Grizaudio Posted June 9, 2022 Author Share Posted June 9, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Crazycloud said: The H6512 and the original 338800 are superb WGs; Earl Geddes was quite miffed when they were first DIY measured in 08 or so because of this. I have 2 or the Daytons and 4 of the JBLs. The one CD I'd like to try them with is the new SB ROSSO-34CDN-PK and will grab a pair when WES have them back in stock. As for the adaptors, try sanding them down slightly by hand to match. I taped some to a holesaw mounting plate once and mounted that to a drill press and did it very slowly; these were Al versions. Yep, the H6512 definitely measures very well, excellent directivity control through its range. I'm not happy with the adapters I purchased from ebay, the mounting plates are not 100% perpendicular to the mounting thread., I'll try sanding the ends, but they are already tapered thread end. It probably doesn't matter, but the fit isn't up to my expectations. I'll try a few things, and then optimise the EQ for the waveguide. I had my eye on the 44 PK also. It appears to have a nice flat response. Impedance profile looks very good. Great value @ $120.... The 225 and 250 constant directivity horns are probably worth trying. https://www.wagneronline.com.au/sb-audience-horn-body-only/sb-audience-range/sb-acoustics/speaker-drivers/audio-speakers-pa/1002105/fl/ They are all in stock too. Please report back on your experience if you grab some. Edited June 9, 2022 by Grizaudio 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazycloud Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 3 hours ago, Grizaudio said: I had my eye on the 44 PK also. It appears to have a nice flat response. Impedance profile looks very good. Great value @ $120.... 3 hours ago, Grizaudio said: Please report back on your experience if you grab some. I will. 3 hours ago, Grizaudio said: The 225 and 250 constant directivity horns are probably worth trying. https://www.wagneronline.com.au/sb-audience-horn-body-only/sb-audience-range/sb-acoustics/speaker-drivers/audio-speakers-pa/1002105/fl/ The relatively square shape puts me off for some of my applications as it's hard to get the C-C where I want it to be to keep the vertical polars where I'm most happy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) On 09/06/2022 at 3:52 PM, Grizaudio said: I received my H6512 waveguides today. I must say the waveguide mouth is a little rough..... Difficult to photograph. I was expecting a better finish. Its difficult to see from the photos, but there is discolouration around the waveguide entrance.... and the waveguide opening is not 100% perfect - Needs some opening/smoothing. In terms of sound quality what you are looking at there isn't irrelevant. (whoops: IS irrelevant) However the mouth and adapter mismatch could be..... but it's hard to pin down. The best way for a DIYer is basically to look at the electrical impedance (and see if any changes show up, when "ifxing" things). The main ponit being this "small stuff" is nowhere as important as we might think (perfect transitions, smooth surfaces, etc. etc.... the soundwaves are much much larger) Edited June 11, 2022 by davewantsmoore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 On 10/06/2022 at 9:07 AM, Grizaudio said: The 225 and 250 constant directivity horns are probably worth trying. https://www.wagneronline.com.au/sb-audience-horn-body-only/sb-audience-range/sb-acoustics/speaker-drivers/audio-speakers-pa/1002105/fl/ They are all in stock too. Wherre as the changes in the mouth/throat of these are of a much more relevant size ..... I would definitely go with something like the JBL/dayton, or the SEOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizaudio Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) Don't shoot the messenger, but ATM I have a clear preference for the SEOS-12. It sounds noticeably more natural, with less waveguide interaction/influence on the sound. IMO, you can clearly hear more waveguide influence (cupped hands) with the H6512, especially when directly comparing to the SEOS-12. The H6512 sounds a little nasally by comparison..... I need to complete some sweeps to see if the waveguide requires some correction through the range, other than the basic directivity correction I applied. LR 120hz 24db high pass, High shelf boost from 3.7khz, 6db Q0.3. I think I'll be sticking with the SEOS12 and its shorter waveguide for now. Edited June 11, 2022 by Grizaudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted June 12, 2022 Share Posted June 12, 2022 On 11/06/2022 at 3:45 PM, Grizaudio said: I need to complete some sweeps to see if the waveguide requires some correction Did you correct them to the same frequency response? (as their diretivity will be similar enough ish) Otherwise the subjective comparisons don't represent much more than "they have a different frequency response" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizaudio Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Did you correct them to the same frequency response? (as their diretivity will be similar enough ish) Otherwise the