caminperth Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Hi all, I had a friend drop in Monday night with their newly acquired Pathos Classic One hybrid amp and we tried it out on my B&W683's. The amp runs a valve/tube input stage into a 70w/ch SS output stage. Normally I've been running a Matrix DAC into a Emotiva XPA-2 which powers the speakers well enough, however I've been getting bored with the sound and thought that I would have to change speakers to get to the next step.. All I can say is that I was completely wrong. The Pathos brought out the B&W midrange that I have heard about. Bon Iver's Skinny Love sounded fantastic, as did Radiohead, Angus and Julia Stone and SBTRK. The Pathos was a little lacking in forward, big bass when compared with the Emo, however we are comparing 70W with over 200W.. I now understand that the B&W speakers can actually cover most types of music I listen to and that I need to instead work on the source... Hence this thread - I'm wanting to enter the valve world at a low price to see how it goes before I launch headlong. My budget is around $500-$800.. (maybe not enough?) I've seen this one locally on gumtree - http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/gwelup/audio/danyun-valve-amplifier/1027379708 - any thoughts on how it would work with a speaker with sensitivity of 90db? I've read quite a bit on these forums about people using minuscule amounts of valve power to run speakers to half decent levels. Alternatively I could got for a preamp and try to work with the Emo, however haven't found anything available locally that interests me yet. Looking forward to your suggestions.. Cheers, Cam 1
thoglette Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Hence this thread - I'm wanting to enter the valve world at a low price to see how it goes before I launch headlong. My budget is around $500-$800.. (maybe not enough?) On the Danyun. Hard to go too far wrong at that price! The similar Trafomatic Aries is about twice that RRP but will likely have better iron. 8W should be OK with 90db/w - but the B&W are not 8 ohm and may be speced 90db @ 2.83V (I live with 10W on 90db/w speakers) On the try-before-you-buy front Valvemark (based in WA) used to do in-home trials.
Upfront Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 What about bi amping if your worried about power. The Emo for the bottom end and something for the rest?
Dasher Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 I have been down this road and ended up trying three different styles of valve amps ranging from 8 to 80 watts. The SET 8 watt amp was great but I wasn't satisfied with more demanding music. It ended up dictating my music choice. I have settled on a push pull putting out 40 and I am much happier. Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
davewantsmoore Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 All I can say is that I was completely wrong. The Pathos brought out the B&W midrange that I have heard about. Bon Iver's Skinny Love sounded fantastic, as did Radiohead, Angus and Julia Stone and SBTRK. The Pathos was a little lacking in forward, big bass when compared with the Emo, however we are comparing 70W with over 200W.. This will potentially ruffle a lot of feathers... but Moving to an amplifier with a higher output impedance will cause the frequency response to follow the impedance curve of the speaker. Your speaker has a big impedance hump in the midrange... so this will cause the frequency response to have an elevated output in the midrange (potentially giving you the "B&W midrange"). Also, you will end up with a peak in the midbass, and less very low bass. NB - None of this is to rain on your parade, or say that valves are "bad" .... Just that there is no "magic". There a good reason you got a different sound, and it's not because valves are "better" in this case ..... The amplifiers interaction with the speaker has effectively inserted an EQ in your system. 3
davewantsmoore Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Push pull (lower output impedance probably), and plenty of power would be my recommend valve amp for these speakers. If biamping with wildly different amps.... You could find that one has the "EQ inserted" and one doesn't. Also amps can have different gains and sensitivities (especially the Emotiva which has a high gain) .... Careful.
