Building the ideal(ish) Music Server

[acg]

My dac has its own internal power supplies for the USB - I2S and the computer also has two LPS for the PCIe-USB card, although it all works just fine when the PCIe card is powered solely from the PCIe slot.  The playback software is Windows.

Edited September 1, 2015 by acg

[Guest myrantz]

There are a number of ways that various dacs use the USB 5V power line.  Some, like my dac, do not use it at all at any stage and you can even remove the wire from the cable and everything works fine.  Some others use the 5V for the initial USB handshake when the computer/dac is turned on.  Other dacs use the USB 5V in its entirety and are very susceptible to the quality of the USB supply.  

 

This is probably another reason why the SoTM/PPA cards ended up doing nothing for me...their efforts with 5V power in the USB cable were of no consequence for my dac.

And that's becoz you have tried feeding your own 5V (not just any 5V though, 5V from a quality PSU the likes that were used in the GTG?)

 

As for the no consequence, has it been collaborated (in person by other people, not just posts on an internet forum)? Not throwing an accusation finger, just interested to know really as something PeterSt said before made me very interested in what he's doing (just never had the chance to try 'em yet)...

 

Also, do you actually have a graphics card fitted in your PC? (I think the motherboard and the Xenon chip you're using don't have any embedded graphics, so am curious to know if that setup can boot up without a graphics card).. Or you simply plug in a graphics card for posting, but don't have a monitor connected?

 

[AccuTidal]

My dac has its own internal power supplies for the USB - I2S and the computer also has two LPS for the PCIe-USB card, although it all works just fine when the PCIe card is powered solely from the PCIe slot. The playback software is Windows.

That's saying it is still requiring 5vdc to complied to USB protocol. Nonetheless, communication between DAC and the USB to I2S are I2S protocol. Are you saying that 5vdc from I2S is also using to supply you USB interface? If that is the case, you are contaminate your i2s with dirty emf and others' crap from upstream.

Seriously Ant, can you post a couple photos of your DAC? I am struggling with the logic here! [emoji20]

[acg]

And that's becoz you have tried feeding your own 5V (not just any 5V though, 5V from a quality PSU the likes that were used in the GTG?)

 

 

At the time that I owned both the SoTM and PPA cards I did play with a good LPS to feed the cards and I picked the PPA as the better in my setup and sold the SoTM.  I kept the PPA for a good while and played with changing a few things on the card that did make further improvements, but then I got the cheap Silverstone card and once it was sorted out I never turned back and sold the PPA card.  That is my history with those cards.

 

 

As for the no consequence, has it been collaborated (in person by other people, not just posts on an internet forum)? Not throwing an accusation finger, just interested to know really as something PeterSt said before made me very interested in what he's doing (just never had the chance to try 'em yet)...

 

Yes, it has been collaborated by other people, but not sitting in my room with me as far as I can recall, unless you include my mate Dave who is not an audiophile (but loves music and has an audiophile system). The Phasure forum has a like-minded group that tests these things out and tends to reach a general consensus given that we all have the same dac and almost identical computers.  The Adnaco optical units (which I have also had here) were already sorted (and thrown) out before I started there, and we worked through the SotM and PPA cards as well.  Most people there use the Silverstone card now with its ground lifted from the PC chassis.

 

 

 

Also, do you actually have a graphics card fitted in your PC? (I think the motherboard and the Xenon chip you're using don't have any embedded graphics, so am curious to know if that setup can boot up without a graphics card).. Or you simply plug in a graphics card for posting, but don't have a monitor connected?

 

 

Yep, I don't have a graphics card in my computer at all and it posts just fine.  Here is a photo of the graphics card sitting across my iPad that is logged onto my audioPC running XXHE.  I took it just now.

 

[Guest myrantz]

Yep, I don't have a graphics card in my computer at all and it posts just fine.  Here is a photo of the graphics card sitting across my iPad that is logged onto my audioPC running XXHE.  I took it just now.

 

Graphic Card and XXHE RemotePC.jpg

That is fantastic.. Been waiting for 'em to do this for a while now.. What's the brand and model of the motherboard you're using? I'd like to get that for my next server setup as I need to run it headless..

 

Yes, it has been collaborated by other people, but not sitting in my room with me as far as I can recall, unless you include my mate Dave who is not an audiophile (but loves music and has an audiophile system). The Phasure forum has a like-minded group that tests these things out and tends to reach a general consensus given that we all have the same dac and almost identical computers.  The Adnaco optical units (which I have also had here) were already sorted (and thrown) out before I started there, and we worked through the SotM and PPA cards as well.  Most people there use the Silverstone card now with its ground lifted from the PC chassis.

