Oh, just something else to add to your room design recipe

 

Nearly all domestic ceiling heights are around 8 - 9ft (about 2+ M) - in the pro-audio world, ceilings are an option to add diffusion, absorption, etc and rarely have any height limitations as the vertical height is extremely useful in developing acoustical neutrality (in the overall sound) - I suggest you include this in your specifications, very few architects think beyond the basics, usually build costs and computer programming.

32 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said:

Since I have little to no clue on this subject ...

Yet you persist with the idea that fixing first reflection points with tilted side walls solves everything???  Do you realise that the first reflection points will still be there, a little higher on the side walls? And there are also first reflection points on the ceiling.

 

4 hours ago, Silent Screamer said:

Would know fairly quickly even with some quick measurements if there was any serious issues.

It requires much, much more than a few quick frequency measurements.  Modal ringing due to room modes will cause bass problems.  Are you prepared to learn how to do this properly? 

 

Are you prepared to go back to first principles, to get the dimensions of the room right, optimise the speaker locations and main listening position?  Getting all these things correct goes a long way.  

 

3 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

A few hours of advisory from an acoustic consultant is goign to be cheaper then dismantling or treating something that doesn't work.

Sound advice. 

 

A good accoustic consultant will focus on getting the basics right and likely not put much emphasis on tilted walls.  That will not please OP...

2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Yet you persist with the idea that fixing first reflection points with tilted side walls solves everything???  Do you realise that the first reflection points will still be there, a little higher on the side walls? And there are also first reflection points on the ceiling.

 

It requires much, much more than a few quick frequency measurements.  Modal ringing due to room modes will cause bass problems.  Are you prepared to learn how to do this properly? 

 

Are you prepared to go back to first principles, to get the dimensions of the room right, optimise the speaker locations and main listening position?  Getting all these things correct goes a long way.  

 

Sound advice. 

 

A good accoustic consultant will focus on getting the basics right and likely not put much emphasis on tilted walls.  That will not please OP...

 

I am not as rigid as you might think. You are several ideas behind. Tilted walls are only really practical when I was thinking about doing half a room. If I was to do music at one end and HT at the other that would make getting in and out of the room more complicated with a tilted wall and probably not happen. Besides I didn't say I was going to do that just pointing out that it was one of the ideas that didn't seem to have a drawback, not that it was a final idea. I probably wont make a final decision until after the house is built.

Been working on trying to get a bit more width into the room...

Obviously this is dependent on a rectangle room.

With limited height I can't really get near any of the known ratios without making the room much smaller.

 

4 hours ago, HdB said:

Oh, just something else to add to your room design recipe

 

Nearly all domestic ceiling heights are around 8 - 9ft (about 2+ M) - in the pro-audio world, ceilings are an option to add diffusion, absorption, etc and rarely have any height limitations as the vertical height is extremely useful in developing acoustical neutrality (in the overall sound) - I suggest you include this in your specifications, very few architects think beyond the basics, usually build costs and computer programming.

 

One of my greatest obstacles is regulations. I can only make the building a certain height based on ground level (that was why I was thinking of cutting a pit to get more height under a portion of the house). But that might be extremely dear because the property we own has a lot of sandstone on it, and that could wind up costing 10's of thousands to excavate. I would like a minimum of 3m under the lowest part of the house, but that comes down to overall height.

 

Where the property is located is under a "character area" designation which means I need to build to certain conditions like having a high pitch roof, which obviously limits my height for other things. The other thing I need to be mindful of is the stairs. If I go beyond a certain amount of stairs then I have to have a landing which might throw off the room size.

 

Everything seems to have a knock on effect.

Actually, from that table, you've allocated a height of 2.9metres (about 9.5ft) so that's manageable as you can fit the 'short skylines' without obstructions and will function reasonably well - the  room size of 12.8 x 6.8 m is also quite reasonable and should be suitable for various uses - a bit more width would come in handy but not a disaster by any means.   The upstairs seems very neatly laid out and some serious acoustical insulation in the sound lounge ceiling would be useful - just a detail ...

 

The Room mode calculator uses mathematical models and gives you the primary freq to look at and seems to between 60 odd and 120Hz - the quality of the walls and energy retention (particularly in this bass region) will determine how much of these frequencies will need to be absorbed - this does need some thought as skimping in this can create expensive absorption later on - you could design light weight walls between sound room and garage, for example, to help on that regard - the staircase can be a bit of a nuisance, not just for sound but heating/cooling etc.

 

I know it's fairly common to think that using a dsp in your system will solve all acoustical problems in a room but it isn't actually true - it'll help, no doubt, but why not avoid the problems wherever possible before laying a brick, eh!

