ME

[Dave o]

Who are the ME guru's in Brisbane and Melb?

[jvpjordan]

In Melbourne, Winovate. Located in Dandenong South

[arthur63]

Ron Berger (Ponytail on this forum) at Winovate is your man. 
He has serviced my ME components.

[andyr]

On 23/12/2019 at 4:27 PM, Dave o said:

Who are the ME guru's in Brisbane and Melb?

 

But you appear to be located in Syderney, Dave?

 

Trevor at Rage Electronics is your man, there.

 

Andy

 

[PonyTail]

PonyTail waves his hand, here for you in Melbourne, but Trevor is your man for Sydney and north, unless Peter Stein can help from Karanda. (way North)

 

Currently my time for ME repairs is limited by other work and mostly by my mothers health, diagnosed this week with Gillian Barre Syndrome at 94 Years and 50 Weeks, so my attention span here is limited. Fortunately the IVIG treatment and respiratory  support over NYE night seems to have helped, but there is a long way to go from paralysis to walking/driving again.

 

Wishing A/all here a happy new year, and hope to be more active here on the forum when I can. 

 

Ron/PonyTail.

 

[arthur63]

Hi Ron,

I hope that your mother's health improves.

All the Best.

 

Arthur

[kelossus]

And there lies my gripe with ME gear. Not just the costly maintenance required but only a select few can repair it and offer no assistance to interstate techs. The only option is the expense and risk of freighting it to them. I like ME gear but avoid it these days as no one in Brisbane has been given the keys to the castle.

 

What happens when these tech's retire?

 

[andyr]

42 minutes ago, kelossus said:

And there lies my gripe with ME gear. Not just the costly maintenance required but only a select few can repair it and offer no assistance to interstate techs. The only option is the expense and risk of freighting it to them. I like ME gear but avoid it these days as no one in Brisbane has been given the keys to the castle.

 

In what way is this any different to, say, Naim ... or Audio Research? 

 

And in terms of "costly maintenance required " ... surely it's only because ME - like Naim - come right out and say "PS re-capping is required every 10 years " that you're even aware there's maintenance required down the track?  I've never noticed this comment made about Japanese mass-market amps that JB and HN sell - yet a 10-yr re-cap is just as much required for these amps as for Naim & ME.

 

42 minutes ago, kelossus said:

 

What happens when these techs retire?

 

 

That will be a problem! 

 

The only ways out of this dilemma, the way I see it, is to:

1. build your amps from kits - which should mean you are familiar enough with the circuit to be able to diagnose any problems that arise
2. or buy mass-market gear that many shops sell - so there are many places you can take it to, for repair.

 

Andy

 

[frankn]

I’d say it’s also because ME have not been in production for 15yrs so many units on the market are up for a rebuild and many Original (or perhaps 2nd, 3rd ) owners don’t have them rebuilt. 
Also, ME build quality was a bit hit & miss so a re-cap (Energy story matrix and PS) often leads to finding a number of other issues that then need to be fixed. 
The new ME from Winnovate is different of course but it’s not the original design by Peter. 

[Monkeyboi]

My understanding with why ME gear servicing is not farmed out to all and sundry is quality control.  ME gear by its design is specialised in many ways.  Yes there are some garden variety components and some parts are relatively generic in their implementation, BUT others aren't.  Most of the amplifier and some of the power supply electronics requires matched semiconductors to within very fine tolerances. Likewise the selection of some of the passive components.  You read a lot in these forums about how superior X brand capacitors or resistors are over the Y brand or generic parts, so when Peter Stein designed and built his range of amplifiers he selected and used specific parts to attain that characteristic ME sound and reliability.

 

Now just think for one moment what might be the outcome of farming out your servicing to all and sundry?  No quality control over workmanship, no control over the quality of spare parts, no guarantee about the repairer knowing about the specifics of the product etc, etc, etc.  It would be like some backyard hack mechanic working on your high tech motor vehicle.   I'm sure everyone has had a bad experience with a tradie or tech that didn't know what they were doing and had to bear the brunt of the consequences.    Peter Sein has spent many decades designing and improving his audio products.  Brand reputation IMHO is everything.  Start farming out your production and servicing to just anyone and you risk your product getting a poor reputation for after sales service.  It only takes a few bad experiences to permanently damage your brand reputation.

