will more power change the sound of my (pre) amp?

[4heckssake]

Hi guys,

This is just a hypothetical question at this stage but I am considering adding a power amp to my set up to see how my Usher Be 718's like it as they apparently respond favourably to being muscled around by powerful amp. Well this is what Wes Philips said in May 2008 in Stereophile mag....

After extensive auditions using the 60Wpc Ayre AX-7e integrated amplifier, I finally paired the Ushers with my long-term workhorse, the Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 300. Wow. I cannot emphasize this enough: These speakers liked to be kicked in the arse—mo' power was waaay mo' better. They sounded fine with the Ayre, but my oh my, with 300W, they woke up and sang.

Well, I currently run the speakers from my integrated Musical Fidelity E100 which despite it's name apparently offers about 75 - 80 per channel in 8 ohms. It has pre outs so can be used as a pre- amp. It has no trouble driving the Ushers. Volume and clarity are there in spades. The only complaint i have is there is a harshness in the upper register that i would like to tone down one day but can live with it as is. I am just toying with the idea at this stage

So what I am thinking of doing is using a power amp (with the MF in pre mode) to see how that changes things.

This leads me to wonder a few things like the following:

• Does the power amp determine the sound signature much or does the pre amp determine most of the amplifier's sound characteristics?
  
• What would be a good power amp to try - think secondhand and under $1k please.
  
• Can you team solid state power amps with valve pre amps?
  

Any thoughts appreciated

4hecks (at work bored and day dreaming about sweet tunes).

Edited August 19, 2008 by 4heckssake
fat fingered typist

[Grumpy]

G'day Rod. Adding the Rotel power amp to my system using the Denon AVR as the pre has taken my VAF DCX's to another level. I find I'm listening at higher levels now and the bass has tightened considerably and there seems to be more of it. Also the top end, which you noted was recessed when you heard them at my place, has been brought out a little more. So adding the power amp has made a huge difference to my VAF's. I think they, the speakers, have been yearning for some 'current' to make them sing.

I'm not sure the 'sound signature' would change but more current = more control, I think.

[Andythiing]

Hey 4Hks dont know the answer but Im guessing its the main that would make most of the difference if it is purely down to the power but you read how much a good pre - amp benefits a system so I ssume its a combination of factors and probbaly depends on the characetistics of the speakers as well. But thats all gues work on my part!

As to a cheap powerful amp - well you woild be welcome to borrow my old vintage Yahama amp which is rated at 125w per chanel & listed as follows.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/A960/A960-numbers.html

From what I have read this is a very powerful amp and a conservative rating by yamaha - it certainly is the most "meaty" amp I own.

Now its not quite in the condition of the photo's of the nice one in the above link - hey i got it at the dump! but it does work.

Last time a tried it out for any decent period it ran for about 45-60min before it cut out which I think was due to it getting a bit hot - i had the speakers up loud.

It was till working when I used it up the shed on Sunday to try and get my single Kef concerto running!!!!

So whilst a I have a fond spot for it I'm happy to drop it down when I grab your stands and you can have it for a few weeks and see if it makes any difference.

alternatley these are going on ebay in under 24hrs and at 180watts in bridged could be what you need?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200246841365&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010

or even better this one look nice as well

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200246843260&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010

Just let me know if you want a loan of the amp - I can even bring into work and you can pick up tommorrow from town if you want to grab it sooner.

[Keith_W]

Hi Rod, go back to work!!!

Just a query - when you say that you hear some harshness in the upper register ... how loud are you playing it? Is it there at all volumes, or only when you have it loud? Just want to be sure that you're not describing clipping, that's all

As for your question:

Does the power amp determine the sound signature much or does the pre amp determine most of the amplifier's sound characteristics?

... i can't wait to see what answer SNA will give you now It's been bewildering around here lately! If I was a n00b my answer would be (1) neither makes a difference (2) both make a difference (3) there may be differences but I won't believe it until I hear a DBT.

I think that yes, the power amp comes in third (behind the speaker and the room) in determining overall sound.

As for a <$1k but powerful amp ... I can't think of any! Even Class D amps are more than $1k. Maybe someone else can help :o

[4heckssake]

Thanks Grumps and Andy.

yeah i reckon it's going to be one of those try and see matters.

I'm not in a rush so might take you up on the offer Andy to bring around your Yammie beast for a quick trial when you get the speaker stands....unless you really want to lug it into work on the bus??? (i should have known that you would have had something in that shed of yours!!)

don't think we will need weeks to hear a difference tho.

those rotel power amps get some good reports hey.

[Grumpy]

Rod, you can come and pick up my Rotel RB1070 power amp; Rated at 130 into 8ohms with a very high damping factor for a few days if you want to give it a try. You can pick it up Friday and have it for the week-end.