 

My brother tiled the whole floor area of the downstairs Queenslander 'on stilts' house with the intention of an alternative living space and the acoustics are awful and using the dsp doesn't fix things all that much and needs ceiling absorption, low bass trapping (bloody expensive), diffusion and more - not much thought, huge expense.

 

As you seem to have considered most things, now would the time to start limiting the choices a bit and then see about a consultant to check what you might have missed, and there's sure to be something (there always seem to be!) 

I've not seen tilted walls to work any different than vertical ones but that's only in pro-audio situations (studio, theatre stages, bandstands, etc) - not all that sure it'd be much advantage in a domestic situation but worth a search on the net - someone will have tried it before - I do know that tapering the width, narrow to wide, etc and sloping the ceiling height, doesn't seam to be of any real benefit altho the modal program does show it does.

 

I'm betting that whatever architect/builder you get, nearly all of them will complain if things are different and try to change things to suit their own thinking.

 

All the best 

 

 

2 hours ago, Silent Screamer said:

I was thinking of cutting a pit

 Is your land well above flood level? Id hate for your stereo to get water damaged and flood heights keep breaking records.

2 hours ago, Nada said:

 Is your land well above flood level? Id hate for your stereo to get water damaged and flood heights keep breaking records.

 

Yes I am probably at least 20 meters above the highest flood levels.

3 hours ago, HdB said:

Actually, from that table, you've allocated a height of 2.9metres (about 9.5ft) so that's manageable as you can fit the 'short skylines' without obstructions and will function reasonably well - the  room size of 12.8 x 6.8 m is also quite reasonable and should be suitable for various uses - a bit more width would come in handy but not a disaster by any means.   The upstairs seems very neatly laid out and some serious acoustical insulation in the sound lounge ceiling would be useful - just a detail ...

 

The Room mode calculator uses mathematical models and gives you the primary freq to look at and seems to between 60 odd and 120Hz - the quality of the walls and energy retention (particularly in this bass region) will determine how much of these frequencies will need to be absorbed - this does need some thought as skimping in this can create expensive absorption later on - you could design light weight walls between sound room and garage, for example, to help on that regard - the staircase can be a bit of a nuisance, not just for sound but heating/cooling etc.

 

I know it's fairly common to think that using a dsp in your system will solve all acoustical problems in a room but it isn't actually true - it'll help, no doubt, but why not avoid the problems wherever possible before laying a brick, eh!

 

My brother tiled the whole floor area of the downstairs Queenslander 'on stilts' house with the intention of an alternative living space and the acoustics are awful and using the dsp doesn't fix things all that much and needs ceiling absorption, low bass trapping (bloody expensive), diffusion and more - not much thought, huge expense.

 

As you seem to have considered most things, now would the time to start limiting the choices a bit and then see about a consultant to check what you might have missed, and there's sure to be something (there always seem to be!) 

I've not seen tilted walls to work any different than vertical ones but that's only in pro-audio situations (studio, theatre stages, bandstands, etc) - not all that sure it'd be much advantage in a domestic situation but worth a search on the net - someone will have tried it before - I do know that tapering the width, narrow to wide, etc and sloping the ceiling height, doesn't seam to be of any real benefit altho the modal program does show it does.

 

I'm betting that whatever architect/builder you get, nearly all of them will complain if things are different and try to change things to suit their own thinking.

 

All the best 

 

 

 

Not sure I can get to the full 6.75m wide. That would bring me a bit too close to the plumbing in the ensuite. The other issue is I don't know how far I can span between poles. I figure I am going to need at least two of them in the HT room.

 

I would prefer to avoid room modes in the first place rather than try and correct them, so I might need to be creative in getting the right room size. More than likely won't go the slanted wall route. That would be too unpredictable.

What about building a room-within-a-room?

To form an acoustic space with movable walls for your music room. Then expand to be your HT / Play room?

Would take some thought but not impossible. 

1 hour ago, frankn said:

What about building a room-within-a-room?

To form an acoustic space with movable walls for your music room. Then expand to be your HT / Play room?

Would take some thought but not impossible. 

 

I was originally planning to double wall the whole area, but with recent building cost increases I figure it is going to cost me an additional $150,000 over what the house would have cost if my builder didn't stuff me around before things went crazy just to do the top part.

 

As it is I will no longer be able to afford a builder to build in down stairs (they wanted $150,000 before the increases to do a few walls downstairs) so this will be an addition to the house at a later date. While it wouldn't be super dear if I do it myself, the cost is now getting away from me to just do what I want let alone extras.

21 hours ago, Silent Screamer said:

I have little faith in so called experts... Not because there aren't good ones out there, just that I have run across so many in different trades that can't do the job as well as I can.