 

I personally recommend that ME servicing be retained in-house to a selected number of authorised ME repairers. That way you can be assured that your ME gear will be properly serviced when required so that your equipment will maintain its correct and specified operating parameters.  If you've ever lifted the lid on a piece of ME gear you will immediately notice that the designer made it to be modular and serviceable.  ME (Modular Electronics) by name and by design.  With a few hand tools the average semi-skilled person can remove the modules and send them off for repair to an authorised ME repairer.  So if the left channel develops a fault in your 45kg ME-850HC power amp you don't necessarily need to put the entire amplifier into its original pinewood shipping crate and send it back, you can simply send back just the defective module well packed to be expertly repaired to an authorised ME service tech for a fraction of the cost in freight.  

 

Just a note:  I've personally dealt with Peter Stein (ME) and Trevor Wilson (rage Audio).  Both are highly recommended, knowledgeable  and pleasant guys to deal with.  I'm confident that if you approach either of these gentlemen you will be able to have your ME gear serviced to a very high standard indeed.  I've not yet had dealings with Winovate but I'm quite sure you could expect the same level of excellent service and product knowledge you'd get from ME or Rage Audio.

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[kelossus]

45 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

In what way is this any different to, say, Naim ... or Audio Research? 

 

And in terms of "costly maintenance required " ... surely it's only because ME - like Naim - come right out and say "PS re-capping is required every 10 years " that you're even aware there's maintenance required down the track?  I've never noticed this comment made about Japanese mass-market amps that JB and HN sell - yet a 10-yr re-cap is just as much required for these amps as for Naim & ME.

 

 

That will be a problem! 

 

The only ways out of this dilemma, the way I see it, is to:

1. build your amps from kits - which should mean you are familiar enough with the circuit to be able to diagnose any problems that arise
2. or buy mass-market gear that many shops sell - so there are many places you can take it to, for repair.

 

Andy

 

Caps are a given. You have the fan, fan sensor and foam to replace at what seems to be a more regular interval than the caps. Also some models require the heat sinks to be replaced. Difference between Naim and ME? Naim has one authorised repair agent in QLD and about 3 others who will repair them locally.

 

You will get no assistance from anyone in regards to repairing ME gear. In comparison you can email Nelson Pass and he will kindly guide you on repairing the older models. Same goes for Dagostino and Krell. I had a problem with my Vitus amp a year ago. They sent me a link to the part I needed buy and an excerpt from the service manual on how to replace it.

[kelossus]

Matched parts blah blah bah. It's no different to any respected manufacturer i.e. Krell, Pass Labs, Vitus.

 

Any good tech with a little help would be able to fix ME amps. Yet folks keep playing it up like they are the most complicated, sophisticated amp design ever made. If you take your ME amp or any amp to a dodgy repairer you get what you pay for. The amps are old, the brand is pretty much defunct and there is a monopoly on the service side of things.

 

If anything I am speaking out of shear frustration as I like ME amps. They are great. However they are old and do require a service and regular maintenance. For someone in Brisbane it's extremely frustrating.

Edited January 2, 2020 by kelossus

[Monkeyboi]

3 hours ago, kelossus said:

Matched parts blah blah bah. It's no different to any respected manufacturer i.e. Krell, Pass Labs, Vitus.

 

Any good tech with a little help would be able to fix ME amps. Yet folks keep playing it up like they are the most complicated, sophisticated amp design ever made. If you take your ME amp or any amp to a dodgy repairer you get what you pay for. The amps are old, the brand is pretty much defunct and there is a monopoly on the service side of things.

 

If anything I am speaking out of shear frustration as I like ME amps. They are great. However they are old and do require a service and regular maintenance. For someone in Brisbane it's extremely frustrating.

