tuyen,

I suspect sometimes valve amps are at times used to try to counteract the fact that some horn setups have some acoustic issues. Better IMO to start with something that doesn't need fixing ie that will sound good with neutral amps. Perhaps a good compromise with a 4 way horn setup is to have two tubes for the mid and top where the efficiency will be very very high. Then solid state for the other 2. You can also pick up low cost solid state power amps and mod them. I've picked up a used DSE amp and modded it along with a bi-amp module that is Class AB and Class D - 4 channels. That makes active a bit more affordable. I may end up with some valves in the end for the top end. Will see. Pro amps can also be very good for the bass.

Thanks for the suggestions Paul. Yep, I will try powering the high channels with valves and see how it compares!

Another question, whats the best way for Master Volume control? What I mean is, should I have a master volume attenuator between the source(ie. dac) and also use the DBX crossover to trim separate channel gain (or could install volume pots on the individual power amps and use that to trim?).

OR

Should I not have any attenuator between the source and the DBX (ie. full un-attenuated signal) and instead get something like the MSB Discrete 8channel Analog Volume Controller (http://www.sound4sale.com/products/MVC.php) and put it between the DBX and the power amps? the MSB device allows for individual trimming and hence I will not require volume pots on the power amps or gain adjustments on the DBX.

Decisions decisions...

tuyen,

I suspect sometimes valve amps are at times used to try to counteract the fact that some horn setups have some acoustic issues.

Not really ,there are some great sounding low powered tube's out there that love nothing more than pwoering high eff speakers .

Cheers

tuyen,

Very good question! I'm inclined to think that you are better to do all volume control in the analogue domain to avoid losing bits. Using DBX for level trimming will reduce bit resolution. That's probably ok within certain limits but there will come a point where it becomes a problem. I believe that digital active crossovers also tend to prefer a relatively high signal level, rather than deal with an analogue input that has already been attenuated by a preamp. So this means the ideal is to input a digital signal (SPDIF coax or AES EBU), then attenuate in analogue after DBX. That could include the unit you linked, so I'd guess you could adjust all the individual levels and do remote volume master control with that. Seems like the best way to do it.

Having said that, I'm currently not doing it that way. I use preamp inputs into DEQ > AES digital > DCX. I use passive attenuators for level matching and the preamp is the master volume control. Certainly not ideal and most likely not my long term solution. Most likely I will run 2.0 digital downmix SPDIF coax into DEQ from a processor with digital level control, and surrounds on analogue preamp inputs. I think it comes down to the compromise that you can live with.

Either of your plans could work. The first option you would need to be able to control the level going in to DBX as a master volume, then level match with passive attenuators. That should be low cost and easy to implement and convenient. The downside is using digital volume control with bit resolution suffering as a result. The second option sounds like the one with less compromise with a little extra expense - not too bad really.

If I were you I'd do it the easy way to start with preamp inputs and pots to level match. It will take some time to put together a 4 way horn and when you have something that is fairly sorted acoustically you can trial the refinements here. Which way will sound better? That's the million dollar question isn't it? One way to find out ... look forward to seeing how it goes.

Not really ,there are some great sounding low powered tube's out there that love nothing more than pwoering high eff speakers .

Cheers

Mal,

Crikey! I'm not taking a dig at valve amps! I'm just saying that some people use them like audio band aids. If a system can't sound good with low cost solid state amps, then it has acoustic problems and it's best to fix those first. Then add the valve amps if that then gives a sound that you find more appealing.

One example is the old Adire HE10 kit. It has an Eminence Coax driver with a CD built in. Apparently it was magical with a certain tube amp, but it must have been one that applied some kind of audio bandaid. I heard the kit driven with a Rotel power amp. It had some really nasty traits, at certain points it would make my ears bleed. I also heard some Focal floorstanders side by side. There was more useable output in the Focals, simply because they could play cleanly quite loud without bleeding ears. Even at moderate levels the HE10s could make me jump out of my seat. Not in a good way. I suspect it was a problem with a less than ideal CD > throat transition in the coax driver.

I really wanted to like the Adire kit and had it in mind as my next upgrade, but it would have been a step backwards. I had to agree with John at Aranmah who had the kit that it sounded awful. I didn't get a chance to come back to listen after some more break in time, but seems hard to credit that it could possibly change enough to make it worthwhile. The whole idea was that it would have more oomph and dynamics. The conventional floorstander won in that department easily. No doubt your speaker will be something special when it's finished.

There's a fair chance I may at some point swap one of my cheap SS amps for a fancy schmancy tube like yours, perhaps even DIY.

Edited September 16, 201015 yr by Paul Spencer

Thanks again Paul! Good point about trying the easy way first (I get so easily carried away.. expensive and often silly habit).

I do already have all the pots (blue alps, came with the amp modules) and can use a basic stepped attenuator (keen to try a lightspeed or some form of TVC in its place) for the master control. I know Martin from Azurahorn uses the first approach I mentioned (TVC before the dbx crossover) and he has 3x integrated valve amps which allows for individual volume adjustments for tuning. His system sounds pretty good, even though the DBX is getting quite a low signal most of the time (as noticed on the peak level meters on the DBX).