That is a big problem really as while people may agree or disagree on the internet, they may well not be sharing the same experience... But anyway to each his own.

 

@@Chanh, interested to try that silverstone mod? 

 

I'm assuming lifting the ground = blocking out all the ground pins on the PCI connector? Plus possibility removing the PCI bracket so that there is no metal touching anything, and then ground is referenced from elsewhere? Not sure how it's done but if you can provide some instructions (and pics), hopefully @@Chanh is game enough to try it...  Do it do it do it.

Edited September 1, 2015 by myrantz

[acg]

That's saying it is still requiring 5vdc to complied to USB protocol. Nonetheless, communication between DAC and the USB to I2S are I2S protocol. Are you saying that 5vdc from I2S is also using to supply you USB interface? If that is the case, you are contaminate your i2s with dirty emf and others' crap from upstream.

Seriously Ant, can you post a couple photos of your DAC? I am struggling with the logic here! [emoji20]

 

That's saying it is still requiring 5vdc to complied to USB protocol. Nonetheless, communication between DAC and the USB to I2S are I2S protocol. 

 

Yes, 5V is required at each end of the USB cable, but the cable does not have to carry the voltage because it is redundant in my (and others) situations.  I once had a very good and quite expensive two leg USB cable in which one leg carried the 5V power and the other leg carried the signal and return.  I did not have to plug in the power leg of the cable for the computer and my dac to synchronise and start talking to each other, which means that in this situation that line can be completely removed from the cable itself.  There are people that have experimented with removing this line entirely but I can't recall if it made any difference or not.

 

 

Are you saying that 5vdc from I2S is also using to supply you USB interface? If that is the case, you are contaminate your i2s with dirty emf and others' crap from upstream.

Seriously Ant, can you post a couple photos of your DAC? I am struggling with the logic here! [emoji20]

 

I am not sure of the exact wiring of the power supplies in the USB-I2S interface, but I could probably pop off the lid for a look.  Remember also that all of our audio gear is connected to each other and to your fridge and pool pump and that of the entire neighbourhood via the ground wire of our mains supply, and this is the real problem.  The interesting thing about the USB solution in my dac is that it does not employ any form of galvanic isolation or XMOS chip because they both degrade the sound.  PeterSt (the developer) has spent an inordinate amount of time getting this USB-I2S interface right and it is his intellectual property so I will not post any photos.

[acg]

That is fantastic.. Been waiting for 'em to do this for a while now.. What's the brand and model of the motherboard you're using? I'd like to get that for my next server setup as I need to run it headless..

 

 

I don't think that you can get my motherboard any more.  It is an Asrock X79 Xtreme 4-M.

 

 

 

@@Chanh, interested to try that silverstone mod? 

 

I'm assuming lifting the ground = blocking out all the ground pins on the PCI connector? Plus possibility removing the PCI bracket so that there is no metal touching anything, and then ground is referenced from elsewhere? Not sure how it's done but if you can provide some instructions (and pics), hopefully @@Chanh is game enough to try it...  Do it do it do it.

 

Lifting the ground involves removing all conductive contact between the USB card and the chassis of the computer.  I have experimented with cutting grounds between the card and the PCIe slot, but eventually it gets a bit flakey regarding susceptibility to EMI/RFI and general static events (i.e. old flouro lighting bollards) and losing USB lock so I don't advise going down that path.  So remove the card from chassis ground but leave it sitting in the PCIe slot just as normal.  The tweak is all about forcing ground loops between components to go where we want them to go, so experimentation here can be done in combination with other efforts such as lifting PE on the dac or messing with cable shields and grounding.  It is something that I think will be trial and error for each system and what works for me will not necessarily work for you.

Edited September 1, 2015 by acg

[AccuTidal]

I am not sure of the exact wiring of the power supplies in the USB-I2S interface, but I could probably pop off the lid for a look. Remember also that all of our audio gear is connected to each other and to your fridge and pool pump and that of the entire neighbourhood via the ground wire of our mains supply, and this is the real problem. The interesting thing about the USB solution in my dac is that it does not employ any form of galvanic isolation or XMOS chip because they both degrade the sound. PeterSt (the developer) has spent an inordinate amount of time getting this USB-I2S interface right and it is his intellectual property so I will not post any photos.