I've seen and had to fix the "handiwork" of some so called authorised repairers.  8 months to replace an RCA socket on an amplifier.  Claimed the delay was because it was, to quote - "a cosmetic part, hence the delay..."  If it wasn't new and under warranty I would have done it myself.  In the process of swapping out the damaged socket they created another fault.   

 

You can repair your own ME gear if you want to.  There is nothing stopping you from doing this.  My ME-850HC developed a fan related fault.  I was quite prepared to repair it myself having 40+ years experience in the industry.  On due enquiry I was sent a circuit diagram for the power supply controller card and a complimentary pack of parts that would possibly contribute to causing the fan to run continuously at full speed.  After checking a few voltages with the aid of the schematic I traced the problem to a faulty logic chip.  All of about 60c worth of part.  Yes they do fail occasionally.  Nothing in the electronics world remains perfect forever.

 

I read many negative comments regarding the after sales service on ME gear but strangely no mention of the lack of service information about Apple gear.  For those familiar and worshippers at the church of Apple will know that getting last year's iPhone, iPad, iPod or Apple TV device fixed outside of warranty by an authorised Apple centre is near on impossible.  Apple are notorious for not sharing their service data with anyone outside of authorised Apple service centres and even are reluctant to consider repairing anything outside of the warranty period.  They have also been accused of refusing to supply spare parts to 3rd parties who are prepared to attempt a repair.  I'm lead to believe his is now up for challenge in the USA.  Rather they tend to tell the customer their precious Apple device is uneconomic to repair even though they haven't even taken a look at it.  Instead they direct you to the Apple Store next where you are greedily encouraged to buy a brand new piece of iSnot to replace it with.  

 

At least ME gear uses generic easily available parts, albeit quality components.  Yes, often semiconductors need to be matched for gain to ensure reliable operation in direct coupled circuits to prevent d.c. offset drift, but this isn't exclusive to ME.

 

As I stated in my previous reply. ME gear is designed around a modular approach.  So if for instance the MM phono board in your ME25 preamp develops a fault all you need do is remove the top cover, unplug a few connector from the said board, remove the board, securely package it up and post it to Trevor Wilson at Rage Audio where I'm 100% confident it will be expertly repaired and returned to you as if it was new.  It's not rocket science guys.

 

Cheers,

Alan R. 

[JohnL]

Make absolutely GREAT gear that lasts for YONKS and STILL get complaints.

A fair amount of the overpriced lesser quality gear out there would have died in the A*S by now.......

BUT NOT ME!!!!!

 

"Wahh.....my 25 year old PLUS amp needs a service."

 

Come on guys.........that is simply a flattering reflection on how well built the thing actually was.

 

The fact that ME gear will easily outlive the Designer and current tech guru's is a concern I understand.

I wouldn't want someone poking around my ME 24 and ME 850 if I didn't think they knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

 

I am 56........Peter Stein started doing his stuff when I was just a teenager!!!!! 

 

Hopefully some of the tech minded fanboi's on here can study up and take up the servicing mantle for the next 20 years!!!!   

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by JohnL

[kelossus]

11 minutes ago, JohnL said:

Make absolutely GREAT gear that lasts for YONKS and STILL get complaints.

A fair amount of the overpriced lesser quality gear out there would have died in the A*S by now.......

BUT NOT ME!!!!!

Yes they make great gear. No they don't last a life time, hence why the regular maintenance is required. As above it's not just a recap every so often there are other perishables inside that require more regular maintenance. I had a Krell KSA50 MKII recently, made in the early 80's. Original caps, original fan. The capacitors measured above the specified rating and it had held bias after all those years of blistering temperatures. ME aren't the only company to manufacture reliable gear.

 

15 minutes ago, JohnL said:

Come on guys.........that is simply a flattering reflection on how well built the thing actually was.

Buy an older model ME1400/ME1500 with the nasty heatsinks and tell me how well made they are. You are looking at around 3k to sort it out. Trevor pretty much told me it's not worth it. A boat anchor.

