21 hours ago, S1000XR said:

 

Thanks for your input. So is it just wanting improvement that triggers that next step or is it just wanting to stay involved in the hobby? Or is the hifi bargain the high? 

 

Its rediscovering music Ive known for 30 to 40 years with each replay on equipment that has improved the resolution of my system. I am currently listening to music I have heard hundreds of times, as though it is the first time, with my recent speaker upgrade. Someone recently made the comment, "I am more interested in listening to the music than my system". Alan Parsons also took a similar swipe at audiophiles. This is wrong and only when you get your system performing at a certain level do you understand it is wrong. My system is quite modest in the scheme of things, worth less in total than a single high end component, but Ive tried to optimize and extract the best I can and at its current state, especially with these speakers, I cant hear my system as much. Music is affected less by distortion and the sound is not "coming from the speakers. I'm listening to the music. And I realise I have just touched on this experience. What would further upgrades reveal?

19 hours ago, Lil Caesar said:

The point of the diminishing returns analysis where the investment required to notice an improvement is beyond one’s means or simply irrelevant, illogical or just sheer madness.

 

 

 

I thought I was nearing the point of diminishing returns but my recent upgrades are demonstrating that I am nowhere near it,. And I suspect where unlimited funds prevailed, while the improvements may become more specific, I think they will always be audible. In reality the first point of diminishing returns may be the first system that took us from no music to music. 😁

4 hours ago, S1000XR said:

@David A The key is always remembering it’s about the music at the end of the day. 

 

I owned my first floorstanding system for 17 years which included Infinity Reference 60's, a Nakamichi Amplifier 1 integrated and JVC XL-Z1050 cdp. I later added a Technics RS-BX828 tape deck, Cambridge Audio T-500 tuner and upgraded to Audioquest cables, incl: Slate biwire sc’s in the late 90's/early 2000's to finish my system. During that time I was content with the level of my system and didn't aspire to own anything better. I just bought cd's and enjoyed listening to music. In many ways I was happier during that period than in the decade or so when I worked my arse off to build my current system, as I rarely had spare money to buy cd's (however the ones I did buy were mostly audiophile cd's which for the most part did sound very good). Looking at my cd rack today, most of my music collection is from the late 80's, 90's and early naughties. So when I finish building my new system, other than a possible amp upgrade in future if & when funds allow, i'll be done and plan to get back to simply buying cd's/sacd's and just enjoying music again.

18 hours ago, Lil Caesar said:

Yepski.  Avantgarde Colibri C2s on rubber bullets cross to the REL 15” Predators @75Hz.  Burson voyagers are class a/b but operate in class a to 30 watts.  Since the Colibri are 98dB efficient, the amps never leave class a in this scenario.

 

Its interesting times in the market when it comes to amplifiers. 

 

I originally upgraded to the Cinema 30 in part for its solid toroidal based power section and it was an improvement on my existing Focal Choras.  However when I upgraded to the Kanta LCR I did try a 3 channel hypex NCX500 based power amp to try and get the best out of them with lots of clean power and the fact everyone seemed to be raving about Hypex and Purifi class D modules. 

 

I still have no idea why but it just didnt pair well at all. The bass was thin and it just sounded flat and unengaging. In short I just had never heard a Class D amp that I liked including some of the NAD products. They sounded almost too clean and analytical (triggering the measurements guru's there!)

 

I then made the decision to look at a dedicated 2 channel integrated amplifier as I never had any issues with the C30 for surround duties and it was 2 channel I wanted to improve. 

 

I seriously ummed and aahed about the Marantz Model 30 as it used the Hypex modules I didnt get great results from previously. Thankfully I found its all about the implementation as the Model 30 couldnt have been more different when put into my system. Maybe it was the preamp section of the Model 30 but in short it turned out to be a geat pairing. 

 

The point of this ramble is that I think for ultimate sound quality Class A is still the king and I would have always said class a/b is the best compromise but the latest Class D technology really is coming on in leaps and bounds. 

...The Bursons were an attempt to see if anything could best my NAD C298's - these are purifi-based and I was bi-amping into the Colibri with them !

