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Yes, you are fortunate indeed in that you have the resources to own an integrated renderer/DAC/Pre that is so good it seems largely immune to the quality of ethernet cables.  I recall you had similar experience with USB using IsoRegen, until you decided to supersede USB by  integrating the renderer/DAC into the Makua Pre.  Perhaps evidence of getting what you paid for.

 

My Devialet Pro includes amplification and DSP functionality as well as renderer/DAC/Pre but retails for about half the retail of a Makua.  And even with the thousands I've expended on ethernet gear, still not close.

 

This highlights the potential differences between systems.  At one end of the spectrum are systems that have limited ability to reveal ethernet improvements, and at the other end gear that is super revealing but engineered such that ethernet quality largely is irrelevant.  And in between is why there is a wide range of options (cables and devices) on offer to match up with the wide range systems.  And so we experiment to find the illusive perfect match for our ever changing systems.

 

 

Most with experience in this are of the opinion wifi is the worst option.  And that was the case for me too.

 

I intend to insert fibre to supercede the Cat5e as per...

 

nbn box > media converter > fibre > router > ...

 

My router is now part of my hifi, with high grade LPS and power cord, power conditioning, ground, etc, each providing incremental improvements.

 

Hi dbastin,

 

Not sure what is a nbn box but my isp is already fiber directly into a ONR or optical network router which I connect the 1st mesh node to:

 

External fiber > ONR > airties mesh node > airties mesh node > cx+ex ... all powered by zerozone lps.

 

The 25m supra cat8 should "burnt in" after about 2 weeks of being connected from another airties mesh node to cable box to tv in my master bedroom ... having transferred much more data since video and not only audio.

 

Will try out and see if worth the effort to run it permanently into the false ceiling from the ONR router to the cx+ex but guess no more discussed isolation ... though no wish to spend on additional isolator with added dc power as well as more externet cables.

 

Fingercrossed then but hopeful as some old dunno cat what cable did sounded better than previous connection to common switch to airties mesh node  for living room tv, nas etc. .... and not current dedicated mesh node for the cx+ex.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

Edited November 14, 2020 by richardloh

[richardloh]

Hi dbastin,

 

Passed midnight and decide best time to audition ... hooked up the 25m supra cat8 cable.

 

Initial finding was that it was certainly no worse than via the airties mesh nodes .. more 3D and detailed.   However, further audition revealed that it was dull and in fact more flat ... it was not easy to AB as this is streaming and changeover is not immediate with lapse of quite a few seconds.

 

Will hold any permanent fixing of the 25m supra cat8 as it is with non preferred visible trunking ... to audition further by me and others but not convinced it is an improvement at this juncture.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by richardloh

[richardloh]

Hi,

 

More audition and still no love for the wired connection by supra cat 8 cable

 

In comparison to wifi airties mesh node, it is just more dull, flat and obvious loss of dynamics.

 

Last ditch effort to have my wife to do an AB blind test with me swapping cables and 2-3 lost connections without actually swapping but she got it 5/5 on preferred wifi airties mesh node as I do.

 

Wasted aud360 in my use case of this well reviewed 25m supra cat8 cable and pls pm me with your offer if interested.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

PS: photo of supra cat 8 in original packaging ready for shipping to its new owner 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by richardloh

[dbastin]

7 hours ago, richardloh said:

Initial finding was that it was certainly no worse than via the airties mesh nodes .. more 3D and detailed.   However, further audition revealed that it was dull and in fact more flat

 

6 hours ago, richardloh said:

In comparison to wifi airties mesh node, it is just more dull, flat and obvious loss of dynamics

That is interesting and now we are straying from the topic of this thread.

 

Firstly, this is subjective, personal perceptions and values.  Your experience of dull could be that you prefer the perceived liveliness that noise adds.  It may take a while to become accustomed to and appreciate a lower noise floor.  I suggest try this:

 

1st get some music playing, for instance a favourite play list, then disconnect the ethernet from the CX ... and just casually enjoy that.  Maybe do that for a few different listening sessions.  This is a benchmark.

 

Then try the Supra again, but unravell the coil - coiled up cable may affect its electrical performance, and SQ.