 

16 minutes ago, JohnL said:

Hopefully some of the tech minded fanboi's on here can study up and take up the servicing mantle for the next 20 years!!!!   

 

That's the issue, the information isn't being passed on. There is nothing to study.

 

Again I like ME gear, it's great, but as a Brisbane based member long term ownership isn't sensible. Better off buying well designed newer amp that is serviceable locally.

[JohnL]

 

 

41 minutes ago, kelossus said:

Yes they make great gear. No they don't last a life time, hence why the regular maintenance is required. As above it's not just a recap every so often there are other perishables inside that require more regular maintenance. I had a Krell KSA50 MKII recently, made in the early 80's. Original caps, original fan. The capacitors measured above the specified rating and it had held bias after all those years of blistering temperatures. ME aren't the only company to manufacture reliable gear.

 

Buy an older model ME1400/ME1500 with the nasty heatsinks and tell me how well made they are. You are looking at around 3k to sort it out. Trevor pretty much told me it's not worth it. A boat anchor.

 

That's the issue, the information isn't being passed on. There is nothing to study.

 

Again I like ME gear, it's great, but as a Brisbane based member long term ownership isn't sensible. Better off buying well designed newer amp that is serviceable locally.

Even allowing for difficulty of service choosing a power amp based on anything other than SQ still strikes me as just plain wrong..

 

I wish you good luck in your search anyway though.

Edited January 2, 2020 by JohnL

[kelossus]

8 minutes ago, JohnL said:

 

 

Even allowing for difficulty of service choosing a power amp based on anything other than SQ still strikes me as just plain wrong..

 

I wish you good luck in your search anyway though.

Errrrr we are talking about gear approaching 30 years old.........I think it's a sensible thing to consider. SQ doesn't matter when your left with a boat anchor.

[JohnL]

16 minutes ago, kelossus said:

Errrrr we are talking about gear approaching 30 years old.........I think it's a sensible thing to consider. SQ doesn't matter when your left with a boat anchor.

Fair enough.

Haven't had to touch my ME 850 or ME 24 since buying them many years ago.

Might get Ponytail to give them a once over.

Another 20 years will do me nicely.

I will either be already gone or deaf as a post.

Either way.......never will they be "boat anchors" for me......LOL

Edited January 2, 2020 by JohnL

[Monkeyboi]

Geez this thread has me ROFLMAO.   Seriously guys?  Does anyone here actually believe that a bit of hi-fi kit is going to last forever?

Let us just come to grips with reality.  Electrolytic capacitors no matter what the brand or price are not going to last forever.  Just visit any component manufacturer's website or consult their datasheets to check out the operational lifetime expectancy.  So expect your gear to eventually require re-capping.  

 

As for things like air filters, foam baffling, fans, switches and relays / contactors.  They eventually fail and require replacement.  Foam rubber perishes.  There's nothing you can do about except maybe keep in a vacuum and complete darkness which is impractical.  The bearings in fans eventually seize up or the windings fail.   Replacing a foam baffle, filter or a fan is no big deal.  If you for some reason can't obtain the OEM part many equivalents can be sourced by resourceful individuals.  For the foam baffle just remove the old perished one, whip down to a foam rubber supplier like Clark Rubber and they will cut you up a replacement.  For the filters many options exist.  The same or similar is used in many air-conditioners and can also be purchased from a lot of electronics parts stores.  Fans are a similar story.  Look up the specs of the failed unit and buy the same or an equivalent from an electronics parts store. 

 

So we have a few rabbiting on about having to have their 30 year old amp needing a bit of TLC after decades of faultless service.    OMG, how short sighted can you get?  Just like with a car, would you trust your $50,000+ marvel of modern technology to just any backyard hack that's neither qualified or properly equipped to do the job properly?  Not this little monkey.  If I don't know enough about something I leave the task to qualified and experienced people who do.  It's just common sense.