 

These Voyager monoblocs are an improvement, yes - but not by a great deal.  The C298's are power overkill for these Horns of mine, but they're deadly silent and clean.  and neutral - Class D has come a looong way 🙂.

41 minutes ago, crisis said:

 

Its rediscovering music Ive known for 30 to 40 years with each replay on equipment that has improved the resolution of my system. I am currently listening to music I have heard hundreds of times, as though it is the first time, with my recent speaker upgrade. Someone recently made the comment, "I am more interested in listening to the music than my system". Alan Parsons also took a similar swipe at audiophiles. This is wrong and only when you get your system performing at a certain level do you understand it is wrong. My system is quite modest in the scheme of things, worth less in total than a single high end component, but Ive tried to optimize and extract the best I can and at its current state, especially with these speakers, I cant hear my system as much. Music is affected less by distortion and the sound is not "coming from the speakers. I'm listening to the music. And I realise I have just touched on this experience. What would further upgrades reveal?

I thought I was nearing the point of diminishing returns but my recent upgrades are demonstrating that I am nowhere near it,. And I suspect where unlimited funds prevailed, while the improvements may become more specific, I think they will always be audible. In reality the first point of diminishing returns may be the first system that took us from no music to music. 😁

 

I agree wanting to hear music at its best should only be a positive thing for artists and creators, not something to be frowned upon. I wonder if that Alan Parsons comment dates back to times where nearly every houshold had a stereo system as part of their everyday lives as opposed to someone listening to Dark Side of the Moon on a JBL bluetooth speaker and raving to their friends about the sound quality! 😉

 

I do find myself fascinated by the promo pics of PMC speakers and their transmission line designs. Glad you are enjoying them. 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by S1000XR

15 minutes ago, Lil Caesar said:

...The Bursons were an attempt to see if anything could best my NAD C298's - these are purifi-based and I was bi-amping into the Colibri with them !

 

These Voyager monoblocs are an improvement, yes - but not by a great deal.  The C298's are power overkill for these Horns of mine, but they're deadly silent and clean.  and neutral - Class D has come a looong way 🙂.

 

Interesting the NAD is so close to the Bursons class A performance.

 

And Class D will only get better where I think its fair to say Class A and A/B are very mature solved designs.

 

All still have their place in the industry. 

33 minutes ago, David A said:

 

I owned my first floorstanding system for 17 years which included Infinity Reference 60's, a Nakamichi Amplifier 1 integrated and JVC XL-Z1050 cdp. I later added a Technics RS-BX828 tape deck, Cambridge Audio T-500 tuner and upgraded to Audioquest cables, incl: Slate biwire sc’s in the late 90's/early 2000's to finish my system. During that time I was content with the level of my system and didn't aspire to own anything better. I just bought cd's and enjoyed listening to music. In many ways I was happier during that period than in the decade or so when I worked my arse off to build my current system, as I rarely had spare money to buy cd's (however the ones I did buy were mostly audiophile cd's which for the most part did sound very good). Looking at my cd rack today, most of my music collection is from the late 80's, 90's and early naughties. So when I finish building my new system, other than a possible amp upgrade in future if & when funds allow, i'll be done and plan to get back to simply buying cd's/sacd's and just enjoying music again.

 

Sounds like you are in a similar position to myself David. I have spent hours relistening to albums I have not heard in years and even the old favourites. Its the payoff for the money and effort spent. 

 

I was an early adoptor of streaming and I am embarrased to admit, MP3 so I made the stupid mistake of getting rid of my CD collection years ago and my vinyl went years before that. only to find since investing in the SACD player and turntable that I am rediscovering how much physical media still has to offer.

 

Particularly CD's as some of them still sound so bloody good and can be had for peanuts on Marketplace! 

 

Vinyl I am definately enjoying but am still not 100% convinced the juice is worth the squeeze...