Living in Ipswich QLD, I doubt I am going to find anyone local that can provide any real expertise.

 

Since I have little to no clue on this subject perhaps an expert could help if I could find one. But are they just going to give me the same advice they repeat over and over, or are they going to be able to think outside the box? I have the opportunity to do something different, as the room will be constructed after the house is built. This is my biggest concern about getting outside help.

 

 

With no disrespect intended, I think this is a really bizarre mindset.  You admit that you have ‘no clue’ (your words) but don’t trust professional advice?  Sure there is range of expertise, experience, and service quality as there is in all professions and industries, but there is absolutely some fantastic businesses both here in Australia and elsewhere that provide first rate service in this space.

 

With what you are doing, you don’t need someone local, you don’t even need someone in the same country!  Everything you are pondering can be digitally modelled and you could get outstanding service without ever being in the same physical space as an acoustic engineer.

 

Your curiosity is great, but what you are pondering is complex, and if you proceed with DIY without the requisite knowledge you could very well end up with a highly problematic room that’s difficult to resolve issues with.

5 hours ago, POV said:

With no disrespect intended, I think this is a really bizarre mindset.  You admit that you have ‘no clue’ (your words) but don’t trust professional advice?  Sure there is range of expertise, experience, and service quality as there is in all professions and industries, but there is absolutely some fantastic businesses both here in Australia and elsewhere that provide first rate service in this space.

 

With what you are doing, you don’t need someone local, you don’t even need someone in the same country!  Everything you are pondering can be digitally modelled and you could get outstanding service without ever being in the same physical space as an acoustic engineer.

 

Your curiosity is great, but what you are pondering is complex, and if you proceed with DIY without the requisite knowledge you could very well end up with a highly problematic room that’s difficult to resolve issues with.

 

And it is for that very reason that I am backing away from the edge and revisiting conventional and proven methods. I have always been an out of the box thinker, and when opportunity presents itself to try something a little off the beaten path then I am not scared to investigate it.

 

HOWEVER... I am also mindful of change for changes sake. And I don't want to fall into the trap of just doing something different just because it is different. There has to be a clearly defined benefit for wandering off the path. In this particular case I don't currently feel like there is a clear benefit.

 

The problem is most people think in conventional ways, and it takes a bit of discussion to get past "this is the way it has always been done". I mean if we were to stay in that mind set we would still be living in caves. So some discussion is necessary to get passed that point and for people to look beyond the way things are currently done.

 

Despite what people think I don't get stuck on this is the answer, I may favour a particular path, but it is far from fixed until such time as it happens. I look at data and idea strictly from a pro / con perspective. We gave the bush a bit of a shake, and so far I don't feel like anything has flown out of the bushes that would constitute a real step forward. That doesn't mean that every bush wont, just because this one doesn't.

 

So unless there is some last minute startling evidence to suggest otherwise, it would seem in this particular case sticking with convention appears to be the way forward.

 

Edit:

Oh I just realised I didn't address your comment about experts. The further I am away from knowing something the more inclined I am to trust experts (only through necessity), but it is not a default position, simply because I think the notion of experts is wildly over rated. I have had work performed by so called experts that I could have done better myself, and in some cases fixed up their so called expert work.

 

Sometimes it takes specialty tools I don't have, and it is more expedient to have them perform the work, or is required by law, but that doesn't mean they can do a better job than me because in a lot of cases they can't. I have infinite patience when it comes to certain things, so I can persevere where experts have finished and gone home.

 

Sometimes I like to stand on the shoulders of giants and take it from there. Like using software tools designed by those more knowledgeable than me, and I go off and do the construction according to their specs. I guess my biggest gripe with experts is that they can have completely opposite views of the same problem. Well that suggests that one of them is not such an expert as they would have you believe if they are heading in opposite directions. Like having a navigator and one takes off north and one takes off south, there can only be one shortest route.

Edited July 27, 20223 yr by Silent Screamer

You could have another look at the dimensions too - there used to be a 'rule of thumb' in pro-audio circles about minimizing interference in speakers and rooms by following the 'golden rule ratios' of 1: 1.414  and a lot of rooms that were optimized for 'better' bass were designed around these ratios.

 

So, starting with your ceiling height of 2.9m (9.5 ft) and the width is 6.8m (22ft) then the "length" would ideally be somewhere around 4.5m (15ft) from dividing that 22 by the 1.414) - this is the often used dimensions of about the 3 thousand cubic ft  and intended for optimizing the bass response which to many is the first requirement - it also reduces the costs of treating room resonance problems later.

 

You could perhaps artificially increase the ceiling height by careful built-in panels, maybe by about 15% or thereabouts but this would be something for one of those acoustical experts to develop for you - not hard, just a bit different.