 

If you believe you're up to the task of repairing any electronics well go for it!  If you don't know what you are doing, you don't have the skills, equipment or you just don't feel confident to do it yourself then I respectfully suggest you pass it onto someone that does.  The one thing ME gear has going for it is it uses pretty much quality generic through hole components, unlike some newer gear that uses limited run propriety parts that can only be sourced from the manufacturer and that assumes they will even be prepared to supply them.  A little like Apple products.  Hmmm  I think I mentioned that before.  

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[bob_m_54]

And just to ad to Alan's post, if you do decide to "have a go" yourself, just remember that there aren't many techs keen to take on a job that someone has already "had a go at" It could make the repair a lot more expensive than it may have been. Just from my experience

[kelossus]

11 hours ago, Monkeyboi said:

Geez this thread has me ROFLMAO.   Seriously guys?  Does anyone here actually believe that a bit of hi-fi kit is going to last forever?

 

I certainly don't.

 

11 hours ago, Monkeyboi said:

As for things like air filters, foam baffling, fans, switches and relays / contactors.  They eventually fail and require replacement.  Foam rubber perishes.  There's nothing you can do about except maybe keep in a vacuum and complete darkness which is impractical.  The bearings in fans eventually seize up or the windings fail.   Replacing a foam baffle, filter or a fan is no big deal.  If you for some reason can't obtain the OEM part many equivalents can be sourced by resourceful individuals.  For the foam baffle just remove the old perished one, whip down to a foam rubber supplier like Clark Rubber and they will cut you up a replacement.  For the filters many options exist.  The same or similar is used in many air-conditioners and can also be purchased from a lot of electronics parts stores.  Fans are a similar story.  Look up the specs of the failed unit and buy the same or an equivalent from an electronics parts store.

No need for the long winded breakdown of the components that need to be replaced, it is a given that things perish. I am not saying otherwise. Could you imagine if I sold an ME1400 here and said "The fan broke so I went to jaycar/RS components and bought a similar model" same for the foam "Foam perished so I found something that looked similar at Clark Rubber". The ME fans would have a spit! Even if that is all Trevor would do the dolled up complexity of servicing these things has been ingrained in everyone.

 

11 hours ago, Monkeyboi said:

So we have a few rabbiting on about having to have their 30 year old amp needing a bit of TLC after decades of faultless service.    OMG, how short sighted can you get?  Just like with a car, would you trust your $50,000+ marvel of modern technology to just any backyard hack that's neither qualified or properly equipped to do the job properly?  Not this little monkey.  If I don't know enough about something I leave the task to qualified and experienced people who do.  It's just common sense.

 

If you believe you're up to the task of repairing any electronics well go for it!  If you don't know what you are doing, you don't have the skills, equipment or you just don't feel confident to do it yourself then I respectfully suggest you pass it onto someone that does.  The one thing ME gear has going for it is it uses pretty much quality generic through hole components, unlike some newer gear that uses limited run propriety parts that can only be sourced from the manufacturer and that assumes they will even be prepared to supply them.  A little like Apple products.  Hmmm  I think I mentioned that before.  

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

So many ridiculous straw man arguments. I never mentioned taking the amp to some hack to repair or having a go myself. Any good tech could service these things, that's my point. Not a backyard bush mechanic not a DIYer. Also you will not get any assistance in regards to servicing or recommended components to use. Unless you want to actually address the points I am making I don't see why you keep posting.

 

 

[t_mike]

Wow, we have some bratty kids in here. Can we get back to the OP's question? I don't think he asked for opinions for or against his kit, just opinions on who could service it.

[rantan]

20 minutes ago, t_mike said:

Wow, we have some bratty kids in here. Can we get back to the OP's question? I don't think he asked for opinions for or against his kit, just opinions on who could service it.

100% agree. It should be simple, as was the OP's question, but it seems ME threads always end up this way.

 

Love V Hate.

[kelossus]

His question was answered within the first few posts.

 

I did get a little off topic with my whole rant. It's very easy to get sucked into these back and forth disagreements and in hindsight I should have just shut up.

 

Many a times I type up a response in a thread only to click delete before actually posting. Perhaps I should have done the same here.

