Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) Pioneer PLX-514 belt drive turntable was my first turntable and I let it go many years ago and had fond memory of it so I took a bite and recently got one... I was told that it was recently fully serviced by technician and will last many years without a hassle. As soon as I took it home and turn it on, I noticed the rumble from motor that transmit to entire plinth and tonearm wand. I thought that motor needs extra lubrication so lubricated both motor and main bearing but it still rumble. I could not detect hum or buzz so it is not signal issue but motor vibrates quietly which also transmit to entire plinth and tonearm. I remember that my old one was very quiet without any rumble so this might need vibration absorbing material such as dynamat under the motor to kill the motor rumble. Then, I noticed that it has upgraded motor caps when I took the top plate out. It is MEX/TENTA 40/100/21 MKP X2 Safety Suppression Capacitors which look pretty and premium but noticed that it has value of 0.1uf and 275VAC. when I check the service manual, I could not find any information what original motor cap values are so had to google and found this https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18825 It states as below; 2B-473M A2 CFS ECQ-UD ECQ-UD = Panasonic type number for metallised polyester film with radial leads These appear to be an obsolete type. Panasonic have changed the order of the codes but seem to have kept the same assignations so this would translate to ECQU 2B 473 M A 2B is voltage = 250V DC 473 is capacitance in picofarads; 47 plus 3 zeros = 47000pf = .047uF M is tolerance (20%) A is a lead type . I thought that I may found the issue here and the motor cap installed has incorrect voltage type and value and it needs to be 250v DC (not AC) with 0.47uf value. However, I also found this photo which looks like original orange caps installed and it looks like 450V AC 0.47uf. My guess is that correct value is 0.47uf. However, I am not sure if it needs to be AC or DC caps or it does not even matter which one as long as 0.47uf value is correct? It would be hugely appreciated if anyone can enlighten me on this.... Thank you so much... Edited November 2, 2020 by Spider27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwstereo Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Rumble is typically a mechanical issue, not electrical or electronic. Have you inadvertently left transport screws in it or similar? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, pwstereo said: Rumble is typically a mechanical issue, not electrical or electronic. Have you inadvertently left transport screws in it or similar? Thanks for the suggestion and as far as I know, there is no transport screw for this turntable when I check the exploded view diagram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwstereo Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Just now, Spider27 said: ...there is no transport screw for this turntable when I check the exploded view diagram. Maybe a rubber mount bushing bumped out of place/torn/perished/etc? Belt guide rubbing the belt? Wiring pulled tight and transmitting vibration to the plinth/chassis? Incorrect capacitors might allow electrical interference or something, but it seems unlikely to cause rumble. I'm not sure of the circuitry of the motor drive electrics though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, pwstereo said: Maybe a rubber mount bushing bumped out of place/torn/perished/etc? Belt guide rubbing the belt? Wiring pulled tight and transmitting vibration to the plinth/chassis? Incorrect capacitors might allow electrical interference or something, but it seems unlikely to cause rumble. I'm not sure of the circuitry of the motor drive electrics though. Checked rubber mount bushing and they seem all in correct position and condition is decent. I took the rubber belt off and ran it and same... Motor runs quiet but I feel strong vibration. Wiring seem all okay. Wire wrapped tiny so no loose wires and tension is snug (not too tight or not too loose). What is funny is that motor does not make any buzz or noise but runs quietly and transmit strong vibration... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batty Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Take it back to where you bought it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Batty said: Take it back to where you bought it. Certainly an option but it is quite far so not easy to take it back and I am not sure if the seller would agree to take it back because he might argue that it still works and produce sounds... I am not good at confrontation and I usually avoid at all cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) I may try to replace the cap to see if it makes any positive outcome. (it is the only thing that i can think of at present). Would this cap be correct one to use? https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/polyester-film-capacitors/4764001/ Edited November 2, 2020 by Spider27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) Could be the belt or the surface the belt contacts, could be the spindle bearing ect'. If all that is good you could add layers of sound deadening product to the underside of the plinth, the adhesive stuff from jaycar. The cap likely will not make any difference. Edited November 2, 2020 by muon* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 https://liquidaudio.com.au/pioneer-pl-514-turntable-service-2/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, muon* said: Could be the belt or the surface the belt contacts, could be the spindle bearing ect'. If all that is good you could add layers of sound deadening product to the underside of the plinth, the adhesive stuff from jaycar. The cap likely will not make any difference. Thank you and great idea. I will definitely try the sound deadening material. There are a few different products from JayCar and not sure which one is ideal for this purpose. https://www.jaycar.com.au/heavy-duty-sound-barrier-damping-material-improved/p/AX3680 https://www.jaycar.com.au/combination-butyl-foam-super-sound-deadener/p/AX3689 They look pretty much identical but noticeable difference in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 Besides, the vibration, does it matter using 0.1uf cap instead of 0.47uf ? I guess that value is very small so it does not really matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Take the platter off and the belt, does the motor spindle spin smoothly when you spin it with you fingers? is there any side to side movement when gently moving it side to side? Clean any gunk from the belt that is on the motor spindle where the belt contacts it with isopolypropylene alcohol, same with the platter area the belt contacts, allow to dry. Place the platter back on without the belt and spin the platter, does it spin easily and smoothly? Maybe remove the spindle shaft like in that link and clean it and apply a light synthetic grease like he suggests. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr Thorens Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Rumble is a feature of the PL514’s I’ve had. It is mechanical, and comes from the motor. In 1980 I had a brand new one that also suffered from rumble. And every one I’ve had since (three). I recently almost eliminated rumble. I’ve got more adventurous Ofer the years so this is what I did. 1. Remove the motor entirely from the base plate (you’ll need to remove the base plate from the plinth) and oil both the top and bottom of the motor spindle. The oil hole at the top of the motor only lubricates the top. remove any loose dust and grime. When lubricated and cleaned up it will soon more freely. 2. remove the platter spindle from the bearing well. Clean the old oil from the bearing well with isopropyl alcohol and replace with new oil. 3. Cover all vacant spots on the base plate with sound deadener. The jaycar stuff works. 4. cover the top plate cover with sound deadener, underneath in spots, where it doesn’t interfere with the mechanics underneath. This seemed to sort it out. With the noise removed this is a very good TT indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 hour ago, muon* said: Take the platter off and the belt, does the motor spindle spin smoothly when you spin it with you fingers? is there any side to side movement when gently moving it side to side? Yep. motor runs smoothly and if I push side to side, it moves slightly due to rubber mounting bushes.. 1 hour ago, muon* said: Clean any gunk from the belt that is on the motor spindle where the belt contacts it with isopolypropylene alcohol, same with the platter area the belt contacts, allow to dry. Belt is brand new and motor spindle and inner platter rim all clean. I give a credit to previous owner on this one. 1 hour ago, muon* said: Place the platter back on without the belt and spin the platter, does it spin easily and smoothly? Yep. it glide and runs smooth as silk. 1 hour ago, muon* said: Maybe remove the spindle shaft like in that link and clean it and apply a light synthetic grease like he suggests. Thank you. I did this by following the link instruction. I think that the rumble solely coming from motor and it makes same rumble when I took the belt off so there is nothing touches between motor spindle and main bearing spindle and motor still transmit vibration to tonearm wand and plinth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 30 minutes ago, Mr Thorens said: Rumble is a feature of the PL514’s I’ve had. It is mechanical, and comes from the motor. In 1980 I had a brand new one that also suffered from rumble. And every one I’ve had since (three). Great to know. I do not know why and first one that I had a few years ago was dead quiet without any rumble as i recall. It must been one of few or serviced very well by former owner and I should not have let it go. (sigh). 30 minutes ago, Mr Thorens said: I recently almost eliminated rumble. I’ve got more adventurous Ofer the years so this is what I did. 1. Remove the motor entirely from the base plate (you’ll need to remove the base plate from the plinth) and oil both the top and bottom of the motor spindle. The oil hole at the top of the motor only lubricates the top. remove any loose dust and grime. When lubricated and cleaned up it will soon more freely. Thank you and lubricated both top and bottom of motor. 30 minutes ago, Mr Thorens said: 2. remove the platter spindle from the bearing well. Clean the old oil from the bearing well with isopropyl alcohol and replace with new oil. Yep. Done. After done upto this step, motor runs a bit more freely but still rumble and the biggest vibration coming from the silver plate that is sitting on top of the motor (underneath the motor spindle. I feel strong vibration when i touch the silver plate. 30 minutes ago, Mr Thorens said: 3. Cover all vacant spots on the base plate with sound deadener. The jaycar stuff works. 4. cover the top plate cover with sound deadener, underneath in spots, where it doesn’t interfere with the mechanics underneath. May I know which one you used? I guess that it was one of below two? https://www.jaycar.com.au/heavy-duty-sound-barrier-damping-material-improved/p/AX3680 https://www.jaycar.com.au/combination-butyl-foam-super-sound-deadener/p/AX3689 I feel that applying sound deadening material may be the major contribution to reduce the rumble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 This stuff should work/help https://www.jaycar.com.au/butyl-based-sound-deadening-material-3-25m-roll/p/AX3681 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr Thorens Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 The combination butyl/foam is the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Spider27 said: Besides, the vibration, does it matter using 0.1uf cap instead of 0.47uf ? I guess that value is very small so it does not really matter? I would think it does matter, Jim. Use the same value for any replacement (0.47uF is a standard value). Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 38 minutes ago, andyr said: I would think it does matter, Jim. Use the same value for any replacement (0.47uF is a standard value). Andy Wouldn't it depend on the mains voltage and the motor? So to get the right value, or best value would require an oscilloscope? or Accelerometer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) The manual states the two caps as PLC-005, on a different page it indicts a single cap as PCL-019 (KCT) and KCE-005 (KUT) and gives no values Maybe 0.047uf. Edited November 2, 2020 by muon* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, muon* said: The manual states the two caps as PLC-005, on a different page it indicts a single cap as PCL-019 (KCT) and KCE-005 (KUT) and gives no values Yep. It is weird and could not figure out from service manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Spider27 said: Yep. It is weird and could not figure out from service manual. I think 0.047uf like used by liquid audio in their referb, if you look around there are other PL-814's using this value, or at least one other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) Here one uses a 0.047uf, but this 814 has only one cap, now I'm more confused. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18825 Yeah, I'd use 250vac at 0.047uf, that's 250vac not 250vdc. Edited November 2, 2020 by muon* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider27 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, muon* said: Here one uses a 0.047uf, but this 814 has only one cap, now I'm more confused. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18825 Yeah, I'd use 250vac at 0.047uf, that's 250vac not 250vdc. This must do the trick I guess. Paper Capacitor https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/products/0210617/ or this one... Polypropylene Capacitor https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/polypropylene-film-capacitors/1908359/ Edited November 2, 2020 by Spider27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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