 

Use the same play list, and do it more than once.  Then do some critical listening.

 

Then try the mesh nodes.  

 

Listen for these tell tales I have noticed most.

 

Bass definition and extension.  I am still amazed how improved this is in my system.  It is most obvious at low volume when it was previously inaudible.

 Not only do bass instruments sound more lifelike, but there will be a greater sense of the volume of the recording venue (or more likely the effects used in recording to give that perception).

 

Listen to chimes, bells and cymbals.  The endless decay into the blackness, the clarity and purity of the tones, and the complexity of the resonances, overtones, harmonics.  

 

Then vocals, particularly female.  Siblences of Ss how natural do they sound?  How much or little rasp in the vocals? How pure does the voice sound?  Does it breakup - lose clarity and purity?

 

How do you feel? Is the music emerging from blackness?  Is there a sense of calm and relaxation? Even in exciting energetic passages of music?

 

There will be lots of other things to notice improvements of, but these are KPIs.

 

The ethernet between CX and EX could also be a limitation to experiencing these KPIs. And of course the rest of the system, particularly power source, conditioning and cables.

 

Incidentally, when I refer to nbn connection box, that is the nbn device that terminates the nbn fibre or coax ... that you plug your router into.  I gather you call this ONR.

[richardloh]

Hi dbastin,

 

Oops ... did not realised offtopic but it is all about our experience here on antipodes and in this case it was about my attempt to get streaming music ?

 

Indeed all about subjective and personal perceptions and value but oh no, I can tell difference of noise from lower noise floor and mentioned dullness, details, loss of dynamic etc as well as appreciates you mentioned bass definition aka body, tonality aka lifelike of midrange, extensions especially of chimes, bells and cymbals etc.  I had been into car audio for the last 15 years which near field listening and tuning means I am very sensitive to all these mentioned "KPIs" and being a physic honour graduate also means it is not difficult for me to fully appreciates as well as understands what you are sharing ... hope this does not sound challenging but let's get this behind us and have no further doubt. 

 

BTW, my current 3 year old forester xt is equipped with 2x steg masterstroke class A, 2X steg masterstroke msk1500, MicroPrecision Z series 3 way front speaker system with all drivers in customised box, Helix dsp  pro mk2, allo digione signature powered by ifi iusb3.0, Ideon 3R regen for usb from android HU powered by more lps, 2X odyssey batteries as reservoirs etc. and do amp gain matching, employ real time analyzer aka RTA etc. but this will really be off topic.

 

Indeed supra cat 8 being coiled up may have its negative effect but I frankly doubt of any significance and will nevertheless try since again, it is bought and available without any speculation but easily done.  I had also wished that hardwired instead of wifi mesh nodes and hence this attempt but unfortunately not the case so far.

 

As for playback and playlist to judge, I may have not been clear on my this ethernet attempt on only streaming and not audio files and storage.  For audio file playback, I only rely on the best route as recommended by Antipodes of internal 2X 4TB SSDs installed in the CX as server with the 2X10TB Synology NAS purely for backup only.  Painfully but gladly added the sgd2k cost for the 2X 4TB SSDs to avoid the need, doubt and endless debate as well as endless mindblogging $ on various ethernet cables, switches, lps etc. As such, my finding and sharing here is really only on streaming from full flac internet radio stations only like Hi0nline, F3, JB Radio, Rondo Classical etc. and not listening to spotify, tidal etc. which to me are of lesser sound quality.  You can now imagine that I will never have the same music being repeated in the last night's AB audition by both myself and my wife and the lost connections mean that it is not as definitive but we both have no doubt that streaming from these full flac radio stations sounded better on the wifi airties than hardwired supra cat 8 cable ... ymmv.

 

BTW, I believe my ONR is not your NBN as I do not have to add any further cables or lps like you are seemingly doing so to your downstream router ... ONR is optical network router where external fiber connects to and itself is a router where I simply plug in the Supra cat 8 or the cable to the first Airties mesh node to transmit and both my ONR and Airties are already 12v powered by the Zerozone lps.

