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Posted (edited)

They just don't know when to stop their technical development.

I did a search to find just to see about their EV development and manufacture, we're in for a big shock over the next couple of years also, so is Tesla.

Anyway here this  dac.  https://tinyurl.com/285a5d7c

or https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-do200-pro-dac-review.60095/

 

Enjoy 

Cheers George

 

Edited by georgehifi

Posted
  On 17/01/2025 at 6:50 PM, georgehifi said:

They just don't know when to stop their technical development.

I did a search to find just to see about their EV development and manufacture, we're in for a big shock over the next couple of years, so is Tesla.

Anyway here this dac.  https://tinyurl.com/285a5d7c

or https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-do200-pro-dac-review.60095/

 

Enjoy 

Cheers George

 

Expand  

 

Iam confused George. SMSL is an audio company. Are they launching an EV???

Posted (edited)
  On 17/01/2025 at 7:27 PM, AudioGeek said:

Iam confused George. SMSL is an audio company. Are they launching an EV???

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No racism intended, if that's what your getting at, I'd use the same wording if it were us (Aussies) or the USA (Yanks).

Just that they (Chinese) are into everything in a big way, dacs/audio are a small part,  There are (over 100 different EV makes they'll have this year)   

 

Cheers George

Edited by georgehifi
Posted
  On 17/01/2025 at 7:27 PM, AudioGeek said:

 

Iam confused George. SMSL is an audio company. Are they launching an EV???

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George's threads are almost always pointless and confusing.  That's his thing.

Posted (edited)

🤦‍♂️The title and this sentence in the first post is all you need "if your that confused" I'm sure others aren't.  The rest is just a comparison on what is going on in the EV industry over there.

 

Anyway here this dac.  https://tinyurl.com/285a5d7c

or https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-do200-pro-dac-review.60095/

 

Enjoy 

Cheers George

 

 

 

 

Edited by georgehifi

  • Volunteer
Posted

Sorry @georgehifi, it is confusing. 
Can you please let me know if this thread is about EVs or DACs?

If it’s the former, I’ll move it to the appropriate spot. If it’s the latter then it belongs here (but will be moved if it keeps going down the EV path). 
 

Posted (edited)

Muon was fine with it. 

It's the correct forum.

It's about the heading "another new dac", yet again from China, (with a passing comparison made to how they (the Chinese) are also taking over the EV reins! as well) 

Not hard at all. (talk about some making a mountain out of a molehill🤦‍♂️

 

Cheers George 

Edited by georgehifi
  • Like 6
Posted

Yeah, dacs have been solved for a while now. So many inexpensive options with near perfect measured performance. Pick one with the features you need. Lots now with sub output, DSP, even streaming capability. Then amps are solved, and now even speakers.

 

Like cars, dont need to spend huge amounts for amazing performance.

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:23 AM, AudioGeek said:

Yeah, dacs have been solved for a while now. So many inexpensive options with near perfect measured performance. Pick one with the features you need.

Expand  

 

But some sound better than others (even though they measure the same)!  :shocked:

 

To my way of thinking ... sounding better is more valuable than measuring better!

 

  On 18/01/2025 at 10:23 AM, AudioGeek said:

... and now even speakers.

Expand  

 

In what way are spkrs 'solved'?

 

  On 18/01/2025 at 10:23 AM, AudioGeek said:

Like cars, don't need to spend huge amounts for amazing performance.

Expand  

 

Que??  So I wouldn't get "more amazing" performance swapping my Golf cabrio (which I find amazing!) for say, a Maserati MC20?

 

Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:45 AM, andyr said:

 

 

 

Que??  So I wouldn't get "more amazing" performance swapping my Golf cabrio (which I find amazing!) for say, a Maserati MC20?

 

Expand  


Given Maserati are one of the most unreliable vehicle manufacturers on the planet and their reprehensible quality control is legendary, I would guess you would be swapping a reliable vehicle for a very expensive unreliable shitbox.

Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:58 AM, POV said:

Given Maserati are one of the most unreliable vehicle manufacturers on the planet and their reprehensible quality control is legendary, I would guess you would be swapping a reliable vehicle for a very expensive unreliable shitbox.

Expand  

 

Aah, OK ... I'll keep my 12-yr old Golf.  (It is reliable.)  :smile:

 

I assume Maserati unreliability is the main reason drug lords buy Lambos?

 

Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 11:04 AM, andyr said:

 

Aah, OK ... I'll keep my 12-yr old Golf.  (It is reliable.)  :smile:

 

I assume Maserati unreliability is the main reason drug lords buy Lambos?

 

Expand  

 

More of a status thing!   Look what ive got!    If you work on anything thats manufactured in the EU,  youre likely never to buy stuff made there.  

Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:45 AM, andyr said:

Que??  So I wouldn't get "more amazing" performance swapping my Golf cabrio (which I find amazing!) for say, a Maserati MC20?

Expand  

No need to go anywhere near that expense... just fit a bigger rubber band... 🤣

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:45 AM, andyr said:

But some sound better than others (even though they measure the same)!  :shocked:

 

To my way of thinking ... sounding better is more valuable than measuring better!

Expand  

 

Fortunately for you there are loads of more expensive dacs in the market. Find the one that sounds "better" to you and go for it!

Enjoy!

Posted (edited)

Seems to me some here want to get rid of threads with off topic carry on that are anything ASR measurement related especially if it's Chinese

 

Show of hands please, should I ask Zingy to shut this thread down, and I'll start a new one to see if it stays "non toxic"?