Mal,

Crikey! I'm not taking a dig at valve amps! I'm just saying that some people use them like audio band aids. If a system can't sound good with low cost solid state amps, then it has acoustic problems and it's best to fix those first. Then add the valve amps if that then gives a sound that you find more appealing.

I didn't say you were having a dig at tube amps ,I have a mental image of you in the fetal position after you read my post .Theres not many tube amps out there that would have a low enough noise floor to run with horn's .Some people can put up with a high noise floor I can't and alot of people turn to tube amps thinking there a magic fix .

I don't care that much aboutwhich topology as long as it works for the job at hand .But can't handle high noise floor systems .Once you get into horns its just multiplied further .

Cheers

Edited September 16, 201015 yr by 56oval

For volume control I'm using Amarra, and attenuation at the amps. I'll swap out the pots for a simple resistor when I know the value needed. This way digital signals can be run as hot as needed. Attenuation in Amarra will seldom be more than 10db and done in 24bit I dont see this as an issue. But you've have to relegate your spinning disk transport to its rightful place in the history books Tuyen

I also like the idea of running everything upstream at full gain with passive attention on the amp, just in case there is a glitch in the processor and it sends a max volume thump to the unprotected drivers.

Apparently the $250 Miniwatt S1 is ear-to-the-horn silent btw.

No chance Bev. CD94 staying put thank you !

Decided to use DBX to trim the channels (done in 24-bit too) and just have a basic stepped attenuator between the DAC/DBX for master volume control to get my system going.

$250 for 1 miniwatt? Thats how much it cost me for 8 channels of class-T amplication! Be interested to do comparos when we have both our systems running.

Are your horns ready yet? Martin says he should have my 550 and 340 ready by this coming week.

Are your horns ready yet? Martin says he should have my 550 and 340 ready by this coming week.

He told me something similar quite a few weeks ago But I'm waiting on AE to make the bass drivers too. And a 1000hz tractrix from Stereo Lab...

Martin is a great guy, to buy from or just talk audio with! Wouldn't you agree Andrew?

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

SETriodes Forum -- Central Florida Audio Society -- Fullrange Drivers

============================================

"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of

sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils."

- William Shakespeare

I agree. Great humble character with good technical knowledge too.

Bought a GOTO 4way active crossover to replace the DBX. crossovers with any AD/DA digital conversions are not my thing.

Edited September 21, 201015 yr by tuyen

My GOTO horns setup at Martin's (Mr Azurahorn) place on the weekend. I will be using an onken box with a 15" Altec 416-8a woofer instead of Martin's big bass horns though.

Anyone in Perth with an Avantgarde Duo/Trio setup? I am curious to hear how they sound in comparison to GOTO. If not, I may have to wait til next year when I head to Singapore/Vietnam

My GOTO horns setup at Martin's (Mr Azurahorn) place on the weekend. I will be using an onken box with a 15" Altec 416-8a woofer instead of Martin's big bass horns though.

Anyone in Perth with an Avantgarde Duo/Trio setup? I am curious to hear how they sound in comparison to GOTO. If not, I may have to wait til next year when I head to Singapore/Vietnam

I have Trio in Sydney.

Lovely Goto you have there. Heard Goto in Hong Kong and Vietnam this year, very impressive texture and details. The ultimate, if you get it right.

Who cares about the horns, check out those stax headphones!

and the poor unloved audionote...

I have Trio in Sydney.

Lovely Goto you have there. Heard Goto in Hong Kong and Vietnam this year, very impressive texture and details. The ultimate, if you get it right.

jcr33 your right they are very special indeed effortless and beautifull tuyen hurry up and get them going

Hi JCR33,

Any chance I could come over to Sydney to visit you sometime please?

Any other stand-out setups in Vietnam/SG you recommend I can ask/beg for a listen (apart from Cuongpham's)?

Agreed, DIY horns (especially multiway) can get quite messy and hard to sound coherent. Probably why I just ended up sticking with same style horn (le'cleach), all goto compression drivers and goto crossover as well. Seems to do the trick ! Not sure how well the Altec 416 woofer will keep up with the speed of the horns though. Just have to wait and see Are there any other aspects of the setup you have found in your experience that I should be looking at?

Regards

Tuyen

Hi JCR33,

Any chance I could come over to Sydney to visit you sometime please?

Any other stand-out setups in Vietnam/SG you recommend I can ask/beg for a listen (apart from Cuongpham's)?

Agreed, DIY horns (especially multiway) can get quite messy and hard to sound coherent. Probably why I just ended up sticking with same style horn (le'cleach), all goto compression drivers and goto crossover as well. Seems to do the trick ! Not sure how well the Altec 416 woofer will keep up with the speed of the horns though. Just have to wait and see Are there any other aspects of the setup you have found in your experience that I should be looking at?