What do you reckon?

[4heckssake]

Hi Rod, go back to work!!!

Just a query - when you say that you hear some harshness in the upper register ... how loud are you playing it? Is it there at all volumes, or only when you have it loud? Just want to be sure that you're not describing clipping, that's all

As for your question:

Does the power amp determine the sound signature much or does the pre amp determine most of the amplifier's sound characteristics?

... i can't wait to see what answer SNA will give you now It's been bewildering around here lately! If I was a n00b my answer would be (1) neither makes a difference (2) both make a difference (3) there may be differences but I won't believe it until I hear a DBT.

I think that yes, the power amp comes in third (behind the speaker and the room) in determining overall sound.

As for a <$1k but powerful amp ... I can't think of any! Even Class D amps are more than $1k. Maybe someone else can help :o

G'day Keith.

I was doing some work there for a moment but pfft...that can wait.

The harshness is there at mild and mid volume levels too but obviously more apparent the louder it gets. i don't listen very loudly actually...not like AJW!

The harshness is probably more to do with my room and the source material (you know the better the system the worse bad recordings sound).

Having said that though, with good recordings I'm not always getting the results as all the reviews i read about these speakers...they all say things like "When I consider the overall sound from any small speaker I’ve auditioned, the Be-718 is the best that I’ve heard. It’s exceedingly well balanced, surprisingly neutral, and extremely transparent. It also has the best bass extension I've heard short of a big floorstanding speaker. The only caveats are that you’ll need a sufficiently powerful amplifier and that you’ll have to give the Be-718 room to breathe, given its generous bass."

I've been playing around with placement a bit and that has helped but I haven't found the sweet combination of balance and neutrality that is potentially there.

I guess i need to look at room treatment too but was hoping to try a big black box firstly.

Edited August 19, 2008 by 4heckssake

[4heckssake]

Rod, you can come and pick up my Rotel RB1070 power amp; Rated at 130 into 8ohms with a very high damping factor for a few days if you want to give it a try. You can pick it up Friday and have it for the week-end.

What do you reckon?

G'day Grumps.

Another fine and generous offer.

Sounds like a good theme for a little gtg at my place soon. byo power amp.

Now TonyM, c0redumpt any other locals...what power amps you guys got?

Rod.

[djb]

i'm no tecnophile but i've generally followed the line that the fewer components between source and ear the better.

Therefore in my purist formation i run a single source with its own volume control to a power amp to speakers [in one case power amp has been adapted to include volume control].

Is the science with me or agin me?

Are the SNA ears with or agin me?

in fear and repidation of the wrath soon to engulf me

david

[Grizzly]

... i can't wait to see what answer SNA will give you now It's been bewildering around here lately! If I was a n00b my answer would be (1) neither makes a difference (2) both make a difference (3) there may be differences but I won't believe it until I hear a DBT.

Hahah Keith . How about (4) I have no idea at all and (5) you should DIY some sort of thingy to fix it!

Actually 4hecks I am keen to see the results of your experimentation.

[raptor]

Can you team solid state power amps with valve pre amps?

Not a problem, 4hs, that's what I'm running. I also tried what djb runs as I have a volume control on my cdp but to my surprise I preferred the sound when the pre was in the system. In theory I agree with djb, in practice it didn't work for me.

[fast_eddie_d]

Hi 4HS

I have not heard your amp or those speakers, but I notice they have the BE metal tweeter. I have encountered a similar harshness issue with a MF 3.5 integrated and JM Lab Cobalt floor standing speakers which use a similar metal tweeter. Once I turned the volume past say 9o'clock which was not particularly loud there was a evident sibilance to female vocals. Not that unpleasant but turned off my mate who was auditioning the amp. Maybe there is a synergy issue between MF amps and those tweeters.

In terms of power amps in your $1k price range there isn't much from the mainstream brands except the NAD c272 and Rotel.

You could try the Wyrd4sound amps or the aussie amps that have been mentioned on the forums which I think are decent value for the power.

I run a valve pre to solid state power amps and I have been happy with the result.

[4heckssake]

Hi 4HS

I have encountered a similar harshness issue with a MF 3.5 integrated and JM Lab Cobalt floor standing speakers which use a similar metal tweeter. Once I turned the volume past say 9o'clock which was not particularly loud there was a evident sibilance to female vocals. Not that unpleasant but turned off my mate who was auditioning the amp. Maybe there is a synergy issue between MF amps and those tweeters.

Thanks Eddie.

Maybe there is synergy issue here.

Interestingly tho the reviewer above found the MF Nu Vista amp to be his preferred amp with these speakers - albeit an entirely different amp from mine.

