betty boop Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said: Yeah. To be honest I'd consider a panel TV the same size as my screen (115") but I just have never been comfortable with the obsession with nits. Not to mention the absence of 3D. Something EVERY panel TV could support with firmware and an optional dongle (like JVC does). If a projector is the only way I'll get 3d, a panel TV will never be in my home cinema. once i saw 3D on a projector i knew myself why works on projectors and not on panels.... because the whole room experience projector can do... is with good immersion ...it does become quite an immersive experience .... difficult with smaller screens....its kind of strange actually on smaller screen... when larger for the time 65" sets arrived ... panasonic even setup static glasses at the right depth from screen so could view 3D so immersive... but who watched TVs at that sort of distance... so can understand why dropped off .... TVs... but if TVs do become larger ... to point of competing with projector screens hopefully 3D will return... I dont see what is limitation for panels to build in like projectors do... but in any case where screens are getting bigger they are pretty average ones.... larger screens past 80" are outrageously priced and no OLED aware off even past 80"... by time practical and similarly priced vs same size as kind of projector setups are possible will be a long time i suspect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said: Yeah. To be honest I'd consider a panel TV the same size as my screen (115") but I just have never been comfortable with the obsession with nits. Not to mention the absence of 3D. Something EVERY panel TV could support with firmware and an optional dongle (like JVC does). If a projector is the only way I'll get 3d, a panel TV will never be in my home cinema. I was admittedly lucky with my electri cinema screen ; I could keep my JVC for 3d and get UHD as well The higher the NIT;S the less hard it is too tonemap too your displays capabilities . For example a uhd disc mastered to 4000nits is easier to tone map to 1000 nits than an oled at 1/2 that [ leaving aside the oleds black level advantage which helps with tone mapping shadow brightness] And any mastered to 1000nits have obvious advantage.. Good article here about the advantages of hi nits for UHD HDR https://www.lifewire.com/understanding-nits-lumens-brightness-4125499 Quote For 4K Ultra HD LED/LCD TVs that are HDR-compatible, a rating of 500 Nits provides a modest HDR effect (look for labeling such as HDR Premium), and TVs that output 700 Nits will provide a better result with HDR content. However, if you are looking for the best possible result, 1000 Nits is official reference standard (look for labels such as HDR1000), and the Nits top-off for the highest-end HDR LED/LCD TVs is 2,000. Why I went for a 1000+ nit Hisense ; I am too cheap for a similar nit Samsung without dolby vision Amazing how an 85" tv could be cheaper than a epson tw9400 ; would never happen a few years ago.. Edited August 1, 2020 by cwt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, cwt said: I was admittedly lucky with my electri cinema screen ; I could keep my JVC for 3d and get UHD as well The higher the NIT;S the less hard it is too tonemap too your displays capabilities . For example a uhd disc mastered to 4000nits is easier to tone map to 1000 nits than an oled at 1/2 that [ leaving aside the oleds black level advantage which helps with tone mapping shadow brightness] And any mastered to 1000nits have obvious advantage.. Good article here about the advantages of hi nits for UHD HDR I saw kris deering's explanation who oled slaughtered LCD for dynamic range.... it isnt at the top end its actually the low end that makes all the difference ...so i wouldn't just latch onto highlights cwt if you saw dynamic tone mapping of the jvc you would see how well works in practice everything can throw at it seamless, set forget ! I've not had to touch or fiddle or want to since enabled it after the update made possible.... re degree of degree of difficulty... we have to keep in mind day light is some 1,600,000,000 nits vs 0.001 nits of night sky https://www.cnet.com/news/tvs-are-only-getting-brighter-but-how-much-light-is-enough/ i can't ever imagine we will ever get screens capable of reality like that... so tone mapping is always going to be with us. cameras and mastering and tone tone mapping happens all way for us to see what we see on screens now...and will continue to have to do in future time to come.