Streaming Set Up Advice

[Steak Face]

Hi all,

 

Just after some advice in regard to setting up music streaming on my home system.

 

Currently the system is:

Rotel A12

Focal 706’s

Velodyne SPL800i

Chromecast Ultra and Apple TV (both wired to network)

 

My source is Spotify and Tidal using my iPhone or iPad.  I have no intention to stream off a computer, hard drive nor use a CD player or turntable (even though I’m an ex dj and vinyl collector – long story that is of no importance here!).

 

When using Spotify I’d plug my phone into the A12’s USB port and use the iPad as the controller when across the room on the lounge – this is reliable and works well and allows ‘High Quality’ Spotify straight to the A12.  If just background music BT is fine. 

 

Tidal, which I've just started using, doesn’t appear to support that type of set-up.  Instead I have to cast to the Chromecast Ultra which is connected to the TV (so TV has to be on) and then the TV is connected to A12 via optical cable.  The issue is that, for some reason, the Tidal app loses connection to the Chromecast at random times - so the music (or videos) keep playing on the stereo/TV but I lose control from the iPad.  If I select another track it will play on the iPad rather than TV/stereo….. so I have to restart the app select a track and, most of the time, it fixes itself but I lose any tracks I’ve queued up - so this isn’t ideal and is really frustrating. Using Airplay to Apple TV (ATV) seems more stable (I haven’t extensively tested this though) but immediately the sound quality seems lower, no idea why, and it rarely shows the Tidal player on the TV, usually the ATV home screen or screen saver.

 

So I’m after suggestions on a set-up that is:

-          Reliable - I use music time to relax, not troubleshoot why things aren’t working properly.

-          Easy to use – I have a preference for not using another app to stream which I think the likes of Heos, Musiccast etc have to have running?  So streaming straight from Spotify/Tidal apps is preferable – less to go wrong.

-          Quality Sound if the solution requires a new amp/dac.

 

I’m not averse to a new amplifier and/or network streamer as I’ve had the A12 for a while and everyone loves an upgrade, right? I’m in Australia and could probably stretch the budget to $3,000 but definitely open to cheaper options as my needs aren’t complex – reliably stream gapless playback from Spotify and Tidal apps in the highest quality available (I know that means HiFi only for Tidal, which is fine). I value simplicity, reliability and quality.

 

Given that the issues is centred around Tidal, I could just drop it and use Spotify (which as mentioned above is reliable in the current set-up) however there are aspects of Tidal I really like so looking at ways to make it work more reliably. 

 

Any opinions or suggestions will be appreciated.

 

Cheers

Edited August 6, 2020 by Steak Face

[mjs]

I think I'd be looking to use Roon, assuming you've got a computer on the network to install Roon Core. Roon is good at managing Tidal, you get a neat iOS app and I think you should be able to direct music to either the AppleTV or the Chromecast. It costs a bit to subscribe though. 

[Gryffles]

Like you I want something simple, not to expensive and reliable. I ended up buying an Innuos Zen Mini and I use Tidal using IPeng app as a remote control from my ph.

 

Think I got mine on special for $1400

[Steak Face]

19 minutes ago, mjs said:

I think I'd be looking to use Roon, assuming you've got a computer on the network to install Roon Core. Roon is good at managing Tidal, you get a neat iOS app and I think you should be able to direct music to either the AppleTV or the Chromecast. It costs a bit to subscribe though. 

There is no permanent computer on the network.  I occasionally use my work laptop at home (for photo editing) and my wife has a laptop for work/study but neither is connected all the time.  If installing Roon Core is a one off thing, and isn't required to be permanently connected, I could probably use one of the laptops.  I'll have a look at Roon (but not sure I want to pay an ongoing fee), thanks.

 

Dumb question - if Roon ends up directing music to either the Chromecast Ultra (CCU) or ATV - what's the advantage over just using the native app (spotify/tidal) and casting to ATV/CCU? 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Steak Face

[pwstereo]

Get a Chromecast Audio and connect it to a free line level input on your amp.

Stream to it from the apps on your phone or iPad.

TuneIn Radio, Spotify, etc have a cast button that will let you cast to the CCA.

I'd imagine the Tidal app will work the same way.

 

CCA is discontinued, but you can find secondhand ones or refurbs online if you look around.

