davewantsmoore Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 4 hours ago, Red Spade Audio said: I've seen this many times in systems that I've tested, it's quite common. I've also seen many cases where the setup wasn't lacking in this aspect but they hadn't dialed in a suitable room curve. I've seen many systems where they actually have more actual in-room bass extension than they realised, yet they didn't have the impression of enough extension. Quite often there is a big difference between what people have and what they think they have. 1000% If you smooth the frequency response below 100Hz agressively (usually agressive smoothing is needed to account for all the peaks and dips) ... and the response is dropping, or even flat. It's not going to sound right (ear, being more and more sensitive to errors in level as the frequncy goes down). 3 hours ago, spottie said: What would be a ballpark figure for minimum rms power per cubic metre for "live concert experience" in a typical home? Would be great to hear from your experience. Power is not the right way to look at it. Displacement is. (ie. how big is the driver, and how far does it move .... -> SPL). You don't want to use lots of power. The less power for a given displacement the better. 2 hours ago, Red Spade Audio said: When you reach a midbass level of 120 dB, I'd call that the "chest thump threshold." I was going to say 115dB. This is "cinema/dolby reference 0dB level" (ie. 105dB) ... with the extra specificed 10dB headroom for bass. But this is like at ~80Hz. At octaves lower .... I think louder. Don't crack the house foundations. 2 hours ago, Red Spade Audio said: That's the easy part. Yep... not having a lumpy response, with nulls in it.... is the actual work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 4 hours ago, Essence said: Its nice to have an excess of headroom, just because it can play loud doesn't mean you have to run it loud. Yes. 4 hours ago, Essence said: Not to familiar with Powersoft amplifiers but ..... Powersoft designed ipal https://www.powersoft.com/en/product/amp-modules/ipalmod/ The ipal drivers are built to be used with it (their low Re and high BL). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 On 29/06/2020 at 7:53 PM, Red Spade Audio said: When you reach a midbass level of 120 dB, I'd call that the "chest thump threshold." .... In reality, people don't usually have a specific SPL target in mind. wow that seems loud - what frequency range do you call "mid bass" - Google says 140-400Hz...surely your comment relates to peaks of 120dB? In my younger years I've likely been to many live gigs with peaks of ~120dB (to my detriment), but I've measured peaks of 120dB in band practise rooms where at that volume IMHO hearing protection is mandatory. I do get that having an SPL target makes a lot of sense - have you had clients that want 120dB @ 100Hz/80Hz? On 29/06/2020 at 10:23 PM, davewantsmoore said: ... I was going to say 115dB. This is "cinema/dolby reference 0dB level" (ie. 105dB) ... with the extra specificed 10dB headroom for bass. But this is like at ~80Hz. At octaves lower .... I think louder. Don't crack the house foundations. Yep... not having a lumpy response, with nulls in it.... is the actual work. Agreed that the smooth bass response is the hard part - and the most important. True bass nuts chasing "equal loudness" with the falling response of the ear (ie Fletcher Munson) as @davewantsmoore says will be risking their house foundations at the lowest octaves. As an interesting anecdote, the band I sing in has played a particular outdoor gig for many years. This gig comes with a stage, pro rig and a sound engineer. The bar is off to the side, and the punters stay there, as it's loud in front of the stage. I once discussed with the sound engineer backing off the volume to entice the punters away from the bar. The sound engineer responded with, "it's 110dB at front of stage, I can't go lower unless you all go 'unplugged' "... ...the bar remains packed, but we get enough people dancing to keep us coming back... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Spade Audio Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 Just now, almikel said: wow that seems loud - what frequency range do you call "mid bass" - Google says 140-400Hz...surely your comment relates to peaks of 120dB? In my younger years I've likely been to many live gigs with peaks of ~120dB (to my detriment), but I've measured peaks of 120dB in band practise rooms where at that volume IMHO hearing protection is mandatory. I do get that having an SPL target makes a lot of sense - have you had clients that want 120dB @ 100Hz/80Hz? Agreed that the smooth bass response is the hard part - and the most important. True bass nuts chasing "equal loudness" with the falling response of the ear (ie Fletcher Munson) as @davewantsmoore says will be risking their house foundations at the lowest octaves. I'd call 140 - 400Hz low midrange. Others may define this differently but I'd class midbass as approximately 40 - 60 Hz. I came up with the 120 dB midbass chest thump threshold based on a particular system that I designed and set up for a night club client. It was a 4 way horn loaded system. I found that once the level on the dance floor reached 120 dB around 45 - 55 Hz, you could feel that chest pounding sensation. The mids and highs were lower in level. Of course, using different music or even a system with a different response, you may find a very different result. The details around how you measure can also have a big impact. As a rule, clients don't specify SPL targets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, Red Spade Audio said: I'd call 140 - 400Hz low midrange 25 minutes ago, Red Spade Audio said: Others may define this differently but I'd class midbass as approximately 40 - 60 Hz. In my setup I regard my TD18 drivers as "mid bass" (running approx 60 - 300Hz) and funnily enough, when people comment that it's ridiculous I run 18" drivers for mid range I respond with, "the 18"s are my mid bass not my mid range", but they're obviously running up into the lower mid range. 120dB makes much more sense <60Hz - definitely in sub territory for a home setup - and decent SPL/cone radiating area Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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