Willsenton R8 Owners & Discussion Thread

[Wisker]

Good catch......

[08Boss302]

So yesterday I tried the 4ohm taps.  Baring in mind I am still using the Willsenton tubes and would not have 100hrs up yet.

Initially I thought not a huge change but after about 20min once the amp had warmed up I noticed some more depth in the lower end, not as dramatic but equal to a small turn of the bass dial.  I went back to 8ohm tap and as the amp was already at operating temp I figured the difference should be noticeable. 

What I found was a no different to other replies in that the 8ohm tap was not embarrassed and still sound very very nice but given speakers can dip to 3.2ohm using the 4ohm tap didnt take anything away from higher frequencies and I still got all that "tubeeeness" but did get a bit more fill-in/impact with lower bass frequencies. 

Being a listener of heavy metal with a lot of fast double kick bass and that thick bottom end sound I found it very much to my liking.  I'll listen to some more over the next 5 days now we are in lockdown again and make my mind up some more but thus far unless I am told there is potential for damage or over heating etc that slight bump in lower end without giving up anything elsewhere is a winner...

 

Of course, once  I get around to rolling tubes I can also switch taps again should the bottom end get flabby or over bearing.  I guess its another level of flexibility and one that costs nothing but about 20seconds of my time.

 

Cheers.

[Zed Zed]

2 hours ago, 08Boss302 said:

So yesterday I tried the 4ohm taps.  Baring in mind I am still using the Willsenton tubes and would not have 100hrs up yet.

Initially I thought not a huge change but after about 20min once the amp had warmed up I noticed some more depth in the lower end, not as dramatic but equal to a small turn of the bass dial.  I went back to 8ohm tap and as the amp was already at operating temp I figured the difference should be noticeable. 

What I found was a no different to other replies in that the 8ohm tap was not embarrassed and still sound very very nice but given speakers can dip to 3.2ohm using the 4ohm tap didnt take anything away from higher frequencies and I still got all that "tubeeeness" but did get a bit more fill-in/impact with lower bass frequencies. 

 

This seems to be a function of the difference in damping factor when using the 4 ohm taps with 8 ohm speakers. I find the bass to be a little more deep and tighter, better controlled. Like the amp has a slightly better grip on the woofers. I am not seeing any downside at all to using the 4 ohm taps. You do lose a little power, but that isn't an issue for me as I can get the SPLs I want without any trouble. I also notice a little more beauty in the mid range too - a little more expression in the singer's voice (I notice this mostly with vocals) but that may be my combination of equipment and will differ for everyone. I have also rolled the 6SL7 tubes with NOS Sylvania 6SL7GT tubes and these added some sweetness too. (I have about 140 hours on the amp now, with about 20 or so on the new tubes). I am waiting for three Tung Sol 6SN7 GTBs and four EH 6CA7 Fat Bottles and will see what this difference this makes to the overall sound. I will try the various combinations with the 8 ohm taps too, but I doubt if I will go back there as I just see no downsides.

 

2 hours ago, 08Boss302 said:

Being a listener of heavy metal with a lot of fast double kick bass and that thick bottom end sound I found it very much to my liking.  I'll listen to some more over the next 5 days now we are in lockdown again and make my mind up some more but thus far unless I am told there is potential for damage or over heating etc that slight bump in lower end without giving up anything elsewhere is a winner...

 

According to every source I have found (and I spent a ton of time researching this) there is no potential for damage to your amp. I also conducted my own tests for any overheating (see earlier post) and there is no significant difference in the temperatures of the output transformers and power transformer, even after 12 hours continuous running.

 

2 hours ago, 08Boss302 said:

 

Of course, once  I get around to rolling tubes I can also switch taps again should the bottom end get flabby or over bearing.  I guess its another level of flexibility and one that costs nothing but about 20seconds of my time.

 

Cheers.

 

Absolutely. Amazing flexibility with these amps. I can't believe that I have been into hi-fi for decades and only just discovered tube amps! So much better than SS where what you get is what you get - the ability to fine tune the sound to exactly what I want is fabulous.

[08Boss302]

54 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

 

 

 

 

According to every source I have found (and I spent a ton of time researching this) there is no potential for damage to your amp. I also conducted my own tests for any overheating (see earlier post) and there is no significant difference in the temperatures of the output transformers and power transformer, even after 12 hours continuous running.

 

I did read through your temp tests and that gave me further confidence to trial the 4ohm taps.  Later today I'll play some cds, stream and also vinyl and see if the same result exixts.  I am particularly keen to spin some vinyl this way!!!

[Zed Zed]

Vinyl was made for this amp!

[Fal]

I am running my R8 with Tung Sol El34 reissues. Overall, I like the EL34's better than the Willsenton stock RT88's. I was curious how upgraded KT88's like the Gold Lions might sound or some Kt77's or 6550's? I am driving a pair of Salk HT2-TL speakers.  Thanks for any insight. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Fal

[muon*]

................

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[xlr8or]

4 hours ago, Fal said:

I am running my R8 with Tung Sol El34 reissues. Overall, I like the EL34's better than the Willsenton stock RT88's. I was curious how upgraded KT88's like the Gold Lions might sound or some Kt77's or 6550's? I am driving a pair of Salk HT2-TL speakers.  Thanks for any insight. 

 

If you're looking at using new production power tubes my vote goes towards the Genalex Gold Lion KT88's, EH 6550's and Genalex Gold Lion KT77's.

 

Allow 100 hours minimum burn-in time before assessing the tonal character of each power tube type that is rolled. After the 200-hour mark, you will be floating off somewhere in la-la land.

[Zed Zed]

OMG. Talk about rabbit holes. I just bought a tube DAC! Interested to see how well this partners the R8. Also bought two new tubes to go with it!

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Zed Zed

[Wisker]

I have a tube amp - tube pre - and now I need to get a tube dac, where does it end Zed,  where -  where ........  

[Zed Zed]

21 hours ago, Wisker said:

I have a tube amp - tube pre - and now I need to get a tube dac, where does it end Zed,  where -  where ........  

 

 

Bankruptcy court? 

[Zed Zed]

On 14/02/2021 at 3:13 PM, Wisker said:

I have a tube amp - tube pre - and now I need to get a tube dac, where does it end Zed,  where -  where ........  

 

Bloody good question mate. I just bought a tube phono stage off eBay . . .   

 

Icon Audio is a respected UK valve manufacturer brand - their newest valve phono stages are a bit rich for my budget - this one is the predecessor to the brilliantly reviewed later version.  Uses the same tubes and topology. And the all-black look complements my R8 nicely.

 

When this, and the Musical Paradise tube DAC arrives, I will tubes all the way!   Phono stage, DAC, pre/power amp! Tubes, tubes, tubes.

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Zed Zed

[Zed Zed]

In other news, I have now rolled all 5 of the front tubes since my Tung Sol 6SN7 GTBs arrived today, along with the EH 6CA7 Fat Boys. I will evaluate the 6SN7s first before I install the Fat Boys. Initial impressions with the TS 6NS7s are good - a nice airy sound with maybe a slightly smoother higher end. Too early to say, and the tubes need some hours putting on them.

 

Overall, my experience with the R8 just gets better and better and better. I am blown away by the SQ I am experiencing.

[Wisker]

8 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

In other news, I have now rolled all 5 of the front tubes since my Tung Sol 6SN7 GTBs arrived today, along with the EH 6CA7 Fat Boys. I will evaluate the 6SN7s first before I install the Fat Boys. Initial impressions with the TS 6NS7s are good - a nice airy sound with maybe a slightly smoother higher end. Too early to say, and the tubes need some hours putting on them.

 

Overall, my experience with the R8 just gets better and better and better. I am blown away by the SQ I am experiencing.

Looking forward to your thoughts on those, I'm still burning mine in and looking at maybe dabbling with some power tubes later, Prolly stick with some KT 88's  flavor for now. The pre amp section for now sounds sweet. I bought this amp to replace my vintage Rotel amp, and out of the box the difference was very noticeable. Once I can listen some more Ill give my assessment on the R8 but so far im very pleased,  Prices are going up and they can barley keep these in stock,  Me thinks there could be more members here with this amp,.. 

[xlr8or]

Where does it end? It doesn't. One of each you reckon. Try more like a dozen of each. My addiction continues as I like counting 'me' eggs in many baskets. Not only am I rolling my toobs but my toob power/intergrated amps as well.

 

Fully owned:

 

Luxkit A3600 (KT120's)

Michaelson & Austin Mentmore TVA-1 (6550's)

Conrad Johnson MV50 (EL34's)

Trio W45A monoblocks (EL84's)

Weston Acoustics Tweaker MkIv (6550's)

Weston Acoustics Tempest (KT88's)

Sun Valley SV-2 2002 (845's)

Sound Reference Valve Amp (6550's)

Dynaco ST70 (EL34's)

Golden Tude Audio 300B monos (300B's)

 

Jointly owned:

 

Sun Audio SV-2A3 (2A3's)

Triode Corp TRV-M300SE monoblocks (300B's)

 

Don't ask about preamps, phono stages, DACs, CD or MD players as it's about the same number there as well. And yes before you ask they also have toobs ranging from 9-pin minis all the way through to 8-pin octals.

 

Long live tubes!

Edited February 15, 2021 by xlr8or

[Zed Zed]

4 hours ago, Wisker said:

Looking forward to your thoughts on those, I'm still burning mine in and looking at maybe dabbling with some power tubes later, Prolly stick with some KT 88's  flavor for now. The pre amp section for now sounds sweet. I bought this amp to replace my vintage Rotel amp, and out of the box the difference was very noticeable. Once I can listen some more Ill give my assessment on the R8 but so far im very pleased,  Prices are going up and they can barley keep these in stock,  Me thinks there could be more members here with this amp,.. 

 

I like the look of those big fat guys in the 6SN7 positions. What are they?

 

I like my new 6SL7s (Tung Sol) and NOS 6SL7s (Sylvania) at the front and they seem to play nice with the KT88s (stock). I will try the new 6CA7 Fat Boys once I have accustomed myself to the new set at the front, but I am liking the KT88s right now for sure.

 

I hope that Thomas guy is on commission   He must be responsible for all these sales, thanks to his glowing YT review.

[Wisker]

1 hour ago, Zed Zed said:

 

I like the look of those big fat guys in the 6SN7 positions. What are they?

 

I like my new 6SL7s (Tung Sol) and NOS 6SL7s (Sylvania) at the front and they seem to play nice with the KT88s (stock). I will try the new 6CA7 Fat Boys once I have accustomed myself to the new set at the front, but I am liking the KT88s right now for sure.

 

I hope that Thomas guy is on commission   He must be responsible for all these sales, thanks to his glowing YT review.

Those are the  PSVANE CV181-T II T-Collection that I added in when it got ordered,  I cant  confirm that the 6SL's   { the small one's }   are an upgrade or not  They are Wilsenton's   tho.. 

The NOS Sylvania's are going in there anyway, 

[Zed Zed]

I notice that when I swapped my 6SN7s for the replacement Tung Sol tubes, a small channel imbalance disappeared and the image is now dead-centre (when it should be). Is this possible? Is it possible that the stock Willsenton CSN7 tubes could create a small channel imbalance?

[xlr8or]

It's very possible with mass produced Chinese tubes that are thrown in new and not tested.

 

Have you swapped around the former set to see if the imbalance follows the swap to confirm it's in fact the tube?

[Zed Zed]

23 hours ago, xlr8or said:

It's very possible with mass produced Chinese tubes that are thrown in new and not tested.

 

Have you swapped around the former set to see if the imbalance follows the swap to confirm it's in fact the tube?

 

Thanks Kirk. I haven't tried swapping the original Willsentons over but will do so next time I am rolling some tubes (which will be when I install the 6CA7 Fat Boys), just to check the theory. The slight channel imbalance has gone since I installed the Tung Sols in the 6SN7 locations, so no worries.

 

I am going to leave things as they are for a while - I am in danger of changing too many things at once and confusing myself as to what affects what sound and how. Recently I have swapped the 6SN7s mentioned above, and the NOS 6SL7s, plus switching over to my new Musical Paradise Tube DAC and, arriving this week will be my Icon Audio Tube Phono Stage. Plus the Fat Boys which are still sitting in their boxes. All great fun though

Edited February 17, 2021 by Zed Zed

[Zed Zed]

UPDATE.

 

I have been evaluating my tube DAC (Musical Paradise) and my all-valve phono stage (Icon Audio PS 1.2) for a few days now.

 

The DAC replaces my SMSL SU-9 MQA all-bells-all-whistles unit, so I lose the ability to do a full unfold of MQA on Tidal. I am not currently seeing this as any loss. The MP DAC has a lovely, liquid mid-range, plenty of detail and smooth, clean highs. I think this is probably as good as digital gets without spending a fortune more. The MP DAC makes Tidal sound almost analogue-like, which is all I could ask for I guess. The SMSL unit always had a slight 'sheen' to the sound, a sort of 'digital gloss'. It was never all that pronounced but when I switched over to the turntable, it was noticeable there by its absence. The MP makes Tidal a very pleasant listening experience and would, I think, suit most people for all of their music needs.

 

The phono stage from Icon Audio made a much bigger impact, compared with the Lehmann Black Cube SE, which in itself is a fantastically well-regarded phono preamp.  But the PS 1.2 is in a different league and it is apparent from the first track I played (Alison Krauss). Mid-range is gorgeous - warm without being dulled, detailed and clear without being hard. Treble is extended and sweet. Bass is less well-defined than the Black Cube, but is very pleasing to listen to nonetheless. Mids have that liquid quality and the whole presentation is extremely holographic. I feel I could walk all the way around Alison Krauss (a pleasant prospect in itself ) and between the instruments in the band. I doubt now there will be any going back to a SS phono stage for me.