Gordon Macfarlane Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) The biggest problem I see here ,Cam , is what you want to spend. You would be hard pressed to get a decent pre amp for that sorta money never mind a valve integrated. The amp you linked to on Gumtree is an unknown brand and with only 11watts is unlikely to produce much in the way of dynamics with the 683'S. My vote would go for a decent 2nd hand valve pre (should be able to get something decent under a grand) and keep the XPA2 to drive the 683's properly. Edited October 9, 2013 by Ozcall 2
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 NEVER assume that a valve amp (or a transistor amp) is automatically superior, because of the technology used. There are good valve amps and crappy valve amps, just as there are good SS amps and crappy SS amps. Building a good valve amp is always going to cost a lot more than an approximately equivalent SS amp, because decent output transformers are expensive. Unknown Chinese valve amps tend to employ crappy output transformers, since this is an area where costs can be cut and the consumer will never know. Until they listen, of course. I suggest you audition a range of amps (valve AND SS) before taking the plunge on an amp you've never heard. 4
LunA Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 With B&W you are glued on Solid States. You need a tube sounding SS. Try to look for a 2nd hand ME or Classe, Gryphon and Krell (neutral sounding).
Gordon Macfarlane Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 NEVER assume that a valve amp (or a transistor amp) is automatically superior, because of the technology used. There are good valve amps and crappy valve amps, just as there are good SS amps and crappy SS amps. Building a good valve amp is always going to cost a lot more than an approximately equivalent SS amp, because decent output transformers are expensive. Unknown Chinese valve amps tend to employ crappy output transformers, since this is an area where costs can be cut and the consumer will never know. Until they listen, of course. I suggest you audition a range of amps (valve AND SS) before taking the plunge on an amp you've never heard. A decent cap coupled valve pre with the XPA2 would get round the problem of expensive output transformers in a valve integrated.
Phantom Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) With B&W you are glued on Solid States. You need a tube sounding SS. Try to look for a 2nd hand ME or Classe, Gryphon and Krell (neutral sounding). With a budget of $500-800? Edited October 9, 2013 by Phantom
frankn Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 There recently was/is(?) a 2nd hand ME75 for around that price in the classifieds.
LHC Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 With B&W you are glued on Solid States. You need a tube sounding SS. Try to look for a 2nd hand ME or Classe, Gryphon and Krell (neutral sounding). Or try one of Hugh Dean's amps http://www.aksaonline.com/ 1
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 A decent cap coupled valve pre with the XPA2 would get round the problem of expensive output transformers in a valve integrated. The same caveats apply. NEVER assume that a valve (or SS) preamp is automatically superior. There are good valve preamps and crappy valve preamps, just as there are good SS preamps and crappy SS preamps. 3
Gordon Macfarlane Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 The same caveats apply. NEVER assume that a valve (or SS) preamp is automatically superior. There are good valve preamps and crappy valve preamps, just as there are good SS preamps and crappy SS preamps. I don't make that assumption Zaph, having had 30 yrs experience with both types of pre , which is why I said a decent valve pre. 1
niss_man Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Give Cafad a pm. He may still be selling his Jlti Yaqin modded amp. It sounds very very nice. May be a bit more than $800 though.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) I don't make that assumption Zaph, having had 30 yrs experience with both types of pre , which is why I said a decent valve pre. I understand that. My point is that a decent valve preamp will (or should) sound indistinguishable from a decent SS preamp. [ASIDE] What has catalysed my words, was a trip to JB Hi Fi. I was looking at some TV 'sound bars' for a client. The assistant showed me a Samsung. It was appallingly horrible. Another guy (the Samsung rep) was not pleased with my words and decided to take the time to educate me. He explained that, because the Samsung had valves in it, that it sounded better than the competition. There ensured a short discussion that he and I did not have time to complete. With some degree of irony, I located the best sounding sound bar. It was a Bose, of all things. Now I hate Bose, but this thing actually sounds pretty good and not a valve in sight. [MORAL] The presence of valves in a cheap audio product is purely a fashion statement. It has NOTHING to do with sound quality. Of course, the Samsung rep would not accept my opinion (based on 40 years + experience). Such is the life of an old fart. I get to be ignored by the young. [/RANT] Edited October 9, 2013 by Zaphod Beeblebrox 4