Edited January 3, 2020 by kelossus

[Monkeyboi]

11 hours ago, kelossus said:

I certainly don't.

 

No need for the long winded breakdown of the components that need to be replaced, it is a given that things perish. I am not saying otherwise. Could you imagine if I sold an ME1400 here and said "The fan broke so I went to jaycar/RS components and bought a similar model" same for the foam "Foam perished so I found something that looked similar at Clark Rubber". The ME fans would have a spit! Even if that is all Trevor would do the dolled up complexity of servicing these things has been ingrained in everyone.

 

So many ridiculous straw man arguments. I never mentioned taking the amp to some hack to repair or having a go myself. Any good tech could service these things, that's my point. Not a backyard bush mechanic not a DIYer. Also you will not get any assistance in regards to servicing or recommended components to use. Unless you want to actually address the points I am making I don't see why you keep posting.

 

 

Wooooooooow Nellie.  Don't get off your bike.  I'll pick your pump up for you.

 

As I stated earlier, I've repaired the power supply controller card on my ME-850HC and have recapped my ME25.  The latter with some nice Panasonic (IIRC) caps kindly supplied to me by Trevor at Rage Audio at cost.  The choice of capacitors completely approved by Peter Stein as the original ME caps are no longer available and haven't been for some time now.  No degradation in performance with the Panasonics. 

 

I can only speak for myself in saying that I have had the utmost support from Peter Stein and Trevor Wilson at Rage Audio with respect to technical support in repairing and upgrading (re-capping) my ME gear.  If anything I believe Trevor has gone well beyond what could be possibly expected in supporting the ME products I have.  I have the utmost professional and personal respect for Trevor.  Not only a real nice person to deal with but IMHO is extremely knowledgeable and professional when it comes to audio equipment.  

 

As for aftersales support. Maybe this might be an appropriate time to recant my experience with my ME-850HC power amp.  I purchased it from Rage Audio, but unfortunately Trevor didn't have one in stock at the time and there was no certainty that ME would be producing any more units in the foreseeable future.  Now I could have bought an alternative amplifier but the choice was limited with available power amps capable of driving a 2 ohm load with the desired output power.  Trevor approached Peter Stein and asked if he still had enough stock components and the required hardware to build one.  His reply was yes, but it would take a couple of months to build and test one.

 

So my ME-850HC was shipped directly from Peter Stein.  In transit the amplifier sustained a small amount of extra rough handling by the courier.  Yes, putting a fragile sticker on the crate actually translates to "drop test from a great height".  Anyhow when it arrived one of the feet had shattered and one channel was completely dead.    A quick phone call to Peter got the ball rolling very promptly along with much apologies for something that clearly wasn't his fault.  Peter put two new feet in an express post pack and they were on my doorstep within 2 days.  He also asked me if I was prepared to lid the lid and do an visual inspection of the interior which required a special security screwdriver bit which Peter was more than happy to supply.  I had the required tool and on lifting the lid discovered the connector on the end of the three pin Molex connector attached to cable connecting the XLR input socket had come adrift.  No big deal to reconnect it.  Peter also put in the post pack a complete set of the special gold plated screws just in case I damaged any of them getting the top panel off.  Me also emailed me a suggestion to take note of the orientation of the top panel when removing it so that aligning the securing screws on replacing it would make the replacing easier

 

When the fan developed a problem of running continuously I contacted Trevor at Rage Audio.  He was extremely helpful even though the amp was well out of warranty.  He sent me a kit of parts that might be the possible suspects causing the fault and a schematic of the power supply controller card.  It turned out to be a 60c CMOS logic IC that had failed.  I asked Trevor what I owed him for the kit of parts and got the reply "Nothing.  I stand behind the products I sell."  In my opinion it says it all about ME products and the people like Trevor that sold them and continue to this day to service them.  

 

If your experience with ME products and aftersales service has not been to your satisfaction I can only take your word for that.  As for myself and many other ME owners that I personally know it certainly hasn't been the same as yours.  I can't praise the product or the aftersales service more highly.  

 

Cheers,

Alan R.