 

Tubes in each unit are:

 

MP DAC - E88CC - Golden Lion (Thanks to @xlr8or for the correction)

Icon Audio PS 1.2 - ECC83 - Harma Retro and ECC81 (JJ).

 

Tubes matched in both cases.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Zed Zed

[echorec]

The PS1 MkII looks intriguing. I'll have to take a closer look at it. I'm toying with the idea of adding a tube phonostage to pair with the R8 this year. I currently have a McIntosh MP-100 Phonostage, which I love. It also suits my MC cart collection's loading needs very well. But I've always wondered how a tube phono would perform by comparison. I feel like, with the MP-100, I am on that threshold of diminishing returns, but there are some tube phonos teasing me now. Namely the Zesto Audio Andros II. Help! I can't climb out of the rabbit hole!

[Zed Zed]

3 hours ago, echorec said:

The PS1 MkII looks intriguing. I'll have to take a closer look at it. I'm toying with the idea of adding a tube phonostage to pair with the R8 this year. I currently have a McIntosh MP-100 Phonostage, which I love. It also suits my MC cart collection's loading needs very well. But I've always wondered how a tube phono would perform by comparison. I feel like, with the MP-100, I am on that threshold of diminishing returns, but there are some tube phonos teasing me now. Namely the Zesto Audio Andros II. Help! I can't climb out of the rabbit hole!

 

I'm in that diminishing returns place too. But the fact is, although diminished, they are still returns. I was very happy with the Lehmann phono stage, but I am happier with the additional benefits I am hearing since adding the tube phono stage. I bought my PS 1.2 from eBay and got it for a good price, so it hasn't been a huge outlay for me - I will get most of the cost back when I sell the Lehmann. I researched it carefully and came to the conclusion, that the benefits of the current Icon Audio model are essentially the same as mine. There are some changes of course, but in essence it is the same. I buy most of my gear on the used market which makes it less painful when switching about.

 

I'd say that the tube phono stage brings a similar change to that which you get when you go from a SS amp to a tube amp. It's a similar change, over again. What you liked about the tube amp over the SS amp is what you will like about the tube phono stage. Note that I am not saying that the change is *better* (although, to me, it is). It is *different*. SS gear has its merits and whether you prefer tubes to transistors or vice-versa is a matter of personal taste. HST, I can't see someone who loved the move to a tube amp not feeling the same when moving to a tube phono preamp.

 

There's a good argument that upgrading should start always at the beginning - the source, because no amount of superior gear further down the chain can undo harm done before it. On this basis, we should start, I guess, with the cartridge and tonearm, then the table itself, then the phono stage, then the pre-amp and then the power amp and finally the speakers. I'm not sure if I totally agree with this, but I can see the logic of it, where each subsequent change builds on the step before it. So if you agree with that, then a superior phono stage (or DAC) has to be A Good Thing.

 

Have a quick read of this and see if what Icon Audio says makes sense to you:

 

https://iconaudio.com/route/images/products/333/PS1.2 Phono%2C 3x ECC83 User Manual.pdf

 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Zed Zed

[Zed Zed]

I checked out the Zesto Audio Andros II here - https://upscaleaudio.com/products/zesto-audio-andros-ii-phonostage

 

This is some serious gear and costs (new) several times more than I paid for mine. Reading the copy about the sound of the Andros, it's pretty much exactly how I'd describe the difference my modest PS 1.2 brought.

 

“Zesto Audio's phonostage [. . .] has solidity, dimensionality, vitality, transparency, excellent transient response, well-defined and extended bass, a superbly rich midrange, and very low noise [. . . ] deliciously smooth, unfatiguing highs.”

"Your highs will be crisp but not overly emphasized, your midranges clear and present without being shrill and your lows full and firm without being boomy."

 

That kinda sums up my feelings since installing the PS 1.2. Now the Zesto may give even more of those things of course. In fact, I would hope it does since it costs over $5,000 US. It may be that going from SS to tubes makes up 95% of the difference, and the last 5% is what you get when you spend five grand. Diminishing returns again!

 

I note it uses the Andros II tube types as mine!   Yay!

 

 

UPDATE II

 

I succumbed today and installed my EH 6CA7 Fat Boy power tubes

 

Listening impressions tomorrow when they have, er, a dozen hours on them

Edited February 20, 2021 by Zed Zed

[xlr8or]

Just a heads up that valves require the good bit of 100 hours or more burn-in time to reveal their true sonic signature.

 

Also, just a minor correction to the post above re E88C in use in the MP tube DAC. That should be E88CC as I know there are lurking eyes around  here who read and purchase what's quoted - these are 2 entirely different tubes.

Edited February 20, 2021 by xlr8or