 

 

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, mjs said:

I think I'd be looking to use Roon, assuming you've got a computer on the network to install Roon Core. Roon is good at managing Tidal, you get a neat iOS app and I think you should be able to direct music to either the AppleTV or the Chromecast. It costs a bit to subscribe though. 

Not sure it is appropriate to use Roon to solve a Tidal problem???  OP does not have music locally, not even a computer on the network.

1 hour ago, Steak Face said:

So I’m after suggestions on a set-up that is:

-          Reliable - I use music time to relax, not troubleshoot why things aren’t working properly.

-          Easy to use – I have a preference for not using another app to stream which I think the likes of Heos, Musiccast etc have to have running?  So streaming straight from Spotify/Tidal apps is preferable – less to go wrong.

-          Quality Sound if the solution requires a new amp/dac.

BluOS is probably the easiest to use phone app.  Options include a Bluesound Node 2i, a NAD C658 or even a NAD M10 (which removes need for Rotel A12).  Quality of sound increases as you spend more...

[Steak Face]

16 minutes ago, pwstereo said:

I'd imagine the Tidal app will work the same way.

 

Yeah, you can cast to Chromecast Ultra (CCU) straight from the Tidal and Spotify apps so I imagine it would be the same for Chromecast Audio.

 

This would be a cheap solution, however I may still have the casting issues I'm having with the CCU - random disconnects, but otherwise (assuming it's digital out to the A12 is quality) then it's not a bad option.

[Steak Face]

35 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

BluOS is probably the easiest to use phone app.  Options include a Bluesound Node 2i, a NAD C658 or even a NAD M10 (which removes need for Rotel A12).  Quality of sound increases as you spend more...

Wow, that NAD C658 looks great - I hadn't seen that while looking at options.  It even acts as a preamp and has two way aptxHD Bluetooth, which would be handy.  Add a NAD C268 amplifier and that looks like a viable set-up close to budget.

 

Obviously a Chromecast Audio (assuming I don't get the same issues as with the Chromecast Ultra) is a much cheaper alternative, however the NAD combo is certainly something to consider - cheers!

Edited August 6, 2020 by Steak Face

[Mat-with-one-t]

Out of interest, have you tried Tidal in exactly the same iPhone setup you’ve been using, but rather going straight to A12 with USB, try:

phone>any USB to spdif converter>A12 spdif input

Ive had no trouble with this as a cheap “use an old iPhone” streaming setup.  Perhaps the input on the A12 is unable to sort the signal?  

Maybe worth a shot.  I’ve got a very old Gustard U10 and a much fancier Singxer and both have been great for this purpose....

[Snoopy8]

2 minutes ago, Steak Face said:

Wow, that NAD C658 looks great - I hadn't seen that while looking at options.  It even acts as a preamp and has two way Bluetooth, which would be handy.  Add a NAD C268 amplifier and that looks like a viable set-up close to budget.

 

Obviously a Chromecast Audio (assuming I don't get the same issues as with the Chromecast Ultra) is a much cheaper alternative, however the NAD combo is certainly something to consider - cheers!

SNA did a review

https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/nad-electronics-c-658-streaming-dac-preamp-review

 

There is an active owners thread

 

If you are considering adding a NAD C268, suggest looking closely at the M10. which has a $250 cashback promotion. It is another step up from the C658.

https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/review-nad-m10-bluos-streaming-amplifier

[Gryffles]

2 hours ago, Gryffles said:

Like you I want something simple, not to expensive and reliable. I ended up buying an Innuos Zen Mini and I use Tidal using IPeng app as a remote control from my ph.

 

Think I got mine on special for $1400

I should add that the Zen Mini has a very competent dac built in as well.

[hazzac181]

My 2 cents: I'm currently using a Chromecast Audio into a line-in on my amp. Works fine. I have no drop outs with the Android Tidal app. I've read online (there are a few threads devoted to this) that the CCA can output as a digital source with a 3.5mm to toslink cable, which can then be run into a DAC of some description. Might be worth investigating. 

[Guest dr_carl]

There is a Bluesound Node 2 for sale now here for $450. Buy it, add a dac and never look back. Keep your existing gear if you like it.

 

Bliss for under $700

Edited August 6, 2020 by dr_carl

[Steak Face]

20 hours ago, Mat-with-one-t said:

Out of interest, have you tried Tidal in exactly the same iPhone setup you’ve been using, but rather going straight to A12 with USB, try:

phone>any USB to spdif converter>A12 spdif input

It's not the connection type to the A12 that's the issue, it's the fact that I can't control my phone (which is connected to the A12 via USB) via the iPad in the Tidal app.  I can do this in Spotify (I think it's called Spotify Connect), but Tidal doesn't appear to offer that. 

