Tried Apple lossless… my experience started positive but now I’m back to Tidal

[TonyW]

My Apple Music enthusiasm started as soon as I tried the demonstration lossless tracks with spatial audio. Yes, these were well selected to demonstrate the potential of the Apple Music offerings. I was immediately impressed. I noticed the engineers at Abyss headphones thought similarly (and they are used to very high end gear). Now some weeks later I started to question my initial judgment. Some albums do sound better on Apple but I keep going back to Tidal for the audiophile sound. For example, Metallica sounds a bit flat on Tidal after listening to Apple. But when I sit and really listen I feel a tidal has all the notes but it sounds like the loudness control, ie bass and treble boost, is turned off. This is even more so with Supertramp, Fleetwood Mac, etc… 

 

I soon started to realise the better recordings sounded better when really listening on Tidal. Some albums had a slight veil on Apple I could not hear on tidal., Dominique fils-amie is a great example, the clarity of Tidal is easily discernible on my system. Similarly the slam and resolution difference of Theron albums make them so much better from Tidal. I began to not want to listen to the better albums on Apple.

 

then a strange thing started to happen to my Apple Music app. I connect directly to a chord tt2 for speakers and a Hugo 2 for headphones. The Apple Music app would freeze and play static. That’s not the end of the world but it sounds like it when you have an amp ramped right up. It got scary, in terms of my fear of damaging my speakers. So now on the speakers I only use the tidal app when using the iPhone XS as a source. I’ve also noticed the app freezing up on CarPlay. Looking online I am not alone.

 

So  I’m now back to tidal, and happy. But I was looking to apple with great expectations of a lower price and an expanded list of music and also the inclusion of music removed from tidal due to licensing agreement failures Mach Grey Stripped springs to mind). I should say apple wasn’t perfect there either… I was surprised that Metallica’s black album (edit: remastered version which only has the first track available in Australia, the original album is there but I didn’t originally find this) is not available for example on Apple.

 

Anyhow, happily enjoying Tidal. Did your mileage vary?

 

TonyW

 

 

 

Just my experience…

Edited July 21, 2021 by TonyW

[sir sanders zingmore]

Try Qobuz next. 
Even better than Tidal and you have the nice warm fuzzy feeling of not supporting all that MQA bs

[LogicprObe]

 

Buy an EQ!

[TonyW]

Ha I spent my whole life saving up for a system without a EQ
 

and I might well give Qobuzz a try… like Tidal as I do, it does at times frustrate.

 

T

 

[Steffen]

1 hour ago, TonyW said:

Ha I spent my whole life saving up for a system without a EQ

 

Me too. But that was based on the understanding of the limitations of analogue EQ and what it could and couldn’t do. Also on a bit of elitist thinking.

 

During the past two or three years I reconsidered my stance towards EQ, given the availability of highly precise digital EQ at relatively low cost.

 

Today, I wouldn’t be without room EQ, to finish off what meticulous room treatment and speaker placement couldn’t fix. Not doing this would mean leaving a huge amount of cash, I mean sound quality, on the table.

[Tarzan]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I use Qobuz and the only issue is the limited music, not too bad but some albums are not available that are on Tidal.

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, Tarzan said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. I use Qobuz and the only issue is the limited music, not too bad but some albums are not available that are on Tidal.

True. But some albums are on Qobuz and not Tidal. And Apple Music still seems to have the biggest library out of all of them. 

At some point I have to draw a line. If I add yet another streaming service just to get a few albums that are missing, I may as well just buy those albums outright. 

 

[Niktech]

Having spent the last fortnight listening only to either local files on my audio pc or Apple Music, I’ve just “drawn the line” and ditched all the other streaming services. Size of the Apple catalogue and speed of update,  audio quality, radio and suggestion features, and value for money has all the other services beat

Edited July 19, 2021 by Niktech

[Chigurh]

On 7/17/2021 at 5:57 PM, TonyW said:

I was surprised that Metallica’s black album is not available for example on Apple.

Not correct, it's there.

[TonyW]

Chi girth, you are absolutely correct, Metallica black album is there but I chose to open the remastered version which has all songs but the first one unavailable in my region (Australia). I should have opened the other copy to check but I was so shocked at being locked out of such a great album I stopped looking for it.

 

I’ll edit my post to correct this.

 

and by the way apple has by far a better range of music than my experience with Tidal.

 

Thanks,

 

tony

[stereo coffee]

On 7/17/2021 at 9:43 PM, Steffen said:

 

Me too. But that was based on the understanding of the limitations of analogue EQ and what it could and couldn’t do. Also on a bit of elitist thinking.

 

During the past two or three years I reconsidered my stance towards EQ, given the availability of highly precise digital EQ at relatively low cost.

 

Today, I wouldn’t be without room EQ, to finish off what meticulous room treatment and speaker placement couldn’t fix. Not doing this would mean leaving a huge amount of cash, I mean sound quality, on the table.