18 minutes ago, S1000XR said:

 

I wonder if that Alan Parsons comment dates back to times where nearly every houshold had a stereo system as part of their everyday lives as opposed to someone listening to Dark Side of the Moon on a JBL bluetooth speaker and raving to their friends about the sound quality! 😉

 

 

I suspect it may have been in response to the rather pretentious, po faced British HiFi journalists that prevailed through the 80s who extolled the virtues of tiny, bandwidth limited, two way speakers that "played music" and 30 watt amplifiers with "ample power", that were only of consequence if they were built in Wales or Scotland. In which his derision was entirely justified. 😁

6 minutes ago, S1000XR said:

 

Sounds like you are in a similar position to myself David. I have spent hours relistening to albums I have not heard in years and even the old favourites. Its the payoff for the money and effort spent. 

 

I was an early adoptor of streaming and I am embarrased to admit, MP3 so I made the stupid mistake of getting rid of my CD collection years ago and my vinyl went years before that. only to find since investing in the SACD player and turntable that I am rediscovering how much physical media still has to offer.

 

Particularly CD's as some of them still sound so bloody good and can be had for peanuts on Marketplace! 

 

Vinyl I am definately enjoying but am still not 100% convinced the juice is worth the squeeze...

 

I won't get to enjoy listening to my cd collection (and buying new cd's) until I finish my new system, as my old system is partially boxed up ready for sale. But i'm confiding my planned system will get me off the merry go round and land me where a lot of older and wiser SNA'ers end up (ie: with high efficiency speakers and SET), though in my case with an sacd transport/dac as my main source in lieu of vinyl.

4 minutes ago, David A said:

 

I won't get to enjoy listening to my cd collection (and buying new cd's) until I finish my new system, as my old system is partially boxed up ready for sale. But i'm confiding my planned system will get me off the merry go round and land me where a lot of older and wiser SNA'ers end up (ie: with high efficiency speakers and SET), though in my case with an sacd transport/dac as my main source in lieu of vinyl.

 

So are you selling everything and starting from scratch or are you holding onto some legacy piece/s? 

 

Its a big undertaking. Exciting though! 

 

What do you have in mind? 

8 minutes ago, S1000XR said:

 

So are you selling everything and starting from scratch or are you holding onto some legacy piece/s? 

 

Its a big undertaking. Exciting though! 

 

What do you have in mind? 

Yeah my whole system down to my CMS iso feet and even Furutech wpo will either be put up for sale or traded up. I'm keeping my specific plans under wraps until I finish building my new system. But my updated avatar and profile pic will give you a hint.

 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by David A

6 minutes ago, David A said:

Yes my whole system down to my CMS iso feet and even Furutech wpo will all be put up for sale or traded up. I'm keeping my specific plans under wraps until I finish building my new rig. But my updated avatar and profile pic will give you a hint.

 

Zu? They do make some cool looking speakers. 

 

Forgive me if I am wrong! 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by S1000XR

1 minute ago, S1000XR said:

 

Zu? They do make some cool looking speakers. 

 

Nope. The speakers are made in Canada.

Just now, David A said:

 

Nope. The speakers are made in Canada.

 

I look forward to seeing the end result!

1 minute ago, David A said:

 

Nope. The speakers are made in Canada.

They always made a point of saying that their products are made in Ogden Utah ( USA )

4 minutes ago, rantan said:

They always made a point of saying that their products are made in Ogden Utah ( USA )

 

Zu are made in the US but I think its a different Canadian speaker manufacturer David has in mind. 

 

Is that a Roxette quote @rantan ?? NICE !! 🤯

1 hour ago, S1000XR said:

 

Zu are made in the US but I think its a different Canadian speaker manufacturer David has in mind. 

 

 

Yep.

  

1 hour ago, S1000XR said:

 

I look forward to seeing the end result!

 

I'll quietly post a System thread when my new system is finally finished. I realise vinylphiles probably won't like it because it will be a digital-only system. But atleast it will include high efficiency speakers and valves.

 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by David A

Dupe post. Mods pls delete.

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by David A

3 minutes ago, David A said:

 

I'll quietly post a System thread when my new system is finally finished. I realise the vinylphiles probably won't like it because it will be a digital-only system. But atleast it will include high efficiency speakers and valves.