subjective comparisons don't represent much more than "they have a different frequency response" Correct Dave, the directivity correction is similar 'ish' for both waveguides, a quick listen confirms that. Like I said, I need to complete some sweeps to correct for waveguide differences. I'm just time poor atm. Gainphile applies about -4db @4hkz for his cabinet/speaker design, Q1.2..... If this holds for the raw waveguide, that would help explain the nasally sound. I see no directivity correction in this design (Passive or active) - which is odd. IMO without the directivity compensation HF really suffers. The SEOS12 is good out of the box. If you check out the SEOS-12 raw response below, a high shelf is really all that's needed for a flat response. You might want a small -1/2db PEQ @ 4hkz, but it sounds fine to me (settles of axis). If I can be bothered (Free time permitting) I will do some measurements and corrections on the H6512 for kicks, but I'm pretty happy with the SEOS12 atm. Edited June 13, 2022 by Grizaudio 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Grizaudio said: Correct, the directivity correction is similar for both waveguides. No.... I mean, for example, in the SEOS12 DE250 plot you just posted... there is getting close ash to double (!!!!) the acoustic energy being emitted at 4khz at 0 degrees.... vs 2khz or 6khz. If these things aren't corrected for (vs another, different, driver) .... then that's going to dominate (!!!) the comparison..... even a fraction of a dB spread over an octave, is reasonably audible. I'm not trying to suggest that what you are doing is "invalid" as that is a strong word (and zero time is totally relevant) so not trying to throw shade or anything .... but don't lose sight of what you are really comparing.... and keep in mind that a whole plethora of "I like the bumps and dips in driver X, that I didn't correct for, better than driver A, B and C... and so X is a better driver" ... dominate what you read online. ... and this is not even to say that the soes12de250 is "bad" (cos of the bump) .... just that these things will totally dominate the audition, and can be mitigated through more correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizaudio Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 5 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: No.... I mean, for example, in the SEOS12 DE250 plot you just posted... there is getting close ash to double (!!!!) the acoustic energy being emitted at 4khz at 0 degrees.... vs 2khz or 6khz. If these things aren't corrected for (vs another, different, driver) .... then that's going to dominate (!!!) the comparison..... even a fraction of a dB spread over an octave, is reasonably audible. I'm not trying to suggest that what you are doing is "invalid" as that is a strong word (and zero time is totally relevant) so not trying to throw shade or anything .... but don't lose sight of what you are really comparing.... and keep in mind that a whole plethora of "I like the bumps and dips in driver X, that I didn't correct for, better than driver A, B and C... and so X is a better driver" ... dominate what you read online. ... and this is not even to say that the soes12de250 is "bad" (cos of the bump) .... just that these things will totally dominate the audition, and can be mitigated through more correction. Dave I follow you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazycloud Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 I don't use measurements from different sources to compare. There are enough detail points in the measurement technique that I wouldn't trust forming n opinion using them. As a guide to get an idea, yes, useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 I replaced the Dayton woofer with the Faital 12pr300 and sealed the cabinets, as expected the bass response is reduced but the midrange and transient response was much improved. Crossing them at 150hz cleaned up the midrange even more. For sub support I’m now running my 15” H frame dipole subs with DSP and dedicated amps so far I’m impressed with the Faital 12pr300’s so grabbing them while on sale turned out to be a win 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizaudio Posted July 30, 2022 Author Share Posted July 30, 2022 Nice, I'm looking to sell my Dayton H6512's atm... If anyone is interested let me know. Happy to do a deal to clear some room. I'm going to keep my SEOS12's and Faital's for a future build. In the meantime I've managed to grab some large format JBL's, which will keep me happy for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizaudio Posted July 30, 2022 Author Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) On 26/06/2022 at 6:18 PM, RePete said: I replaced the Dayton woofer with the Faital 12pr300 and sealed the cabinets, as expected the bass response is reduced but the midrange and transient response was much improved. Crossing them at 150hz cleaned up the midrange even more. For sub support I’m now running my 15” H frame dipole subs with DSP and dedicated amps so far I’m impressed with the Faital 12pr300’s so grabbing them while on sale turned out