When recordings take place it is invariably companding mainly that harbors the ability to capture dynamic range and preserve audio. At the same time a emphasis and deemphasis curve is often applied. The eq in these circumstances is not changing the audio like a tone control, rather it is used as suggested by Murray Crosby who pioneered this, and used in FM broadcasting  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosby_system    It see's the curve applied during recording and then corrected at playback. RIAA is a example of this same technique. 

 

What we need to see rather than haphazard guessed application of these curves ( apple MQA ) is the original companding being matched at playback,  that occurred during recording. Vangelis as example loved what DBX was achieving, referring to it as a subtle characteristic it gave to his sound. Vangelis used DBX type 1  ... see Nemo's choice for Noise reduction    http://www.nemostudios.co.uk/nemo/tour/recording/recording_br.htm

 

You can as example rather than buying eq products, obtain a DBX type 1 and use it real time without the need of a in between recording device, it can improve CD replay as suggested on  page 11 of the 150x instruction manual. " The 150x will adequately dither such a machine, as well as increase its usable dynamic range some 20db, and thereby change any so-called digital sound its noise floor has " .   Cable terminations are TRS and it can suit balanced audio too. 

 

Hope that helps

 

 

[Grant Slack]

Hi Chris,

 

That DBX justification doesn’t sound realistic to me. Who among us at home is actually hearing the noise floor embedded into their compact discs? Surely, if any noise floor is audible, it is going to be that of their home electronics, or possibly the noises in the recording studio in the same room as the microphones? I don’t see an extra 20 DB as achieving anything.

 

Perhaps I missed your point. 

 

Cheers,

Grant

 

[Ehrmantraut]

I only listen to streamed music via Roon. There is no "one" perfect service - just like streaming TV. Who hasn't got Netflix, Prime, Stan, Disney and Binge (maybe even Foxtel) on the go in some combo. It's the same here, missing albums, artists, MQA or non MQA, upsampled bit depth - you pays your money and you takes your choice. We're lucky we have that choice now.

[stereo coffee]

40 minutes ago, Grant Slack said:

Hi Chris,

 

That DBX justification doesn’t sound realistic to me. Who among us at home is actually hearing the noise floor embedded into their compact discs? Surely, if any noise floor is audible, it is going to be that of their home electronics, or possibly the noises in the recording studio in the same room as the microphones? I don’t see an extra 20 DB as achieving anything.

 

Perhaps I missed your point. 

 

Cheers,

Grant

 

Hi Grant

At the time of the 150x manufacture, 16 bit CD players were all the go, the quote refers in the manual,  to such machines. You can as example hear little difference using a marantz CD50 - a common TDA1541  based player, using a 150x  , to the best CD player you can lay your hands on.  however connect a standard CD50 next to the best CD player without the DBX and its obvious 16 bit had a long way to go. 

 

The noise floor of a CD player is a bit different to noise as you know it, when it is present it gives the CD player a characteristic sound rather than it be heard as noise as such. When the noise floor is removed it becomes quite noticeable  what the CD player was adding, and what you were putting up with.  

 

Between 1992 and now CD players certainly improved, however where it gets interesting is then using a 150x with the most recent players, as the 150x

subjectively IMO continues on searching to improve those players too, such is the benefit Type 1  companding yields.  

[TonyW]

Chigurth, followed up on your advice and tried Qobuz today…

 

I am amazed at the SQ improvement over tidal and apple on some of the hires albums I’ve listened to. So much I did the “family” test subjecting them to an A/B comparison test using some of Dominique’s albums (Nameless, Stay tuned). Yes my non audiophile family immediately heard and to quote “felt” the difference. Qobuzz was clearer, more resolved and better slam.

 

I do appreciate being sent in the Qobuz direction. Sadly a few albums missing that I enjoy, and also sadly I found with my internet connection I am getting some lag and need to download a hires album to guarantee no stutter in playback.

 

darn, I may be paying for more than one streaming service going forward….

 

tony

 

 

[rand129678]

2 hours ago, TonyW said:

Sadly a few albums missing that I enjoy

 

I used this form (Qobuz Support sent me this link) to request 3 missing albums (that are there on Tidal).

 

http://qob.uz/request

 

And 3 months later they are now there for me. So they are listening and actively trying to fill the gaps.

 

Make sure you fill the form carefully - share a proper link to the Tidal/Spotify/Apple Music page. Get the artist name, album title, record label correct. It makes it easier for the Qobuz staff to get it right. 

 

The record label is shown on the album page of all the apps.

 

Hope that helps

 

 

[Steffen]

So far I’ve heard nothing wrong with lossless audio from Apple Music, other than the difficulties playing it.