Regards

Tuyen

Tuyen

With my work with US GOTO rep Ming Su, he's very confident with the altec 416 to match with the upper horns, coherance wise. I might be building some more bass horns for him following his recent successful demo at Rocky Mnt.

Jack lives only 2 minutes from me...so it would be good to say hi...though I don't have any audio gear running at the moment.

Andrew

Hi JCR33,

Any chance I could come over to Sydney to visit you sometime please?

Any other stand-out setups in Vietnam/SG you recommend I can ask/beg for a listen (apart from Cuongpham's)?

Agreed, DIY horns (especially multiway) can get quite messy and hard to sound coherent. Probably why I just ended up sticking with same style horn (le'cleach), all goto compression drivers and goto crossover as well. Seems to do the trick ! Not sure how well the Altec 416 woofer will keep up with the speed of the horns though. Just have to wait and see Are there any other aspects of the setup you have found in your experience that I should be looking at?

Regards

Tuyen

Hi Tuyen,

Of course, you are welcome. Likewise, love to visit you if I am in Perth next.

I only know CP in Vietnam when I visited him earlier this year. Are you planning a trip to Vietnam soon?

My friend in Hong Kong has just started upgrading his speakers to all Goto and he is very happy with the result. I will visit him when I am there next.

With the new music room, I have been so busy with the moving, all the CD/LPs, books and toys...., just not enough time in a day to do all these. But I am having lots of fun organising the move and setting up.

I got to hear your horns at Martins this week Tuyen, very nice indeed, smooth and with nice tone, its all there but for a bit of tweeking with levels. Only lacking in mid and lower bass with Martins bass horns, so I think you should see an improvement with the 15'ers.

Would love to pop over with my AE 15'ers for a comparison with the Altecs but the boxes have turned out to be monstrously heavy..maybe a driver swap would be interesting, if they fitted.

Hi Tuyen,

Of course, you are welcome. Likewise, love to visit you if I am in Perth next.

I only know CP in Vietnam when I visited him earlier this year. Are you planning a trip to Vietnam soon?

My friend in Hong Kong has just started upgrading his speakers to all Goto and he is very happy with the result. I will visit him when I am there next.

With the new music room, I have been so busy with the moving, all the CD/LPs, books and toys...., just not enough time in a day to do all these. But I am having lots of fun organising the move and setting up.

Cheers Jack. Always welcome to pop by when you are in Perth.

I'm visiting Vietnam for a couple of weeks at end of Jan 2011, hopefully will get to meet CP and few other audiophiles in the area. Will take plenty of photos!

Very nice photos (as always) of your friend's GOTO setup. Any idea what drivers/horns was he using before?

Tuyen

With my work with US GOTO rep Ming Su, he's very confident with the altec 416 to match with the upper horns, coherance wise. I might be building some more bass horns for him following his recent successful demo at Rocky Mnt.

Jack lives only 2 minutes from me...so it would be good to say hi...though I don't have any audio gear running at the moment.

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Sounds great Any idea how Onken cabinets compare to the back loaded horn cabinets you build? I plan to upgrade the Altec to the GOTO 38-WNSH drivers eventually. May look into those BLH cabinets then.

I got to hear your horns at Martins this week Tuyen, very nice indeed, smooth and with nice tone, its all there but for a bit of tweeking with levels. Only lacking in mid and lower bass with Martins bass horns, so I think you should see an improvement with the 15'ers.

Would love to pop over with my AE 15'ers for a comparison with the Altecs but the boxes have turned out to be monstrously heavy..maybe a driver swap would be interesting, if they fitted.

Hi Bev,

My thoughts of the sound was the same as you have described. The GOTO drivers/horns sound very delicate and refined. I haven't had much exposure to other horns yet though, hence why I am interested to hear any others if/when the opportunity arises.

No problems regarding the driver swap/test. The onken cabinets are still a few weeks away yet. I know flemo is working his hardest

I was in HK recently and heard the setup mentioned by JC earlier. The owner ( seen in the second pic in Maroon Tshirt- very nice guy) just got a Passlab crossover the night before our visit and he's still playing around with different XO/passive/active configuration but even in this state, the Gotos/ TAD setup sounded utterly effortless, dynamic, very refined with a nice tone. Most impressed.

Edited November 8, 201015 yr by jaspert

Thanks for the photos Jasper! Very coool looking setup indeed. Love the use of the pink dumbbells as support.

I'm still impressed how so many drivers per channel can work so well together(ie. 4/5-way) and still sound as like one 'whole', if you know what I mean. Not one driver stands out from another. Running a crossover with first order cutoff slopes (6db) helps maybe? I remember tesing out 24 and 48db cutoffs on the DBX and it made the sound very clean but from the listening position, you could easily focus and hear each individual driver doing it's part. Not sure how to explain technically but just sharing my thoughts.

Hope you enjoy your yammys Jasper. Martin cleaned them up good!

I think i can understand what you are saying regarding the XO cutoff slopes.

Looking forward to trying the Yammy in due course. Martin has become very fond of your Gotos.