Sounding like you weren't sure yourself and are relying on the non-scholar information via WWW. Ok, I will shoot an email to PeterST in Holland myself with this developments.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Chanh

[acg]

Sounding like you weren't sure yourself and are relying on the non-scholar information via WWW. Ok, I will shoot an email to PeterST in Holland myself with this developments.

 

I knew the old NOS1 back to front, but the upgrade to NOS1a came with a gazillion new power supplies and I have not really re-familiarised myself as yet.

 

Shoot PeterSt an email and tell him about this thread and he might drop in and answer your questions right here.

Edited September 1, 2015 by acg

[davewantsmoore]

there is a general belief amongst the proponents of i2s that noise levels would be lower

 

Sorry, I'm not clear on what you mean.    Noise levels of what?

Edited September 1, 2015 by davewantsmoore

[davewantsmoore]

Yep, I don't have a graphics card in my computer at all and it posts just fine. 

 

You must have a display adapter of some form in your computer.    If you don't have a "card", then it will be built into either the motherboard or the CPU.

[acg]

You must have a display adapter of some form in your computer.    If you don't have a "card", then it will be built into either the motherboard or the CPU.

 

No graphics card nor gpu as part of the Xeon processor.  I am not sure about the mobo but I did put a link to it earlier so maybe there is some info there.

[TP1]

Sorry, I'm not clear on what you mean.    Noise levels of what?

 

I'm not too sure     but I recall  some discussions on Computer Audiophile praising the virtues of i2s  along  those lines. I am not fussed about it myself because the chances of  compatibility between different brands of equipment is not particularly high at the moment.  In China there are a number of devices they call "Digital Turntables" that have purpose built PCB's and i2s output for the price of a pink faun i2s card like this one.  Might be interesting.

 

 

 

[kukynas]

heeeey Shinrico D3 and D3S  

[davewantsmoore]

No graphics card nor gpu as part of the Xeon processor.  I am not sure about the mobo but I did put a link to it earlier so maybe there is some info there.

 

Just had a look...  appears to be no display connector on mobo.

 

If you were going to connect a display to your computer.   Where would it plug in?   (eg.   where is the VGA or DVI or HDMI socket?) ....  that will hint at what sort of display adapter is in the computer.

[Guest myrantz]

Lifting the ground involves removing all conductive contact between the USB card and the chassis of the computer.  I have experimented with cutting grounds between the card and the PCIe slot, but eventually it gets a bit flakey regarding susceptibility to EMI/RFI and general static events (i.e. old flouro lighting bollards) and losing USB lock so I don't advise going down that path.  So remove the card from chassis ground but leave it sitting in the PCIe slot just as normal.  The tweak is all about forcing ground loops between components to go where we want them to go, so experimentation here can be done in combination with other efforts such as lifting PE on the dac or messing with cable shields and grounding.  It is something that I think will be trial and error for each system and what works for me will not necessarily work for you.

Not sure if this mod is supposed to do anything..

 

If you use a multi meter and set to continuity mode, tap PIN3 of the PCI-e bus pin with the exposed metal (conductive) surface, and it will beep. Do the same with the ground beeps on the molex, and the same happens.

 

Chassis ground is earth, so if you tap any exposed metal on your chassis with the earth pin of your PSU, it would beep again.

 

If it doesn't happen in your case,, then it likely means you did this deliberately by choice (e.g. use plastic standoffs instead of brass, and you remove all brackets from interface cards)... Doing so will mean your PC no longer pass the FCC requirements, and in theory at least if you use un shielded RCA cables, your system should pick up interference from this PC.. Any SQ pro/con aside, if your chassis is not earthed, then it's a electrical hazard.

 

Depending on your power supply and DAC, it may well try to draw more than 5V too.

 

Having said all that, nothing ventured, nothing gained.. If chanh or Tasso is interested, I have a spare $20 USB card for 'em to try.. 

[acg]

Just had a look...  appears to be no display connector on mobo.

 

If you were going to connect a display to your computer.   Where would it plug in?   (eg.   where is the VGA or DVI or HDMI socket?) ....  that will hint at what sort of display adapter is in the computer.

 

I would put the graphics card back in the PCIe slot and connect the DVI cable.  All of the motherboard ports are turned off in the BIOS, and just looking now there are no HDMI or DVI or VGA or other video ports on the back of the mobo.  I am scratching my head as to why this works, but in the spirit of experimentation I just pulled the card out one day and did a restart and it all works fine.