 

Tonight I tried for the first time to play spatial audio from Apple Music on my AppleTV over my home TV system. I didn’t have high expectations for spacial audio, actually expected it to be nothing than a gaudy effect. But I thought, perhaps it works ok in a 5.1 system (or 4.0 in my case).

 

It didn’t. The overall tonal balance was fine, as far as I can tell. However, the spatial effect ruined it. It produced a certain sense of depth, but the depth was totally unrealistic and arbitrary. It sounded very artificial and not in line with what you’d expect to hear as a concert audience member. Oh, at this point I should probably mention that I’m basing my evaluation on classical music tracks that have been exposed in Apple Music as spatial audio highlights.

 

The width and depth effect when playing spatial audio classical music through my 4.0 setup (made up of Wharfedale speakers) doesn’t match my regular stereo system (LS3/5a-AB/2-Sub) [EDIT} playing regular stereo tacks[/EDIT], but then, not much out there does   That’s ok for a cheap set of speakers I reckon, my actual issue is with the way the soundstage is constructed. It unfortunately has nothing to do with an actual classical music soundstage that concert goers and stereo listeners are accustomed to.

 

Spatial audio put up a good shown on some pop tracks I tried, with actual movie-like surround sound effects and all. If non-acoustic music is your thing then I’d say give it a try, there is a good chance you’ll be impressed. It is no good for reproducing actual space in music that exists without speakers. 

 

If I had to summarise spatial audio in a droll way, I’d say it’s like stirring glitter into your Martini – it looks good but tastes funny.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Steffen
tpyos

[Grant Slack]

*spatial*

 

 

[Grant Slack]

9 hours ago, Steffen said:

If I had to summarise spacial audio in a droll way, I’d say it’s like stirring glitter into your Martini – it looks good but tastes funny.

Hi Steffen,

 

if I had to summarise using 4.0 to evaluate Atmos recordings, I'd say it's like judging the flavour of a 13-ingredient recipe..... made with 4 ingredients.

 

[rand129678]

11 hours ago, Steffen said:

Tonight I tried for the first time to play spacial audio from Apple Music on my AppleTV over my home TV system.

 

Is that the newest Apple TV 4K model with an Atmos receiver?

 

So far in my listening, to really get the best experience with Apple's new Spatial Audio, you need an Atmos receiver. And the newest ATV 4K.

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by rand129678
spelling

[Ittaku]

I'm confused; does Apple lossless have different audio to the lossless that Tidal has (assuming non-MQA)? Or are you just saying Apple's lossless stream doesn't sound as good as the identical Tidal lossless stream?

Edited July 24, 2021 by Ittaku

[Steffen]

2 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

*spatial*

 

Thanks, fixed

 

2 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

 

if I had to summarise using 4.0 to evaluate Atmos recordings, I'd say it's like judging the flavour of a 13-ingredient recipe..... made with 4 ingredients.

 

 

That’s a technical limitation, and one I’m well aware of when watching movies with surround sound. But my point is, unlike those movies that been produced with surround sound from the outset, the spatial audio tracks I’ve been listening to never were. Many predate things like Atmos by many years. They’ve had the “spatial sauce” poured over them, and this is what results in an unnatural soundstage. This unnatural post processing is not going to be fixed by using a full complement of Atmos speakers, because it is just wrong to start with.

[Steffen]

5 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I'm confused; does Apple lossless have different audio to the lossless that Tidal has (assuming non-MQA)? Or are you just saying Apple's lossless stream doesn't sound as good as the identical Tidal lossless stream?

 

I think the lossless (not spatial) tracks are mostly the same, depending on the masters Apple and Tidal used. I think the two services have slightly different loudness targets for volume normalisation, but apart from that, they should be very close.

 

[Niktech]

I’m pretty happy with the 16/44.1 and 24/48 kHz tracks from Apple Music streamed from an iPad Air 4 > Aries mini > Hermes DDC > Pontus etc.  The Indi artists and labels I listen too don’t usually release tracks at 96 kHz or 192 kHz.

Apparently, if you leave the toggle for Atmos on “always” it will work with non-Apple branded headphones.

However,I’ve turned Atmos off. There’s something not quite right there. Through headphones I get a swirling/ dizzy/ imbalanced  sensation.

[TonyW]

Yep I think the lossless non spatial audio SHOULD be similar across different streaming platforms that advertise it as CD quality. That wasn’t my experience surprisingly. An album Vovin by Theron is an example. Tidal had a different and higher quality to Apple so much so my family could instantly pick it. Qobuzz is different as a master there is often very much different and to my ears better… umm to anything else even my CDs. Hiromi’s album “Spark” is jaw dropping if you like that kind of jazz. Never heard it sound so good.

 

But that said there were some spatial audio tracks I really liked on Apple.

 

And yes, I’ve always left the Apple Music toggle on for Atmos… not sure if I should spend some time with it off to see the effect…

 

Tony