 

This set-up means my phone streams the highest quality via USB to the A12 and I get to sit on the lounge with the iPad as a controller/remote to my phone.  Otherwise I have to use BT which compromises sound quality.

 

19 hours ago, dr_carl said:

There is a Bluesound Node 2 for sale now here for $450. Buy it, add a dac and never look back. Keep your existing gear if you like it.

 

I did see that and it looks like a reasonable option however why would I need to add a DAC, doesn't the Bluesound have one built in, and my A12 does too?

 

20 hours ago, hazzac181 said:

My 2 cents: I'm currently using a Chromecast Audio into a line-in on my amp. Works fine. I have no drop outs with the Android Tidal app. I've read online (there are a few threads devoted to this) that the CCA can output as a digital source with a 3.5mm to toslink cable, which can then be run into a DAC of some description. Might be worth investigating. 

Yep, that's definately the cheapest and simplest solution.  I do have some concern that the Chromecast Audio may suffer like my Chromecast Ultra which is random disconnects from the Tidal app... but I guess if that does happen I haven't invested too much money.

 

Last night I used Tidal, via Chromecast Ultra, for 3 or so hours.  It lost connection at least 6 times and I was using my phone rather than the iPad (to rule out the iPad).  On the phone the progress bar of the playing track just stops however music/video keeps playing on stereo/TV.  I have to restart the app and it usually reconnects ok however I lose any tracks I have queued up which is really frustrating.

 

The Chromecast Ultra is networked by cable and I have a quality router/wifi.  The house is relatively small and is timber so wifi signal shouldn't be the culprit, if it is the Chromecast Audio may make things worse...

[Steak Face]

21 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

If you are considering adding a NAD C268, suggest looking closely at the M10. which has a $250 cashback promotion. It is another step up from the C658.

 

That does look like a possible option and not that much more than C658 & C268 combo, however the lack of physical controls is probably a deal breaker.  My wife and daughter will also be using it (as it's our stereo in the lounge room for music/tv/movies) and I think something too high tech wouldn't be welcomed - it needs to be simple and easy to use.

[Guest dr_carl]

the DAC in the BS is good but you can easily do a lot better for not much $ at all (mine was $180 incl shipping). The BS DAC measures quite poorly, even though you can live with it (I did for months) but a good outboard DAC will improve things noticeably if the rest of the system is revealing.

 

so yes you could just jump on the cheap BS at $450 and then wait till you find a nice DAC.

[pwstereo]

25 minutes ago, Steak Face said:

On the phone the progress bar of the playing track just stops however music/video keeps playing on stereo/TV.  I have to restart the app and it usually reconnects ok however I lose any tracks I have queued up which is really frustrating.

Doesn't that seem to point to the phone and/or app? Not the rest of the signal chain?

What if you just used Tidal on your phone with some headphones connected to the phone, leave everything else out of it to test for a couple of hours. I'm not sure I haven't read that Tidal has inadequate servers or bandwidth at some points of presence in Australia. Perhaps it's Tidal, not your network and equipment?

[hazzac181]

25 minutes ago, Steak Face said:

It's not the connection type to the A12 that's the issue, it's the fact that I can't control my phone (which is connected to the A12 via USB) via the iPad in the Tidal app.  I can do this in Spotify (I think it's called Spotify Connect), but Tidal doesn't appear to offer that. 

 

This set-up means my phone streams the highest quality via USB to the A12 and I get to sit on the lounge with the iPad as a controller/remote to my phone.  Otherwise I have to use BT which compromises sound quality.

 

I did see that and it looks like a reasonable option however why would I need to add a DAC, doesn't the Bluesound have one built in, and my A12 does too?

 

Yep, that's definately the cheapest and simplest solution.  I do have some concern that the Chromecast Audio may suffer like my Chromecast Ultra which is random disconnects from the Tidal app... but I guess if that does happen I haven't invested too much money.

 

Last night I used Tidal, via Chromecast Ultra, for 3 or so hours.  It lost connection at least 6 times and I was using my phone rather than the iPad (to rule out the iPad).  On the phone the progress bar of the playing track just stops however music/video keeps playing on stereo/TV.  I have to restart the app and it usually reconnects ok however I lose any tracks I have queued up which is really frustrating.