 

If you can get around the idea of your stereo listening area being much smaller than the full width of the house, it might be worth a good look.  It also gives you back about 8 metres of extra space and that is definitely worth considering.

 

I don't know what effects the smaller room size effects would have for the AV reproduction  (5.1, 7.1, etc) but perhaps someone can offer some thoughts on this.

 

To date, it's just been a look at dimensions and theoretically minimizing (bass) resonance problems - the next thing to look at is the energy loss/absorption/ diffusion effects otherwise known as the freq vs Rt30 gradient - there's a lot of experts disagree about this subject but much of it is about the context and often talk from the point of view of pro-audio, and not so easy to follow.

 

I don't know how often I've seen people talking at cross purposes and getting rather annoyed - I remember one particular discussion on the AES where one expert was designing the acoustics for a board meeting room upgrade but based the options that they used in an auditorium, a completely different problem - it happens quite often too, unfortunately.

 

 

7 hours ago, Silent Screamer said:

we would still be living in caves.

 

Funny you mention caves.  I was thinking you should make a man cave. Sandstone is soft and you are well above flood level. An excavated sandstone cellar would give noise isolation and temperature control. With a pick and shovel you could get super fit as a side benefit.

15 minutes ago, Nada said:

 

Funny you mention caves.  I was thinking you should make a man cave. Sandstone is soft and you are well above flood level. An excavated sandstone cellar would give noise isolation and temperature control. With a pick and shovel you could get super fit as a side benefit.

Many years ago I had a music room with 2 ft thick rough hewn sandstone walls. You could put a clock radio in there and it would sound fantastic. Wish I still had the room.

19 hours ago, Nada said:

 

Funny you mention caves.  I was thinking you should make a man cave. Sandstone is soft and you are well above flood level. An excavated sandstone cellar would give noise isolation and temperature control. With a pick and shovel you could get super fit as a side benefit.

 

To one side of the of the block there is a step in the sandstone. There is a flat natural sandstone pad and and slope that goes up about 45 degrees. Between the high and the low side there is probably 1 - 1.5 meters difference in elevation. What I am going to do is cut that face so it is at a right angle giving me something of a buffer on my closest neighbour (~30 meters between houses).

 

Photos circa 2017 when I was planning to put the garage to the left of the photo.

 

Edited July 28, 20223 yr by Silent Screamer

I was up half the night redesigning the upstairs and downstairs (just clocked up the millionth revision) I moved the stairs, going away from walking under the counter, which had been my design idea for probably the last 3 - 4 years.

 

I wanted to try and move the HT / Music room away from the water of the kitchen and the ensuite. But more importantly I wanted to try and give the room more width to get closer to the ideal listening room ratios.

 

As drawn I now have 10.09 meters down from 12.82 meters in length, but I now have access to much more width. Before I was pushing to get 6.5 meters before coming too close to the water, I now have 8.0 meters and can easily move in or out from there. The chill out room is an optional room so I am prepared to sacrifice it as needed. I may even turn that into a storage / clean workshop room.

 

I lose one car spot but considering there is only the two of us that isn't a huge issue. The biggest loss is not having the HT / Music room right up against the sandstone wall that will be there. But I would gain an additional wall between me and the closest neighbour.

 

Upstairs the main cooking / prep counter top is now stand alone, which the missus likes, and have made the area between the living room and the kitchen more open plan (2.7 meter gap). It also makes getting stuff in and out of the goods lift much easier.

Went back to a previous design where I split the bottom level to take advantage of the natural land levels.

On the low side I can be at somewhere around 4 meter, whereas on the high side around 3 meters.

Can get some fairly decent figures with a width of 6.5 meters and just over 10 meters in length.

 

 

I didnt read it all, it dosnt load easily with the images...but...concert halls are what i would be looking to for inspiration.

 

You're on the right track, all concert halls change the hoizontal angles, you could either start thinking about that (easier to build and make adjustable) or finding out why they use horizontal angle changes vs vertical.

I have been talking to a few builders about different construction methods, and I think this is probably going to be more of a physical design limitation than anything I can control.

Thanks to our useless Government and their hard earned tax payer hands outs, they have completely wrecked the building industry. They created so much building demand that prices have sky rocketed and created material shortages.

 

So this house is now going to cost me a lot more to build. Which in turn has limited some of my options. Obviously as build cost per sqm goes up, the less of them I can afford.

 

Last week I contacted a block layer to see about how much it would cost to build the lower section in Besser Blocks. But that in turn creates its own issues. Blocks are not something you can control down to the mm like a constructed wall, so I may wind up with a room where I have what I have, and need to treat it accordingly. Availability of tradesmen may be the final decider on what it is built out of.