Phantom Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Don't you mean biggest leap BACKWARD! +1 I make no pretence of being a technician, but my understanding is that SMDs were introduced as a way of making production costs much cheaper. If there are any sonic benefits, I would love to know what they might be. Also happy to be proven wrong,if I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telecine Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 really how so ? what is there exactly to explain. yes parametric EQ been around donkeys years. here here circa 2003 from rives audio parametric EQ or PARC as it was called and it is all analog. http://www.stereophile.com/roomtreatments/883/ you might find this of interest..paramtric eq you will discover how far back it goes in donkeys years http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/110617-who-really-invented-parametric-eq.html so you will see parametric EQ came along a long time back and I dont see how whacking that on speaker is "a great advance in high end world" Perhaps you fail to see the value of how it has been applied. ATC, Adam or any of the other other manufacturers of active speakers would love to have it as implemented by SGR Audio but haven't managed to achieve it. Dismiss it if you like but it is quite revolutionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 you think its the best thing since sliced bread, I don't. thats all there is to it. lets move on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Do you agree or disagree? There are lots of advancements.... but the mainstream pays them little attention. On the whole, high street hifi, hasnt progressed much... The main reason being that fixing the big ticket problems (rooms and speaker radiation pattern/diffraction/frequency response) .... are reasonably impractical for most people to tackle (require large speakers). I can understand why a thread like this gets started :-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 you think its the best thing since sliced bread, I don't. thats all there is to it. lets move on... .... but what is IT ?! .... It's a tool. You cannot really comment on IT in isolation / vacuum .... but only on how someone uses IT. I don't doubt you've heard people use it poorly.... but a good workman never blames his tools. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 +1 I make no pretence of being a technician, but my understanding is that SMDs were introduced as a way of making production costs much cheaper. If there are any sonic benefits, I would love to know what they might be. Also happy to be proven wrong,if I am. SMD has advantages in some situations (Eg. low inductance capacitors) .... You see many generalisations about it, and most are poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Triode Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) SMD has advantages in some situations (Eg. low inductance capacitors) .... You see many generalisations about it, and most are poor. Dan D'Agostino says that it just makes circuits unnecessarily complex. They are good for mass production where low MTBF values are acceptable and replacement is cheaper than repair - they have no place in High End equipment. Edited May 17, 2014 by Sir Triode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aslan Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) Munch, munch, munch FWIW, I don't think there has been anything 'revolutionary' for quite a few years, 'Evolutionary' yes, but revolutionary - NO Edited May 17, 2014 by Aslan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 They ALL have local NFB, agreed. He is probably referring to the absence of a loop involving external components and wires or PCB tracks. But in circuit terms, they ALL have NFB. All tube power amps (SE) I build have no NFB at all. A cathode resistor by-passed by a cap (e,g. 1K\100uf) provides no NFB. Like I said, you are looking for NFB in external wire loops, but that 6SN7 and the two 300Bs all have NFB, internally. The amp won't work without NFB, you can't escape it. The whole NFB-is-bad attitude is a mistake. You can do lots of NFB badly, or well, and you can do smaller amounts of NFB badly, or well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwhouston Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) I'm still to see the ML schematic that has no NFB. I posted my NFB free schematic where is the ML one. Inside tubes it is not NFB but control. If I turn a tap on it controls the water flow. It has no feed back loop or system to monitor actual flow but allows flow based on it's setting. If the water pressure increaes the water through the tap will increase. It has no means to throttle back the water flow based on increased pressure. If there is Ck across Rk and the tube is not clipping the signal will be amplified relaibly and in the case of tubes, in a linear fashion to the limits of the tube. Edited May 17, 2014 by mwhouston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 There are no active speakers out there with active crossovers and Parametric Equalisation all operating in the analogue domain. SGR Audio are the only ones, hence my post in this thread. Linkwitz Orion/LX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Dan D'Agostino says that it just makes circuits unnecessarily complex. They are good for mass production where low MTBF values are acceptable and replacement is cheaper than repair - they have no place in High End equipment. What about if you need a capacitor with really low inductance? 90% if what you read about people who have problems with SMD are just misusing the parts, and/or don't know what they're talking about. They have pros and cons. Generalising SMD=no place in high end is nonsense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telecine Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Linkwitz Orion/LX Don't think that it has PEQ from what I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Triode Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) What about if you need a capacitor with really low inductance? 90% if what you read about people who have problems with SMD are just misusing the parts, and/or don't know what they're talking about. They have pros and cons. Generalising SMD=no place in high end is nonsense. And since when has the lack of a capacitor with really low inductance been a hindrance to producing a great circuit and good sounding components? It has no place in the High End because it requires special soldering equipment to service components (which many technicians lack). Shipping High End equipment back to their manufacturer's location for repair is not a cost effective proposition in many cases (large and heavy). Case in point the new Boulder 3000 amps employ SMD components and weighs 161kg alone (256kg boxed). I certainly would not purchase equipment that did not employ through hole technology not only for reasons of reliability but also for ease of repair and readily available parts. Edited May 17, 2014 by Sir Triode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHC Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 On the whole, high street hifi, hasnt progressed much... The main reason being that fixing the big ticket problems (rooms and speaker radiation pattern/diffraction/frequency response) .... are reasonably impractical for most people to tackle (require large speakers). Agreed. If someone could come up with a practical, affordable and wife-friendly solution for the average lounge room, that would be revolutionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Agreed. If someone could come up with a practical, affordable and wife-friendly solution for the average lounge room, that would be revolutionary. Paul Spencer's PSE-144. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 And since when has the lack of a capacitor with really low inductance been a hindrance to producing a great circuit Asking or telling? Low inductance capacitors are critical components for many applications inside audio devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Triode Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Asking or telling? Low inductance capacitors are critical components for many applications inside audio devices. And before the advent of SMD components, how did circuit designers manage? You are making it sound as though one needs SMD components in order to make great sounding components. Which is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 And before the advent of SMD components, how did circuit designers manage? In many high frequency applications where very low ESL is desirable, they didn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) And before the advent of SMD components, how did circuit designers manage? You are making it sound as though one needs SMD components in order to make great sounding components. Which is not true. Vice versa ,as well Let's pick on toroidal transformers ,there only used because there cheap :-) Edited May 17, 2014 by Malcolm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Triode Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) In many high frequency applications where very low ESL is desirable, they didn't. They still were able to produce great sounding components regardless. And these old components still sound great today and are easily serviceable. Dan D'Agostino has returned to using through hole parts in his new amps because he doesn't have to use x number of SMD components to 1 discrete through hole part - less complexity. Edited May 17, 2014 by Sir Triode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 You are making it sound as though one needs SMD components in order to make great sounding components. Which is not true. I never meant to imply this. My point (which I think I was pretty clear on) is that SMD has it's pros and cons. In some applications it's very desirable. A blanket statement about their "suitability" is naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Triode Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) I never meant to imply this. My point (which I think I was pretty clear on) is that SMD has it's pros and cons. In some applications it's very desirable. A blanket statement about their "suitability" is naive. In mass produced mass market components esp those made by large corporations that are bound by international law to keep spares for 10 years after the component has been made obsolete - sure, they are fine. But not in boutique manufactured and expensive components like those found in the High End. Whole manufacturers may or may not be around after 10 years. e.g. Audio Aero. I am not arguing the fact that they are unsuitable from a SQ POV. I am arguing from an ease of repair and longevity POV. Edited May 17, 2014 by Sir Triode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) Dan D'Agostino has returned to using through hole parts in his new amps because he doesn't have to use x number of SMD components to 1 discrete through hole part - less complexity. Well that's great, he must be able to get acceptable performance without SMD in his application. That's no surprise. Higher frequency things (DAC/ADC for example) have tighter tolerances, where you may be unlikely get away with that. Edited May 17, 2014 by davewantsmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 And before the advent of SMD components, how did circuit designers manage? You are making it sound as though one needs SMD components in order to make great sounding components. Which is not true. Requier proof to back up this statment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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