 

Hope this clarifies albeit not to your expected finding of wired vs wifi solution for streaming but glad I tried and know for myself in my current system and setup to stop wondering and enjoy listening to more music.

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by richardloh

[Stereophilus]

13 hours ago, dbastin said:

Yes, you are fortunate indeed in that you have the resources to own an integrated renderer/DAC/Pre that is so good it seems largely immune to the quality of ethernet cables.  I recall you had similar experience with USB using IsoRegen, until you decided to supersede USB by  integrating the renderer/DAC into the Makua Pre.  Perhaps evidence of getting what you paid for.

 

My Devialet Pro includes amplification and DSP functionality as well as renderer/DAC/Pre but retails for about half the retail of a Makua.  And even with the thousands I've expended on ethernet gear, still not close.

 

This highlights the potential differences between systems.  At one end of the spectrum are systems that have limited ability to reveal ethernet improvements, and at the other end gear that is super revealing but engineered such that ethernet quality largely is irrelevant.  And in between is why there is a wide range of options (cables and devices) on offer to match up with the wide range systems.  And so we experiment to find the illusive perfect match for our ever changing systems.

The USB input on the Makua, even with CX + EX upstream seemed sensitive to the ISO-Regen and USB cables.  I believe this was in part due the USB module in the Makua, which required the 5V DC in the USB intact.  The Ethernet streaming input has been designed uniquely to reject the effects of Ethernet line noise, using a form of common mode noise rejection, and uses I2S directly into the DAC via an extremely short and well shielded conductor.

 

Not many companies design the streamer and the DAC in this way, although Auralic and dCS are good examples of similar design.

 

As streaming becomes more and more common place in hi-end systems, I suspect there will be greater immunity to upstream effects of Ethernet cables and switches as streamers improve.

[ikhuong]

Hi Antipodes owners,

Do you think it is worth to upgrade from custom built server with EtherRegen in the middle to Antipodes K40 with dedicated ethernet port to streamer? my current setup: custom- built server  (ethernet) -> netgear xr700   (ethernet) -> Sonore optical module (fiber) ->  Etherregen -> (ethernet) MSB network renderer 

 

my current skeptics  are on fiber implementation at the last mile before streamer should eliminate all current leakage/unwanted noise, so the only drawback music server’s clocks but data package has been buffered at the streamer and should not be a concern . investing a state of art music server would be a waste on its very expensive linear power supply design. I understand the music server clock would be an advantage But anything else might not be in my book?

 

in my opinion, the direct ethernet out from Antipodes is unique and  a completely different approach with folks in US brands such as MSB, Sonore, Small Green Computers who have been trying to implement fiber optics to make whatever upstream to become no matter, both solution have gained respectable improvement and might become personal preference on tweaking results.
 

 

thanks for sharing and opinions,

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by ikhuong

[Further]

Kevin,

 

I intend to home audition the K40 by late this month and very much interested in the questions you bring up.  I do have an Etherregen converting copper from a Netgear GS108 to "B" side of the Etherregen and fiber out from "A" side to optical fiber input on my Lumin X1.  This has worked well.  I have mused on adding a Sonore opticalModule or anothe Etherregen and continuing running fiber to an Etherregen to then convert from fiber to a short RJ45 cable to the K40 and another short copper cable from the K40 to the Lumin X1.  Alternatively, I could rearrange ( with some challenges) my current setup to have Etherregen much closer to the upcoming K40 location.  Uptone Audio highly recommends positioning the Etherregen close to unit receiving copper output from the unit.  Lastly, I could avoid using the filtered direct output from the K40 and instead rely on copper input/output from the GS108 to the K40 and allow the current fiber optic output from the Etherregn to the Lumin X1.  I suspect the latter would be the least effective, but this is purely a guess.  I am loathe to throw money at additional Etherregen or an opticalModule without even testing and hearing the K40 with current equipment.  Since the X1 is really a network player DAC with ethernet inputs, the K40 appears to be a good match.  I suspect an additional filtering converter would be beneficial but unless I pursue the current existing equipment first, I will not have a baseline.  Hopefully, I will be patient enough to breakin the K40 before adding additional, but my record in the past on this type thing often shows me getting caught up in the excitement sooner than later.