to be a win That's great to know. I'll get around to the Faital's one day. Those drivers don't look like the Faital's.... Rolled surround? Old setup? Edited July 30, 2022 by Grizaudio 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 18 hours ago, Grizaudio said: That's great to know. I'll get around to the Faital's one day. Those drivers don't look like the Faital's.... Rolled surround? Old setup? That pic has the Dayton DC300 I used the 12pr300 with the generic Econowave crossover and while the mids were improved over the DC300 I found the setup fatiguing which I was blaming on the Ti diaphragm in the CD But after swapping back to the DC300 with the crossover specifically measured and designed by Zilch there was zero fatigue so I’m now inclined to blame upper mids in the crossover region but as I don’t have the knowledge to design a new crossover even if I were to purchase equipment and measure them I’m considering other projects That said the “standard” Econowave with the DC300 is very good as a stand-alone fullrange speaker with some very good qualities even if the midrange isn’t first class. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizaudio Posted July 31, 2022 Author Share Posted July 31, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, RePete said: That pic has the Dayton DC300 I used the 12pr300 with the generic Econowave crossover and while the mids were improved over the DC300 I found the setup fatiguing which I was blaming on the Ti diaphragm in the CD But after swapping back to the DC300 with the crossover specifically measured and designed by Zilch there was zero fatigue so I’m now inclined to blame upper mids in the crossover region but as I don’t have the knowledge to design a new crossover even if I were to purchase equipment and measure them I’m considering other projects That said the “standard” Econowave with the DC300 is very good as a stand-alone fullrange speaker with some very good qualities even if the midrange isn’t first class. The crossover is so important. Not easy to get right unfortunately. Just wondering, are you crossing around 1khz with the 12pr300, with 24db? 12db? LP. If you were inclined, maybe measure the Faital with crossover (analog/active) without the compression driver to analyse the distortion and frequency response past crossover. It would be interesting to see how it is behaving? You might need to employee some DSP/correction for a smooth roll off in line with your selected low pass. Edited July 31, 2022 by Grizaudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 Hey Griz i don’t have measuring equipment and while I think I could measure and interpret the results I don’t have the expertise to design a suitable crossover the crossover from the Zilch/Jackgiff is a generic design with the CD correction for the specified CD on specified waveguide and woofers with sensitivity greater than 95db, I think from memory the acoustic crossover point is about 1.5k. I’m guessing there is a little to much energy in the crossover point with the 12pr300? the “standard” however was built and measured by Zilch with all drivers specified. I think this is the key 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizaudio Posted July 31, 2022 Author Share Posted July 31, 2022 11 hours ago, RePete said: Hey Griz i don’t have measuring equipment and while I think I could measure and interpret the results I don’t have the expertise to design a suitable crossover the crossover from the Zilch/Jackgiff is a generic design with the CD correction for the specified CD on specified waveguide and woofers with sensitivity greater than 95db, I think from memory the acoustic crossover point is about 1.5k. I’m guessing there is a little to much energy in the crossover point with the 12pr300? the “standard” however was built and measured by Zilch with all drivers specified. I think this is the key Ah passive. Yes very good. For some reason I thought you had minidsp too. Absolutely, its very difficult to do anything without a measurement microphone. I use one of these, which works quite well. https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1 But I'm far from being an expert. I just have fun, and learn along the way. Thats what DIY is all about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizaudio Posted July 31, 2022 Author Share Posted July 31, 2022 11 hours ago, RePete said: Hey Griz i don’t have measuring equipment and while I think I could measure and interpret the results I don’t have the expertise to design a suitable crossover the crossover from the Zilch/Jackgiff is a generic design with the CD correction for the specified CD on specified waveguide and woofers with sensitivity greater than 95db, I think from memory the acoustic crossover point is about 1.5k. I’m guessing there is a little to much energy in the crossover point with the 12pr300? the “standard” however was built and measured by Zilch with all drivers specified. I think this is the key I would suspect the 12pr300 would prefer a Xover around 1000-1200hz, and yes it would also be a little more sensitive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts