Javs' Theatre - Initial Thoughts and Ideas

[Javs]

Hey guys,

 

This is way off from any build, but I think its time to start collating some thoughts and ideas / help in how I will do my theatre next year. Time to start putting it all in one place... Hopefully this will just evolve into my build when the time comes.

 

This is a repost from AVS, but due to building regs in Australia I would like to hear from people who have built houses and new theatres these days and oviously had to pass regulations too and any workarounds you used.

 

So we just bought our first plot of land in a new development in the Central Coast Australia, it wont be ready for another 12 months, So I will start a house build mid next year , but I am obviously obsessing and thinking about things pretty hard now  before we go ahead and get everything finalised with design. Meaning, how much I ask them to do, vs how much I do myself. I dont think they will allow me to just have them frame up the room and leave it, I think I will need to have at least 1 layer of drywall installed before the 'Occupancy Certificate' can be issued for us to move in.

 

I do know  one thing, I have a floor plan of the overall house, and pretty much  know my total room size and shape already, so within those constraints I have to maximise the best possible theatre with what I have to work with.

One row of four seats, and possibly a very thin bar right behind that, which the wife has requested.

 

 

The room will be 18ft 8" x 13ft 5" x 9ft before any work is done. Assuming this is one layer of drywall, so the final dimensions will be a tad less - If I had a bigger space to work with I would just do double stud, but I think I will need to clip and channel.

 

I am pretty certain it would be OK for me to have them clip and channel the room and install double drywall and GG, but then I worry about the super finer details about AC ducting etc, which is often discussed in this thread. So I am not sure if I just have to bite the bullet and have only one layer of drywall installed and then rip it all out when I move in and start again. That part is up in the air. The best solution would be to have them install the studs and that it, then walk away from the room and I will pay other builders to come and do exactly what I want. I know, it sounds weird, but volume builders dont allow a whole lot of F'ing around from how they do things.

 

As for the bummer, the house which will be built  will need to have windows looking out to the patio due to code and council appearances approvals, so I  will be plugging them up after the fact so from the outside they just look normal with  curtains or blinds drawn, but from the inside I think I will actually  completely close them off with a small frame built around the windows and drywall and  soundproofing etc. I will not be scared to literally build a wall over the top of the windows if I need to. But that wont pass regulations if anybody was to find out.

 

I've dont some reading just now and it seems rooms to be habitable and pass spec need to have 10% of the floorspace as a window, which means I need to have at least a 2.3sq/m window area total. I am not sure if Council will approve windows missing from the front of the house, if they do, I wonder if its a better idea to put a row of windows down the side wall up as high as I am allowed and then work on some kind of removable plug system there...

 

The  best layout would mean the speaker and screen wall will need to be  sitting in front of the windows, which is a bit scary since I really want the room to have the best possible soundproofing given what I have  to work with, and my speakers are pretty huge. I plan on doing clip and channel in the whole room,  leaking sound to the rest of the house is much less a concern as leaking  sound to the exterior of the house. My family will be watching movies  together, so I dont have to worry about upstairs or anything.

 

Here is my rental house room right now, these speakers will be in the new house, except the centre channel will be a 3rd identical tower, and I will have all my subs up front on the soundstage since space outside of the screen wall will be super tight. 4x 18" Subs, 3x 2m tall modular towers, and 4x rear 8" MTM towers.

 

 

 

The  projector and rack gear will be in the study which is in the room behind it,  and I will cut a hole in the wall and build a cabinet in the study to  house the projector. The rack will also probably poke through the wall at the rear, But these cabinets will be soundproof with AC so its  got air and can breathe. I need to do this because I want to put the  largest screen I can in this room, and throw will become a problem, so  for me, I want the projector shooting through an opening in the wall. But I am not afraid to build an enclosure around this gear to make sure the effort I put into soundproofing the theatre is not lost here. I guess I could build some kind of soundproof cabinet door with MDF and GG and then seal it, acoustic foam inside, you name it.

 

The  demo home (we will be using a volume builder with tweaks to floorplan) looks like this right now but I will be closing it off and  making some changes, but the general dimensions are not changing much,  and that window is probably going to need to look something like it is  here, though I am going to try and get away with the smallest windows  which will pass code but also keeping in mind if in a few years I want  to sell the place, the room could be reverted back to some semblance of  normalcy without a massive deal of effort (for me that means not  bricking the windows up, all else is fair game).

 

Link for the home is here for those interested: https://www.mcdonaldjoneshomes.com.au/home-design/saxonvale

 

Demo home room looks like this:

Outside of the house, and that front room can be seen here:

 

SO, now that we know my speakers are not small. And that I need to have windows behind the sound-stage, and not bricks, am I completely screwed here with keeping any semblance of sound isolation and completely disturbing the neighbourhood. I understand clip and channel the way the rest of the room will be build would be approx STC 67, I would like to do what I can to keep that, am I dreaming? Is it possible to have a window plug with that level of STC?

 

Is having the front soundstage in front of the windows and the 'common wall' to the street actually a better idea than the other way around? Hear me out, I will be having a ton of gear all stacked up there, and I will be densely packing the space and creating almost an infinite baffle scenario when its done, so in that sense, wouldn't I actually be helping the cause and less actual sound energy is going to creep behind the speakers and outside through that wall? I know bass is omni, but if you have large cabinets in the way, there is obviously going to be less energy behind the actual speakers? The soundstage will be about 2.5ft deep, so, a fair bit of room to pack in dampening for the baffle wall.

 

Room ideas that I love:

Edited May 3, 2019 by Javs

[betty boop]

looks great javs... that you even have room thats remotely suitable ... something I see such a challenge for most homes built by the volume builders

 

re the front stage... I have to be honest as soon as I saw the plan the first thought was oh sh!t with speakers and front stage backing onto the street ! I can imagine too you WOULD not be holding back in any regards audio video wise. this really worries me.

 

flipping makes that door way a bit awkward. and would constrict front stage. not what I would want ! 

 

however here's a thought.... curtain off the window so from outside looks all normal... inside is it possible rather than brick off ...do a baffle wall frame and insulated for sound. I used some miracle stuff which is sold out from your way acoustiblok

 

http://www.acoustiblok.com.au/diy-installation-guide/

 

I would do frame wall along window.  acoustiblok both sides inside filled with CSR sound insulation wool. sound check on top of acoustiblok to seal off. they claim its effective as 300mm of concrete.. I used between our two daughters rooms as one was keeping up the other...

 

then speaker set in a baffle wall in front of that..

 

re wiring ... are you going slab or stumps ? I love stumps for cabling especially a dual story house ... makes so much easier for upgrades. when can go under the house to run cables.... alternative is cable channels that have plates on top and makes front back cabling an easy thing.

 

I had builder all lined up so I could cable at frame stage. gave me a date .... a weekend when got there and plasters had already been. not end of world but timing is everything.

 

I wouldnt be ripping plaster off. get done once and done right. you can specify anything as long as perfectly spec. its just what the volume builder is willing to work with you on. I found working with the foreman on site could do just about what needed rather than head office jockeys where all was too difficult. 

 

Id plan plan plan. have every detail worked out and timing. and will get there am sure. looks fantastic overall love that only went the one row ... and theres plenty room back if want to pull up a 2nd row of chairs for seats...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[betty boop]

ps @Marc I am pretty sure put a wall up or has done something with regards windows or is it garage but its street facing with front stage against ... and I believe his room is pretty well insulated and might be able to make some suggestions here re insulation. street wise.

[Javs]

9 minutes ago, betty boop said:

looks great javs... that you even have room thats remotely suitable ... something I see such a challenge for most homes built by the volume builders

 

re the front stage... I have to be honest as soon as I saw the plan the first thought was oh sh!t with speakers and front stage backing onto the street ! I can imagine too you WOULD not be holding back in any regards audio video wise. this really worries me.

 

flipping makes that door way a bit awkward. and would constrict front stage. not what I would want ! 

 

however here's a thought.... curtain off the window so from outside looks all normal... inside is it possible rather than brick off ...do a baffle wall frame and insulated for sound. I used some miracle stuff which is sold out from your way acoustiblok

 

http://www.acoustiblok.com.au/diy-installation-guide/

 

I would do frame wall along window.  acoustiblok both sides inside filled with CSR sound insulation wool. sound check on top of acoustiblok to seal off. they claim its effective as 300mm of concrete.. I used between our two daughters rooms as one was keeping up the other...

 

then speaker set in a baffle wall in front of that..

 

re wiring ... are you going slab or stumps ? I love stumps for cabling especially a dual story house ... makes so much easier for upgrades. when can go under the house to run cables.... alternative is cable channels that have plates on top and makes front back cabling an easy thing.

 

I had builder all lined up so I could cable at frame stage. gave me a date .... a weekend when got there and plasters had already been. not end of world but timing is everything.

 

I wouldnt be ripping plaster off. get done once and done right. you can specify anything as long as perfectly spec. its just what the volume builder is willing to work with you on. I found working with the foreman on site could do just about what needed rather than head office jockeys where all was too difficult. 

 

Id plan plan plan. have every detail worked out and timing. and will get there am sure. looks fantastic overall love that only went the one row ... and theres plenty room back if want to pull up a 2nd row of chairs for seats...

Thanks mate, so few things.

 

This is the original floorplan, but luckily they are open to changes, so I closed off the room, ate into the rear study a bit and deleted a couple things, I think its the only way it works. Hey, I gotta work with what I got.

 

This:

 

 

To This:

 

 

Actually I know it was a long post, but I did mention the concept of building over the top of the windows and putting a curtain or blind on the inside so when you are outside on the street it looks like a normal window with curtains or blinds drawn. I was imagining basically building a whole new drywall over the top of it sticking out a few inches and filling the inside with awesome acoustic insulation, even that vinyl you mention, I have seen that around, then double dry-walling and Green Glue too. The only thing that will then make the finished product different would be no bricks, the rest should be pretty much the same.

 

The interesting thing about the speakers being there... Thinking about it, if I have hundreds of KG's of speakers there pretty much blocking the space, certainly blocking the windows after the new plug is built and installed. I dont see how sound energy is going to actually get back there especially if I make it into an infinity baffle space. absolutely LOAD the space with insulation 3ft deep. As it is right now, if I stand behind my huge towers, or a subwoofer, I dont hear nearly as much noise back there as I do standing in front, or even 15 ft in front of it... I know Bass is Omni and is meant to flank, but if there is a cabinet 2m tall weighing over 100KG in the way, sound just doesn't really get back there so much. I am wondering if in this case while it looks scary, its probably going to be for the best? If I have the sound-stage the other side, I will be shooting cannonballs of bass and sound pressure right at the window full blast with almost nothing to stop it.

 

Hmmm, its definitely an interesting thought.

 

The house is on a slab. No way around that. So, the room will be totally treated for sound isolation as a square set room, then I am going to build a soffit system myself which wont require sound proofing since its already done, which will have all the cabling running around the ceiling through a large PVC pipe rather than through the floor. Even though there is one row of seating we want to build a riser which will also act as a giant bass absorber. So that will have a powerpoint for seats etc.

 

My only other concern which the builders probably wont get is I need to build a pretty hectic AC In / Out system and deadvent thing, that needs to be completely soundproof too.

 

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing_101/the-dead-vent

 

yeah one row, we really thought about this, wife wants a thin bar at the rear, shes a bit more casual than me, so 4 seats is fine for us and a couple guests, and **** can just sit back there drinking wine if there is more... its realistic. The room gets cramped with two rows. This is a small room, but I want the space to feel roomy when its all done, so will have to be one row of 4 seats. All said and done after screen wall the space will probably only be 5mx4m so not much there. The screenwall will be at least 70cm deep to house my speakers and keep 10inches or so of gap for the screen and not have issues with speaker too close to fabric.

 

Plan Plan Plan is right, thats why I start a thread a year early!

[betty boop]

with windows too you can go double glazed... every bit helps ...

 

I also think setting of the house and where neighbours are helps...

 

I've not had one complaint in all the years been in our place ... and lounge room does face street. though windows not in firing line but plenty of them !  

[Javs]

2 minutes ago, betty boop said:

with windows too you can go double glazed... every bit helps ...

 

I also think setting of the house and where neighbours are helps...

 

I've not had one complaint in all the years been in our place ... and lounge room does face street. though windows not in firing line but plenty of them !  

Double glazed might not be good idea. On its own, yeah, but not with other solutions...

 

There is a thing called triple leaf effect which is bad. Basically if I have double glazed then soundproofing you will create a resonance in that space... You only want two hard surfaces in any one application of sound proofing. Double glazing will create 3.

 

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing_101/triple-leaf-effect

 

[betty boop]

Just now, Javs said:

Double glazed might not be good idea. On its own, yeah, but not with other solutions...

 

There is a thing called triple leaf effect which is bad. Basically if I have double glazed then soundproofing you will create a resonance in that space... You only want two hard surfaces in any one application of sound proofing. Double glazing will create 3.

 

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing_101/triple-leaf-effect

 

this is something which is a concern. you dont want your concrete bunker... ie all insulated ! just creates reflections and problems have to deal with.

 

things like the acoustiblok though soak in as does sound insulation. and disperse the energy that ways rather than reflect ie act as a hard surface  as a concrete wall would (bunker approach) 

[Javs]

13 minutes ago, betty boop said:

this is something which is a concern. you dont want your concrete bunker... ie all insulated ! just creates reflections and problems have to deal with.

