4 hours ago, doogie44 said:

Strangely enough you don't hear the 'end game' phrase in the world of music reproduced by guitar amplifiers.

 

Just achieving the fidelity and lucious sound of a VOX 30 EL84 amplifier (eg The Beatles) or using a Marshall stack (Jimi H.) or a Fender amp (tube or SS) or a mesa Boogie tube amp (any number of jazz guitarists) is quite enough for most players. There are plenty of options but relatively few 'greats' here. It seems that music makers know intuitively what they are looking for and prefer that sound.

 

I think that speaks for itself.

 

Most players choose their gear to achieve what they consider to be their preferred tone which becomes associated with the artist as their signature sound.
 

Guitar amps are also inherently designed to work best inside the specific frequency response of the instrument instead of your hifi system which ideally can accurately reproduce 20hz to 20khz.

 

i agree pro audio and musicians themselves are often nowhere near as obsessed with ultimate sound quality as your average audiophile.

 

The dichotomy is we spend money on hardware to reduce distortion when often in the music we love its the distortion that makes it great! 🤣

 

 

Edited July 3, 2025Jul 3 by S1000XR

6 hours ago, doogie44 said:

Strangely enough you don't hear the 'end game' phrase in the world of music reproduced by guitar amplifiers.

 

Just achieving the fidelity and lucious sound of a VOX 30 EL84 amplifier (eg The Beatles) or using a Marshall stack (Jimi H.) or a Fender amp (tube or SS) or a mesa Boogie tube amp (any number of jazz guitarists) is quite enough for most players. There are plenty of options but relatively few 'greats' here. It seems that music makers know intuitively what they are looking for and prefer that sound.

 

I think that speaks for itself.

I haven't been around music gear for about 10 years but there was a lot of audiophilesque boutique amps , pedals and guitars back then. John Mayers Dumbles and Two rocks. Eric Johnsons Two Rocks. Walter Becker Bogner Ecstasy. And Ive seen plenty of artists over years use different brands and amps. Toys for boys certainly makes it way into the pro musician scene. 👌

1 hour ago, crisis said:

I haven't been around music gear for about 10 years but there was a lot of audiophilesque boutique amps , pedals and guitars back then. John Mayers Dumbles and Two rocks. Eric Johnsons Two Rocks. Walter Becker Bogner Ecstasy. And Ive seen plenty of artists over years use different brands and amps. Toys for boys certainly makes it way into the pro musician scene. 👌

Yeah plenty of gear addicts posing as musicians out there! 😉

 

As an old very average bass player i can attest to looking on in amazement at guitarists carrying in more gear than the drummer! 
 

Pedalboards bigger than the mixing desk! 😀

1 hour ago, S1000XR said:

Yeah plenty of gear addicts posing as musicians out there! 😉

 

As an old very average bass player i can attest to looking on in amazement at guitarists carrying in more gear than the drummer! 
 

Pedalboards bigger than the mixing desk! 😀

I'm not sure Id be too critical of any of those guys "posing" as musicians. 😁

29 minutes ago, crisis said:

I'm not sure Id be too critical of any of those guys "posing" as musicians. 😁

All meant in good fun.
 

Bass players cop more **** than anyone! 🤣

19 hours ago, S1000XR said:

All meant in good fun.
 

Bass players cop more **** than anyone! 🤣

Definitely. They did from me! Our drummer used to keep him company..  😬😁👍

Darko has an interesting youtube on a retirement system, which aligns with endgame thinking.

 

 

Im sure those kef ls60's sound great, but I am wary of putting too many "components" into single boxes.  With the way technology moves so rapidly these days, when will a streaming solution become outdated and non-functional? How long will the amplifier remain durable and functional?  What if a driver gets damaged?

I'm the guy who won't even consider a loudspeaker with a damaged dust cover over the tweeter even though apparently a damaged cover makes no audible difference.  Beauty has value.

 

One highly useful idea darko presents was economical, if in retirement one cannot afford to buy two of the units, then that's not the unit to buy. Can I replace this when it dies, is clearly a useful consideration.