Viognier Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 You have not been ruined by valves, you have just been enlightened to what is possible with a different amplifier in your system. After all the Pathos still has a SS power amp section. It may be that is what contributed to your enjoyment. If you are hell bent on valves it's probably worthwhile trying to borrow a valve pre to try in your current setup. If that works then look out for a secondhand one in your price range and ideally try it in your system. Or save your pennies and buy a secondhand Pathos when one comes up. As a Pathos fan I constantly check out what's available on eBay and they come up regularly. Good luck. 1
Gordon Macfarlane Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 I understand that. My point is that a decent valve preamp will (or should) sound indistinguishable from a decent SS preamp. [ASIDE] What has catalysed my words, was a trip to JB Hi Fi. I was looking at some TV 'sound bars' for a client. The assistant showed me a Samsung. It was appallingly horrible. Another guy (the Samsung rep) was not pleased with my words and decided to take the time to educate me. He explained that, because the Samsung had valves in it, that it sounded better than the competition. There ensured a short discussion that he and I did not have time to complete. With some degree of irony, I located the best sounding sound bar. It was a Bose, of all things. Now I hate Bose, but this thing actually sounds pretty good and not a valve in sight. [MORAL] The presence of valves in a cheap audio product is purely a fashion statement. It has NOTHING to do with sound quality. Of course, the Samsung rep would not accept my opinion (based on 40 years + experience). Such is the life of an old fart. I get to be ignored by the young. [/RANT] " My point is that a decent valve preamp will (or should) sound indistinguishable from a decent SS preamp." I understand Zaph but imo they don't , they should , just like all properley designed power amps should sound the same : according to PW. 1
Gordon Macfarlane Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 GTG at Cams place! BYO amplifier!!! Got my drill press yesterday so busy doing the case work on my diyish AIKIDO preamp. Depending on timing could bring it along. Haven't counted up the cost yet but should be less than $1000.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 " My point is that a decent valve preamp will (or should) sound indistinguishable from a decent SS preamp." I understand Zaph but imo they don't , they should , just like all properley designed power amps should sound the same : according to PW. I have quite long experience with decent quality equipment (valve and SS). Whilst there are certainly detail differences between ALL pieces of high quality equipment, it is simply not correct to claim that high quality valve products are automatically superior to high quality SS products. FWIW: I have heard some (expensive) valve preamps that sound soft, warm and woolly. Others sounded steely and hard. Still others (notably the Conrad Johnson Premier 16) sounded utterly and completely neutral. Same deal with SS preamps. Some were warm and woolly, others, steely and hard, whilst others are completely neutral. Likewise, power amps. Just plonking a valve in a system does not make that system more listenable. Particularly, if the implementation is poor.
Peter_F Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 If you read the ad for the Danyun amplifier, the seller stated he is selling it because his speakers require more power. As the OP has a set of B&W 683's, he will be in the same boat as the seller IMO. I have owned 683's and they are a pig to adequately drive and control the bass and mid bass. The ad also stated it was an entry level amplifier. I think Rocky500 was selling a Naksa 100 power amp and that would be worth aiming for, along with a capable preamp IMO. Buying a 'low cost' valve amp AKA low quality, will yield low improvement, if any. 1
Gordon Macfarlane Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 I have quite long experience with decent quality equipment (valve and SS). Whilst there are certainly detail differences between ALL pieces of high quality equipment, it is simply not correct to claim that high quality valve products are automatically superior to high quality SS products. FWIW: I have heard some (expensive) valve preamps that sound soft, warm and woolly. Others sounded steely and hard. Still others (notably the Conrad Johnson Premier 16) sounded utterly and completely neutral. Same deal with SS preamps. Some were warm and woolly, others, steely and hard, whilst others are completely neutral. Likewise, power amps. Just plonking a valve in a system does not make that system more listenable. Particularly, if the implementation is poor. I think we are on the same page Zaph.
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