Edited August 19, 2008 by 4heckssake

[Grumpy]

C'mon Rod. if you can't make down here to pick the Rotel up maybe I could meet you at the Hindmarsh or some other place to drop it off.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Grumpy

[4heckssake]

C'mon Rod. if you can't make down here to pick the Rotel up maybe I could meet you at the Hindmarsh or some other place to drop it off.

Grumps,

If you insist I can certainly make it down to the Port on the weekend and borrow your amp. Shall we schedule in a little visit to Mr V records while I'm in the area?

Shall PM ya later.

Rod.

[Grumpy]

Rod I'm not leaving home this week-end unless I really have to:o

I've had my elderly mother staying here for 3 weeks and I'm worn out(she returns to her home tomorrow)

[Andythiing]

The challenege is on - OK Grumpy your may appear to measure bigger than mine but how accurate is your measure - the battle for the loan amps Hills vs the Port - victory or death!!!!

OK 4Hks I'll see how my back is feeling in the morning and will post if the thing makes it intop the office! cant let some duck loving port supporter beat my Yamaha now can I!

[4heckssake]

ok boys I'm happy to share the love and try each of your power amps.

Andy if you make it to work with the yammie drop me a pm and i'll swing past. i'll be driving tomorrow so all is good if you do...or don't. hey I can even try to remember to put the speaker stands in my car if you like.

[The Grif]

Maybe the best option to fit your budget would be to get two Rotel RB1070s which can be bridged to run in mono and almost doubling their power (I believe). They tend to go for about $450-$500 from what I have seen, so 2 of them will meet your $1k requirement.

Ohh, by the way I just happen to have a Rotel RB1070 in mint condition that I am about to advertise for sale, PM me if you are interested after your audition.

[Soultone]

From a n00b perspective that has been there and done that, here is my experience. Adding a power amp (Rotel 1070) to my previous Cambridge 540A added a lot more bottom end and speed to the reproduction to the sound. What this also allows you to do is add a valve pre (which I also tried and liked a lot). You also have the option of bi-amping which again will give you a tighter bottom end without the help of aerobics oz style. I am a for power amp in the most cases unless you have the option of spending big money on high powered integrated. My n00b 2 cents.

[Grumpy]

Maybe the best option to fit your budget would be to get two Rotel RB1070s which can be bridged to run in mono and almost doubling their power (I believe). They tend to go for about $450-$500 from what I have seen, so 2 of them will meet your $1k requirement.

Ohh, by the way I just happen to have a Rotel RB1070 in mint condition that I am about to advertise for sale, PM me if you are interested after your audition.

Well! there you go Rod; the same Rotel that i have, although I think the price is usually a little higher than that..

I think I'll be looking to add another Rotel in bridged mode one day too but I am happy with the one at the moment. They certainly take control of the speakers.

[seano]

Hey Rod

I'm currently using a Yamaha 100W integrated as a pre-amp with the AKSA 100 as the power amp. Running the integrated on its own is quite nice but chucking in the AKSA lifts the detail and bass to a different level. I have tried bi-amping (using an RCA double adapter on the pre-out) this arrangement too which was quite fun but not as successful in terms of audio quality as I would've thought - I suspect my Krix Lyrix crossover inputs are split between tweet/mid and woofer and I ran the AKSA on the woofer.....must try the other way around one day.

Regardless........I reckon you might be on to something.

[4heckssake]

Maybe the best option to fit your budget would be to get two Rotel RB1070s which can be bridged to run in mono and almost doubling their power (I believe). They tend to go for about $450-$500 from what I have seen, so 2 of them will meet your $1k requirement.

Ohh, by the way I just happen to have a Rotel RB1070 in mint condition that I am about to advertise for sale, PM me if you are interested after your audition.

Thanks Grif, I'll get back to you on this after I have tried out Grumpy's. Nice one Guvna!

[4heckssake]

Hey Rod

I'm currently using a Yamaha 100W integrated as a pre-amp with the AKSA 100 as the power amp. Running the integrated on its own is quite nice but chucking in the AKSA lifts the detail and bass to a different level. I have tried bi-amping (using an RCA double adapter on the pre-out) this arrangement too which was quite fun but not as successful in terms of audio quality as I would've thought - I suspect my Krix Lyrix crossover inputs are split between tweet/mid and woofer and I ran the AKSA on the woofer.....must try the other way around one day.

Regardless........I reckon you might be on to something.

Arh yes I recall your AKSA fondly from the first SA GTG. That's another option i shouldn't discount yes!

[Grumpy]

Rod you don't have to wait for the week-end; you can pick it up sooner if you wish.