I have only auditioned valve amps and not owned one but I wasn’t blown away like i felt I should have been. It was with Klipsh heritage speakers while listening to vinyl and while it was warm and nostalgic sounding, I don’t think I would want it as my primary system. 
 

I am probably showing my lack of a sophisticated ear but I prefer a more modern sound. 
 

Maybe my tastes will change over time. 

…don’t be upset 😌.  I had similar sentiments, having been lead to believe valve amps were the holy grail.  I was fortunate enough to visit the home of a doctor here in Melbourne who custom built a three way active horn system running valve amps and that was something to behold but for me, with less sensitive commercial speakers it just didn’t cut the mustard.

@Lil Caesar Yes it's all about synergy. And some valves will sound better than others with a given speaker. The Designer of the speakers I plan to buy told me his speakers sound best with 45 and 2a3 valves, and will sing with as little as 3 watts. Fortunately there are new production valves available in those variants (incl: 274B rectifiers) which are quite exceptional. And a talented designer could get the best out of that topology.

12 minutes ago, Lil Caesar said:

…don’t be upset 😌.  I had similar sentiments, having been lead to believe valve amps were the holy grail.  I was fortunate enough to visit the home of a doctor here in Melbourne who custom built a three way active horn system running valve amps and that was something to behold but for me, with less sensitive commercial speakers it just didn’t cut the mustard.

Interesting that it isn’t only me. Don’t get me wrong it did sound excellent and in a certain mood and with certain genres it would be fantastic to have that setup as an option but for mine it isn’t versatile enough. 
 

i am not a big fan of red wine either so clearly i am a heathen with zero taste 🤣😂🤣

5 minutes ago, David A said:

@Lil Caesar Yes it's all about synergy. And some valves will sound better than others with a given speaker. The Designer of the speakers I plan to buy told me his speakers sound best with 45 and 2a3 valves, and will sing with as little as 3 watts. Fortunately there are new production valves available in those variants (incl: 274B rectifiers) which are quite exceptional. And a talented designer could get the best out of that topology.

Like all things in hifi, the devil is always in the detail. Sounds like you have done your homework. I am sure it will sound epic. 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by S1000XR

42 minutes ago, S1000XR said:

I have only auditioned valve amps and not owned one but I wasn’t blown away like i felt I should have been. It was with Klipsh heritage speakers while listening to vinyl and while it was warm and nostalgic sounding, I don’t think I would want it as my primary system. 
 

I am probably showing my lack of a sophisticated ear but I prefer a more modern sound. 
 

Maybe my tastes will change over time. 

 

From my experience some speakers simply sound better with either solid state or tube amps, which comes down to their efficiency and how they were voiced. At last year's SNA show I heard the Kudos Audio Titan 505 stand mounts in the Audio Magic room, which were paired with a 50w Copland CTA-407 tube integrated, Lumin’s T3 Network Player and L2 Music Library as source. The sound was utterly natural, musical and got my feet tapping. That room got my (and many other show-goer's) BOS.

 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by David A

35 minutes ago, David A said:

 

From my experience some speakers simply sound better with either solid state or tube amps, which comes down to their efficiency and how they were voiced. At last year's SNA show I heard the Kudos Audio Titan 505 stand mounts in the Audio Magic room, which were paired with a 50w Copland CTA-407 tube integrated, Lumin’s T3 Network Player and L2 Music Library as source. The sound was utterly natural, musical and got my feet tapping. That room got my (and many other show-goer's) BOS.

 

It certainly makes sense that lower sensitivity more modern speaker designs that generally are trying to get higher outputs from more compact cabinets with smaller drivers would pair better with higher power solid state amplification. 
 

Higher sensitivity designs with more generous driver and cabinet sizes would generally be a more suitable load for tube applications.

 

Obviously there are exceptions but is this a fair statement? 
 

i have only heard vinyl through tubes so it would be interesting to hear a quality digital source via a tube based system. 
 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2025Jun 27 by S1000XR