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, betty boop said: cwt if you saw dynamic tone mapping of the jvc you would see how well works in practice everything can throw at it seamless, set forget ! I've not had to touch or fiddle or want to since enabled it after the update made possible.... re degree of degree of difficulty... we have to keep in mind day light is some 1,600,000,000 nits vs 0.001 nits of night sky https://www.cnet.com/news/tvs-are-only-getting-brighter-but-how-much-light-is-enough/ i can't ever imagine we will ever get screens capable of reality like that... so tone mapping is always going to be with us. cameras and mastering and tone tone mapping happens all way for us to see what we see on screens now...and will continue to have to do in future time to come.. Yes Al ; indeed it is the whole dci p3 range not just the highlights . it will be ages before we get the sort of nits Geoff Morisson says about the sony pro set he mentioned . No doubt JVC's drm is as good as it gets for projectors [without getting a Lumagen or Madvr] . The trend I see is towards tech that enhances pop such as nano cells/more nits and Geoff Morrison [who has been around for ages - was once the editor in chief for sound and vision mag] ; getting excited I take notice Still have some of the mags hoarded away Quote Done right, most of the TV screen won't be much brighter than what you already have, most of the time. The benefit is headroom: when the content requires something to be super bright, it can be, just like real life. Quote The best-looking demo at CES was the brightest Sony's 10,000-nit prototype, which just happened to also be 8K, was stupendously bright. One wonders at the power required to drive such a beast. CES 2018 suffered a blackout -- the city of Las Vegas and the Consumer Technology Association blamed it on the rain, but maybe Sony's crazy demo TV was the real culprit. Seriously though, I've been reviewing and writing about TVs for 17 years and I've never resorted to this specific hyperbole: I think this prototype might be the most realistic image I've ever seen. Even in a darkened room off to the side of Sony's booth, the image was incredible. Highlights like reflections, headlights, really anything that required a spike of brightness, was so realistically bright, it added a whole new layer of realism. And you know what, had you told me about how great it looked, I wouldn't have believed you either. I wear sunblock to change a nightlight, so there's no way I would have considered a 10,000-nit TV a good idea. And yet… now I want one. It really looked that good. Edited August 1, 2020 by cwt 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, cwt said: I was admittedly lucky with my electri cinema screen ; I could keep my JVC for 3d and get UHD as well The higher the NIT;S the less hard it is too tonemap too your displays capabilities . For example a uhd disc mastered to 4000nits is easier to tone map to 1000 nits than an oled at 1/2 that [ leaving aside the oleds black level advantage which helps with tone mapping shadow brightness] And any mastered to 1000nits have obvious advantage.. Good article here about the advantages of hi nits for UHD HDR https://www.lifewire.com/understanding-nits-lumens-brightness-4125499 Why I went for a 1000+ nit Hisense ; I am too cheap for a similar nit Samsung without dolby vision Amazing how an 85" tv could be cheaper than a epson tw9400 ; would never happen a few years ago.. I'm more interested in seeing black detail, without having torch bright spots on screen making my retinas close so much I miss it. If I can pause, hold my hand up blocking a bright light on screen and suddenly see way more image detail as my eyes adjust, I've missed it when viewing normally. Light cannon TV's can just get lost as far as I care. Especially in a light controlled theater room. No 3D also reduces my interest so much... I'm still running a 1080p Sony in the living room, and won't bother "upgrading" to a 4k non 3d tv until it does. Edited August 1, 2020 by Mobe1969 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 11 hours ago, Mobe1969 said: I'm more interested in seeing black detail, without having torch bright spots on screen making my retinas close so much I miss it. If I can pause, hold my hand up blocking a bright light on screen and suddenly see way more image detail as my eyes adjust, I've missed it when viewing normally. Light cannon TV's can just get lost as far as I care. Especially in a light controlled theater room. No 3D also reduces my interest so much... I'm still running a 1080p Sony in the living room, and won't bother "upgrading" to a 4k non 3d tv until it does. I can appreciate that ; why oleds with their detailed black levels are popular compared to leds I look at it like Geoff Morrison does below . Dont know what it will take to get 3d back in tv's ; they should have specified a 4k 3d specification but they didnt Quote Not everything on screen will be 10,000 nits Of course there are potential issues. The first, as you can probably guess, is no one wants to have to wear Ray-Bans to watch TV. 10,000 nits is in the range of staring at the sky during midday, staring at a florescent office bulb, and other squint-worthy events not usually considered overly pleasant for long-term viewing. The key? The TV isn't always 10,000 nits. Or at least, it shouldn't be. Ideally just a tiny part of the image, the brightest highlights, would be that bright. Imagine a character walking through the woods at night. Creepy, moody, dark. They take out a flashlight to see their way. The whole scene is still dark, just a few nits, but the just bulb on the flashlight could be 10,000 nits. As bright, perhaps, as if you were standing in that wood yourself. It would be more realistic, since the thing on screen that's supposed to be bright is actually physically bright. It's the beauty of HDR, potentially. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, cwt said: I can appreciate that ; why oleds with their detailed black levels are popular compared to leds I look at it like Geoff Morrison does below . Dont know what it will take to get 3d back in tv's ; they should have specified a 4k 3d specification but they didnt I equate it to standing in a dark room and someone shining a 500 lumen torch in your face. A lot of black detail in the room, but you'd need to stick your hand up in front of the torch so you could actually see it... Edited August 2, 2020 by Mobe1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Here we go. Some domestic news. No details, but a successor to the 570 and 760. https://www.avmagazine.it/amp/news/4K/proiettori-sony-2020-2021_15766.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share Posted August 12, 2020 Great find. Excited for more details on the VPL-VW790.... Quote With the confirmations on other sites in Spain and France, we can say that in September Sony should introduce two new projectors: the VPL-VW790 with laser illumination system and the VPL-VW590 with lamp which will replace the 760 and 570 respectively. they will also have a DSP for dynamic handling of the 'tone mapping' of HDR content, similar to JVC. A substantial reduction in the price is also reported: 12,000 euros for the 790 (3k less than the 760) and 6,990 euros for the 590 (1k less than the 570). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 7 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said: Great find. Excited for more details on the VPL-VW790.... good they are adding tone mapping like JVC..I was mentioning this earlier in this thread ! isnt competition a great thing ! I wished they'd just added it to the 570 and 760 though ? (for existing owners like JVC did) though doesnt look like any new lasers ? which is what thread all about ? its still the 760 with a laser going to 790 with laser. its not like 570 is being made a 590 with laser or anything ? good to see lower price though... probably bring in line with JVC too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) Yes!!! Dynamic tone mapping! I'm glad I held off. This sounds like it is what I was waiting for. Edited August 13, 2020 by Mobe1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 5 hours ago, betty boop said: good they are adding tone mapping like JVC..I was mentioning this earlier in this thread ! isnt competition a great thing ! I wished they'd just added it to the 570 and 760 though ? (for existing owners like JVC did) though doesnt look like any new lasers ? which is what thread all about ? Would be a shock to the system for 760es owners Al ? And a lesser amount to 570 owners. At these price levels JVC's method of upgrading is certainly fairer imo Funny how this leak comes just after the JVC upgraded DTM announcement ; will be interesting to see how the algorithms compare for sure .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franin Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Curious to see how much the 790es will be in $Au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, cwt said: Would be a shock to the system for 760es owners Al ? And a lesser amount to 570 owners. At these price levels JVC's method of upgrading is certainly fairer imo Funny how this leak comes just after the JVC upgraded DTM announcement ; will be interesting to see how the algorithms compare for sure . hehe it is a coincidence isnt ? it. look its good someone is releasing something new in these crazy times. yeah i can imagine some with 760/570 a bit miffed ! but never know maybe sony might be kind like jvc and give those folks an update. my thoughts are even if you charge for it... if its as good as jvc, if i were a sony owner...id pay for it definitely be interesting how the algorithms compare. am sure usual suspects kris deering and our friends in Germany will be soon on to it ! 1 hour ago, franin said: Curious to see how much the 790es will be in $Au the current price on 760es locally is $22.9 it seems maybe drop to $20k ? locally ? with new model ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franin Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 The question is wether Sony has updated their SXRD Panels with these new models? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, cwt said: Would be a shock to the system for 760es owners Al ? And a lesser amount to 570 owners. At these price levels JVC's method of upgrading is certainly fairer imo Funny how this leak comes just after the JVC upgraded DTM announcement ; will be interesting to see how the algorithms compare for sure .. It'd be a bigger shock for 870 owners. No successor, and even the current firmware and capabilities are below the 760, and no firmware update since way behind the last 760 firmware. I'd be asking myself why I paid the extra 10k... Edited August 13, 2020 by Mobe1969 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said: It'd be a bigger shock for 870 owners. No successor, and even the current firmware and capabilities are below the 760, and no firmware update since way behind the last 760 firmware. I'd be asking myself why I paid the extra 10k... oh the 10k more is the optics the famous sony arc-F (and light engine that goes with it)that takes upto level of the jvc z1/n9 that sort of optics just costs ... who knows re the 870... the old 1000ES had similar treatment ...with that same arc-F left withering on the vine... till dropped off ! probably come back... the optimistic me says ... an update might still come... perhaps working on something better... dont forget JVC shown same treament to the z1.... no DTM for it . not sure Z1 is still even readily available. I thought i read its a special order thing... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, betty boop said: oh the 10k more is the optics the famous sony arc-F (and light engine that goes with it)that takes upto level of the jvc z1/n9 that sort of optics just costs ... who knows re the 870... the old 1000ES had similar treatment ...with that same arc-F left withering on the vine... till dropped off ! probably come back... the optimistic me says ... an update might still come... perhaps working on something better... dont forget JVC shown same treament to the z1.... no DTM for it . not sure Z1 is still even readily available. I thought i read its a special order thing... Software based functionality I can nearly excuse on the basis of hardware needs. But given DTM is really using the same underlying logic as the dynamic iris, it is hard to understand. I see on AVS the 760 is getting a firmware update so I hope that does give some semblance of DTM. And the 790 has some other feature warranting new hardware. I could have got a z1 cheap, but it to me had too many things to me against it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franin Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 58 minutes ago, betty boop said: oh the 10k more is the optics the famous sony arc-F (and light engine that goes with it)that takes upto level of the jvc z1/n9 that sort of optics just costs ... That’s really It Al, just the lens. The rest was very similar to the 760es. That was my other issue with the 870es for the money they were asking it really needed to be Better than the 760es in every other way but it wasn’t. I hope the 790es is a big step up in every way. Does it come with an Arc-F lens ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, franin said: That’s really It Al, just the lens. The rest was very similar to the 760es. That was my other issue with the 870es for the money they were asking it really needed to be Better than the 760es in every other way but it wasn’t. I hope the 790es is a big step up in every way. Does it come with an Arc-F lens ? nope the 760 doesnt come with the arc-F lens so I can't expect the 790 will. cant expect to fit arc-f in and charge less for what it is now. isnt the 790 just 760 with tone mapping ? thats how seems to read ? is there anything to say theyre adding anything more ? again i dont expect they will and drop price. its qudos as is they are dropping price and including more... though probably doesnt help those with the older model who have less and paid more... but such is life on the AV wagon theres no point looking back what paid its always going to be more than what its worth down the track ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franin Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Who knows panasonic might come out with DTM which destroys the DTM on JVC and Sony. Will be all then be rushing out to update our players 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 The 570ES is now finished. Wonder what replaces it and when? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, oztheatre said: The 570ES is now finished. Wonder what replaces it and when? hi oz, see note above 590es.... seems to be 570es with tone mapping update ... ps nothing to do with any lasers from what understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 18 hours ago, betty boop said: hehe it is a coincidence isnt ? it. look its good someone is releasing something new in these crazy times. yeah i can imagine some with 760/570 a bit miffed ! but never know maybe sony might be kind like jvc and give those folks an update. my thoughts are even if you charge for it... if its as good as jvc, if i were a sony owner...id pay for it definitely be interesting how the algorithms compare. am sure usual suspects kris deering and our friends in Germany will be soon on to it ! the current price on 760es locally is $22.9 it seems maybe drop to $20k ? locally ? with new model ? I had 2 760's, one went straight back, lens was so bad it was unwatchable, possibly dropped on it's head by courier, 2nd one better but still not even as good as a jvc x35, even my epson 9400 has a better lens which is insanity considering the price difference. Al, do you know much about the tone mapping coming out on the new marantz receivers? sounds good but unsure of the depth it goes to? Maybe mobs like marantz will pick up the beans and get this sorted? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 On 13/08/2020 at 11:11 AM, betty boop said: good they are adding tone mapping like JVC..I was mentioning this earlier in this thread ! isnt competition a great thing ! I wished they'd just added it to the 570 and 760 though ? (for existing owners like JVC did) though doesnt look like any new lasers ? which is what thread all about ? its still the 760 with a laser going to 790 with laser. its not like 570 is being made a 590 with laser or anything ? good to see lower price though... probably bring in line with JVC too I just hope they're bright enough this time round? I do love the Sony motion, it's the best thing they do imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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