 

Cheers George

Edited by georgehifi
Posted (edited)
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:45 AM, andyr said:
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:23 AM, AudioGeek said:

Yeah, dacs have been solved for a while now. So many inexpensive options with near perfect measured performance. Pick one with the features you need.

Expand  

But some sound better than others (even though they measure the same)!  :shocked:

To my way of thinking ... sounding better is more valuable than measuring better!

Expand  

"To my way of thinking ... sounding better is more valuable than measuring better!"

 

I think so too, I have a discrete MSB R2R dac and it doesn't measure anywhere near as good as this Delta Sigma 12 x CS43131 D/A chips paralleled, but "I believe" it would  still sound better.

 

And I proved to myself before it by getting the Topping D90se Delta Sigma 8 x ESS top pro d/a converters in parallel similar Deta Sigma dac as this SMSL (which did sound very good), and which also  excels in measurements just like this SMSL does, compared to the MSB R2R, yet the MSB sounded better to me. (sweeter/more body/more transparent and more dynamic than the Topping did.

 

Cheers George

Edited by georgehifi
  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

The latest DACs from China all sound very similar to each other, SMSL, Topping, et al. Designed to measure superlatively they sound very "clean", rather stark in the treble, with a homogenous tonality across the frequency range. This highlights a "clear" soundstage where "detail" is served up in spades. Unfortunately the timbre of instruments is neutralised, distinctions in the character of recordings minimised, making for a rather bland listening experience. You only have to go to a live concert to realise how unnatural this sound signature is.

 

In general I welcome the burgeoning ChiFi industry over the past decade and the healthy competition it has provided. Advances in technology have driven down prices in the budget segment—class D amps and all manner of DACs. This is a great way to entice and expose new / younger people to hifi. 

 

But personally I see the value in the Chinese market in older technlogy such as R2R DACs and "copycat" class A / AB power amplifiers.

 

 

 

Edited by was_a
  • Like 1

Posted (edited)
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:39 PM, was_a said:

The latest DACs from China all sound very similar to each other, SMSL, Topping, et al. Designed to measure superlatively they sound very "clean", rather stark in the treble, with a homogenous tonality across the frequency range. This highlights a "clear" soundstage where "detail" is served up in spades. Unfortunately the timbre of instruments is neutralized, distinctions in the character of recordings minimized, making for a rather bland listening experience. You only have to go to a live concert to realize how unnatural this sound signature is.

Expand  

 

True I hear it live also when I'm at the Opera House, compared to these "Delta Sigma" based dac's.

 

MoJo Music once said, "most digital recorded music is recorded in PCM, and only R2R multibit based dacs they said are able to convert it "bit perfect", where as Delta Sigma based dacs can only give a "facsimile" of it." I posted up a link to it years ago when ESS first made their Delta Sigma appearance into audiophile dacs.

 

This kinda says to me as an example, it's like looking the at the real Mona Lisa (perfect), then looking at a very high res facsimile of it.

 

And that just the couple of worse distortions that good R2R dacs do give, don't over shadow the sound differences in of conversion processes of PCM itself between Delta Sigma vs R2R. There must be other measurements yet to be discovered that maybe one day may show this.

 

Cheers George 

Edited by georgehifi
Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:39 PM, was_a said:

The latest DACs from China all sound very similar to each other, SMSL, Topping, et al. Designed to measure superlatively they sound very "clean", rather stark in the treble, with a homogenous tonality across the frequency range. This highlights a "clear" soundstage where "detail" is served up in spades. Unfortunately the timbre of instruments is neutralised, distinctions in the character of recordings minimised, making for a rather bland listening experience. You only have to go to a live concert to realise how unnatural this sound signature is.

Expand  


I’m curious if this is a comment you are making from personal experience with a broad range of ‘the latest DACs from China’ or if it’s more an assumption.  I keep seeing people post here things like ‘all Topping DACs sound the same’, yet I have 3 here and they all sound materially different to me, including tone and timbre.

Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 10:45 AM, andyr said:

But some sound better than others (even though they measure the same)! 

Expand  

I don't get this statement. If they measure the same, then they will sound the same. If they don't sound the same then there is something wrong with your measurements, you are measuring the wrong thing, or the difference has to do with something else that has changed.

 

Or you maybe should have worded your post as:

 

  Quote

But, to me, some sound better than others (even though they measure the same)!

Expand  

 

Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 11:12 PM, POV said:


I’m curious if this is a comment you are making from personal experience with a broad range of ‘the latest DACs from China’ or if it’s more an assumption.  I keep seeing people post here things like ‘all Topping DACs sound the same’, yet I have 3 here and they all sound materially different to me, including tone and timbre.

Expand  

 

And they would, different DAC chip, opamps, passive components used........etc etc.    

Posted
  On 18/01/2025 at 11:19 PM, bob_m_54 said:

I don't get this statement.

 

If they measure the same, then they will sound the same. If they don't sound the same then there is something wrong with your measurements, you are measuring the wrong thing, or the difference has to do with something else that has changed.

Expand  

 

Agreed.  👍

 

But ... are the measurements which reviewers take ... the right ones?

 

For instance - comparing the sound from the spkrs when two different amps drive them (this was a real occurrence):

  • one amp produces a soundstage which has depth (ie. from the plane of the spkrs backwards)
  • the other amp has the singer appearing to be more than a metre in front of the spkrs!

 

What do you measure, to explain this difference between the 2 amps?

 

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