[davewantsmoore]

.... and there you go.   Learn something new every day, and shows how out of touch I've been with the past few years of PC gear (since going totally macs)

 

 

Many EFI equipped systems with chipsets from the past few years WILL boot an installed operating system without any display adapter connected.

[davewantsmoore]

I am scratching my head as to why this works

 

Once upon a time (not that long) it did not.     The computers 'BIOS' would fail based on not finding a display device.... and the OS would never be started.

 

More modern EFI is a bit more flexible.

[acg]

Not sure if this mod is supposed to do anything..

 

If you use a multi meter and set to continuity mode, tap PIN3 of the PCI-e bus pin with the exposed metal (conductive) surface, and it will beep. Do the same with the ground beeps on the molex, and the same happens.

 

Chassis ground is earth, so if you tap any exposed metal on your chassis with the earth pin of your PSU, it would beep again.

 

If it doesn't happen in your case,, then it likely means you did this deliberately by choice (e.g. use plastic standoffs instead of brass, and you remove all brackets from interface cards)... Doing so will mean your PC no longer pass the FCC requirements, and in theory at least if you use un shielded RCA cables, your system should pick up interference from this PC.. Any SQ pro/con aside, if your chassis is not earthed, then it's a electrical hazard.

 

Depending on your power supply and DAC, it may well try to draw more than 5V too.

 

Having said all that, nothing ventured, nothing gained.. If chanh or Tasso is interested, I have a spare $20 USB card for 'em to try.. 

 

Here is how I do it...it is still in a jury rigged state and I will make it more permanent one day.  I use two power supplies into the PCIe card...a Sjostrom Super Regulator fed by one rail of my lab LPS and a second rail of the lab LPS into the other section.  The Sjostrom is a decent regulator but the lab LPS is not your best.  The Silverstone USB card sits external to the computer on a notepad (thus not connected directly to chassis earth) fed by a PCIe riser into which the power is injected.  I have designed some better pcb's in Eagle to do the job properly but have just not got around to finishing things off.  The PCIe riser that is my temporary solution is a unique little jobbie that I got from eBay for about $2.  Before I got the riser I had de-constructed a ribbon type PCIe riser and got a good handle on which wires were necessary and which were not...the eBay riser is not ideal but pretty close...I just need to get the Silverstone card back inside the PC and get rid of those long wires/antennae in the process and some dedicated power supplies rather than my Lab LPS.

 

If anyone is tempted to try this then I do recommend the Silverstone EC04-P USB card.  I tried a few others and they were not as satisfactory as the Silverstone.  It would be interesting to see what others have to do to get the tweak to work if they can at all.

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

Silverstone

 

 

Have considered something similar for firewire.....

Edited September 1, 2015 by davewantsmoore

[Scratcher]

Edit: removed pic with personal details sticker.

While your doing the voltage conversion, I reckon there might be a few cheap caps that could be swapped out for expensive mundorfs aye?

[AccuTidal]

While your doing the voltage conversion, I reckon there might be a few cheap caps that could be swapped out for expensive mundorfs aye?

Done!

New sets of Cree Shottkys diodes are fitted. Hashimoto choke input was inserted, and replaced with two Stock Toroidal tranny with larger EI Hashimoto trannies. Last but not the least, 6 electrolytics are swapped for Jensen. And finally, HS-Link was remodified for my DIY I2S with re-Clocking mechanism input.

Mate, it is a new breed now!!!! [emoji6]

[joelha]

https://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=32324

 

http://ppaproduct.blogspot.tw/2014/03/ddr3-1600-module-4g-x2-ddr3-power.html

Tasso,

 

Thanks a lot for the information.

 

In fact I have the Paul Pang memory sticks, but for now I'm running an Intel DN2800MT motherboard.

 

Would the memory sticks from pccasegear.com work with that board?

 

Thanks again.

 

Joel

[dean70]

I have done the opposite with my Silverstone USB card - ran a ground connection using some speaker wire and spade connectors from the card mounting screw to the PSU mounting screw close to the mains connector. The case itself (Silverstone LC16M) would be a questionable ground connection at higher frequencies. The whole expansion card mounting section is usually only held in place by a few aluminum rivets.

 

Also have an internal ASUS ST/H6 sound card for multi-channel & did the same for this & together with some RFI/EMI shielding around the sound cards as well as the USB card has made a noticeable improvement to both the external DAC & internal sound card quality (blacker background esp on the sound card interface).