 

The idea of separates, but not full separates is my "endgame".  Likely not pre/pow, but integrated. Streamer in the integrated, but still having an analogue in so I can upgrade the streaming side of things if something great appears on market, digital in's too, especially usb and optical as I enjoy digital source via the wonder of personal computers.  But nope, don't need the 5+ different analogue inputs I see in so many of the integrateds, just two is enough, but certainly do want subwoofer out.

 

So endgame for me is the current vaf i66's i've already got, they are plenty good enough and I know that just like every other amplifier i've owned, eventually the amp dies and I'll be buying something else.

 

There is no endgame, all electronics dies or becomes obsolete... or I just experience tinkering upgradeitis, and see yet another interesting bargain on sna.

 

Interesting take from Darko. 
 

I think good quality analogue pre/power separate or a purely analogue based integrated is quite future proof, as generally the technology is proven and last many years. 
 

i understand dacs may theoretically improve and streaming platforms may come and go but as far as connection protocols go optical, digital coax and analogue rca/xlr are unlikely to change as if anything they are more likely to eventually be replaced with a full lossless wireless protocol and we will do away with cables all together. I am talking both power and signal all full wireless. (Imagine the screams of horror  from the purists and cable junkies then! 🤣) 
 

HDMI standards will change but that will be driven by the manufacturers wanting planned obsolescence. Since EARC and a full lossless return channel there is really limited fundamental improvements to be made. Many of us are 8k future proofed already and there seems to be no real appetite for it currently. 
 

in 25 years, who knows what the hobby will look like but as you said for most of us its far more likely a want for a change or just to try a new bit of gear that prevents end game ever being a thing than reliability or tech changes! 

Edited August 29, 2025Aug 29 by S1000XR

1 hour ago, S1000XR said:

i understand dacs may theoretically improve

Isn't human hearing already the limit?

Darko et al are in the business of spruiking products. Has Fremer admitted to age-related hearing loss? All I see on youtube is self-appointed advertorialists telling you how to spend your money under various hypothetical pretexts. Darko uses the soft sell approach, the motor mouths (Jay's, Huff, et al) use the hard sell.

 

What criteria must a hifi system fulfil at retirement age? Clearly not high frequency excellence. Soundstage? Liveliness? Protect from further hearing loss (which tech-side features play into this)?

Draw up your own list and then see whether it's achievable in financial, technical and hearing capacity terms.

Edited August 29, 2025Aug 29 by Steff

End game for me is when I'm sick of tinkering and spending money.

 

I'm there now.

So true about reviews as advertising with soft or hard sell options.  How often do we see a review that says, "This is a poor product at any price!"... and what manufacturer would use a reviewer/advertiser that said that about any product openly anyways?  But maybe that's an interesting topic to discuss, perhaps there simply and truthfully are so very many audio products that are quite good enough and thus the poor ones just fall into the void.

 

Yes, re getting sick of tinkering and spending money, I get that too, but it comes and goes, surely there is a stronger antibiotic available?... deafness may be the ultimate cure!

 

The worst "endgame" product I purchased was the psaudio bhk 250 stereo amp, had a genuinely horrible hiss I could hear at 3 metres away, I lost $2.5k getting rid of that amp asap and am wary of any hiss producing products forever after.

End game for me will be when they come up with a vaccine.

Edited December 26, 2025Dec 26 by Yamaha_man

There is no end game. It is not human psyche. Humans always want more, better, the next thing. That's why you get billionaires always wanting to be multi-billionaires. And so it goes.

I might have reached my end game, but then I started taking steps to convert my speakers from passive crossovers to active, with a dedicated amplifier channel per driver component. I do not know yet whether the improvement will be worth continued effort, but if it is then I will end up needing 18 channels of amplification for my 7.1 surround system.

I really don't think of an end-game. Recently most of my purchases or upgrades have been due to being exposed to products that I did not know existed. On another forum I read about other's experiences with BACCH4Mac software. I tried it and I really liked what it did for my system. I don't go about saying how great something is because I know we all have different tastes, likes and dislikes. Right now I really enjoy what I have, but if I read about something new and it tickles my fancy I may consider researching more about it. I think that's what makes this hobby fun - learning about something new and reading about other's experiences. 99% of the things I have researched I have decided not to pursue.