 

The Chromecast Ultra is networked by cable and I have a quality router/wifi.  The house is relatively small and is timber so wifi signal shouldn't be the culprit, if it is the Chromecast Audio may make things worse...

I've always found iOS compatibility with Chromecast to be iffy. This is of no help to you, but my roomates occasionally have issues casting YouTube/Netflix to our Chromecast 2. Same as you – file keeps playing but the iPhone appears to lose connection. I have no such issues on my cheap Android phone. 

 

May be worthwhile casting Tidal from Chrome on a laptop to rule out issues with iOS/Chromecast not playing nicely together. Just a thought, and it probably doesn't solve your issue

[Steak Face]

13 minutes ago, pwstereo said:

Doesn't that seem to point to the phone and/or app? Not the rest of the signal chain?

What if you just used Tidal on your phone with some headphones connected to the phone, leave everything else out of it to test for a couple of hours. I'm not sure I haven't read that Tidal has inadequate servers or bandwidth at some points of presence in Australia. Perhaps it's Tidal, not your network and equipment?

You'd think so - that's it's the app.

 

While I've only had Tidal for a few weeks it works perfectly fine:

- on my phone connected to car via USB using Carplay (cellular)

- on my phone using Bluetooth Headphones (cellular)

- on my work laptop using the desktop app (nothing to do with my home system, but it works fine)

 

So I guess it could be something to do with home Wifi (given that it's works fine in car/BT headphones over cellular) however I've been using Spotify and You-Tube cast to Chromecast Ultra and/or built in app on TV for years and never had this type of problem.  The problem only seems to exist with Tidal and the Chromecast Ultra.  I'm going to test it tonight casting Tidal to Airplay (latest gen ATV) and see if that's stable.

 

EDIT: I think when I cast You-Tube it is to the Samsung TV directly rather than through the Chromecast so that could explain why I've never had trouble with You-Tube losing connection on iPad/iPhone.

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Steak Face

[pwstereo]

2 minutes ago, hazzac181 said:

I've always found iOS compatibility with Chromecast to be iffy.

I've not experienced that, perhaps older models of Chromecast were prone to that.

I've got an Ultra, and Audio, and also used regular Chromecast (which I think was Gen 2) for years.

[Steak Face]

8 minutes ago, hazzac181 said:

I've always found iOS compatibility with Chromecast to be iffy. This is of no help to you, but my roomates occasionally have issues casting YouTube/Netflix to our Chromecast 2. Same as you – file keeps playing but the iPhone appears to lose connection. I have no such issues on my cheap Android phone. 

 

May be worthwhile casting Tidal from Chrome on a laptop to rule out issues with iOS/Chromecast not playing nicely together. Just a thought, and it probably doesn't solve your issue

That's good to know.

 

Thinking about it, I use iPad/iPhone to cast You-Tube but I think that goes direct to Samsung TV, not via the Chromecast - and this has been fine.

 

Tonight I'll try casting to Apple TV and disconnect Chromecast all together and see what happens. 

[Snoopy8]

50 minutes ago, Steak Face said:

That does look like a possible option and not that much more than C658 & C268 combo, however the lack of physical controls is probably a deal breaker.  My wife and daughter will also be using it (as it's our stereo in the lounge room for music/tv/movies) and I think something too high tech wouldn't be welcomed - it needs to be simple and easy to use.

If you can use a phone to control your Hifi, you should be able to use the M10. It is  simple and easy to use.

[wasabijim]

On 07/08/2020 at 2:11 PM, Snoopy8 said:

That does look like a possible option and not that much more than C658 & C268 combo, however the lack of physical controls is probably a deal breaker.  My wife and daughter will also be using it (as it's our stereo in the lounge room for music/tv/movies) and I think something too high tech wouldn't be welcomed - it needs to be simple and easy to use.

 

On 07/08/2020 at 2:11 PM, Snoopy8 said:

If you can use a phone to control your Hifi, you should be able to use the M10. It is  simple and easy to use.

 

I think a new unit with streaming backed in is the way forward. The M10 being a solid contender. I've recently switched integrated amps and didn't use the physical remove on either but the app for each. If wife and daughter both have phones, then that's a remote for everyone.... or even use an old one that's just connected to wi-fi purely for managing streaming.