 

things like the acoustiblok though soak in as does sound insulation. and disperse the energy that ways rather than reflect ie act as a hard surface  as a concrete wall would (bunker approach) 

Al, I am doing clip and channel walls mate. Its not a bunker, all the walls will flex. Not a concern at all.

 

Acoustiblok is actually not that good. Green Glue is a far better product.

 

Acoustiblok:

 

 

Falls apart in the bass zone. I am truing to find STC data on the clip and channel wall with greenglue, is used to be on that site im looking at, all I can find right now is clip and channel with no green glue and its significantly stronger than any kind of product like acoustiblok.

 

Check out the number for 125hz, and 500, then compare to Acoustiblok above. Drastic difference mate.

 

Both acoustiblok and green glue are viscoelastic. They do the same thing, one much better than the other though.

 

Clip and Channel wall.

 

 

Greenglue added to the above only makes it much better, especially in the bass region.

 

A concrete bunker would be good! Sound Isolation, THEN sound treatment on the inside.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Javs

[betty boop]

acousti block works as a system ie not on own, but with plaster and sound insulation. I'd never use on own or measure on own infact they dont even recommend just use on own as will be ineffective on own  I dont now if come across acoutibloc but its basically a VERY heavy TAR/rubber  like sheet. We are talking seriously heavy sheets that come in a roll. I'd compare more to the stinger road kill, dynamat type products than green glue.  I found the guys great to talk to, plenty of free advice. they have been used on some projects my way. hence knew about them. not suggesting you have to use. use what ever wish. not pushing it in anywise just suggested as a system something worked for me in noise control for a stud wall between rooms.

 

not suggesting in the least you are doing a bunker... was just agreeing that have to be careful of reflective. ie what a bunker does. and then have to deal with issues. better to absorb which sounds like your approach.  as far as Bass is a tough one... it leaks and creeps through most things goes through structures and such. there are people here who have done room within room but the cost and efforts ...

[WasM]

Javs - as a suggestion about getting your trade(s) in to work with your builder, you'd want to clarify the liability and insurance position. I'm assuming the builder is still fully responsible for insuring the house under construction, thus they will be at risk for allowing you and your trades to work inside during that time. Something to discuss and carefully seek guidance on the terms. I went and got separate insurance to cover my trades whilst they worked in 'tandem' with the builder's trades. Double dipped insurance but just not worth the risk. From memory I forked out around $1800 to cover about $180,000 worth of work... so factor in about 1%.

[Javs]

49 minutes ago, betty boop said:

acousti block works as a system ie not on own, but with plaster and sound insulation. I'd never use on own or measure on own infact they dont even recommend just use on own as will be ineffective on own  I dont now if come across acoutibloc but its basically a VERY heavy TAR/rubber  like sheet. We are talking seriously heavy sheets that come in a roll. I'd compare more to the stinger road kill, dynamat type products than green glue.  I found the guys great to talk to, plenty of free advice. they have been used on some projects my way. hence knew about them. not suggesting you have to use. use what ever wish. not pushing it in anywise just suggested as a system something worked for me in noise control for a stud wall between rooms.

 

not suggesting in the least you are doing a bunker... was just agreeing that have to be careful of reflective. ie what a bunker does. and then have to deal with issues. better to absorb which sounds like your approach.  as far as Bass is a tough one... it leaks and creeps through most things goes through structures and such. there are people here who have done room within room but the cost and efforts ...

Yeah thanks Al.

 

Clip and Channel is as close to room within room as doing double stud. We are talking about the same thing though end of the day mate, mass loaded vinyl which is what Acoustiblok is, is an alternative to greenglue and double drywall. Thats the MASS part.  The flex part is the clip and channel system.  The walls will absorb energy..

 

 

 

This is the best there is:

 

This is what I am doing

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Javs

[Javs]

20 minutes ago, WasM said:

Javs - as a suggestion about getting your trade(s) in to work with your builder, you'd want to clarify the liability and insurance position. I'm assuming the builder is still fully responsible for insuring the house under construction, thus they will be at risk for allowing you and your trades to work inside during that time. Something to discuss and carefully seek guidance on the terms. I went and got separate insurance to cover my trades whilst they worked in 'tandem' with the builder's trades. Double dipped insurance but just not worth the risk. From memory I forked out around $1800 to cover about $180,000 worth of work... so factor in about 1%.

Thanks,

 

Yeah I've had this discussion with them, its HIGHLY unlikely I will be allowed to have another builder come in at the same time as the guys making the rest of the house because of the insurance you mention and its just policy generally - have to use their builders, I knew that, which is why I was thinking of just getting them to do the bare minimum to pass occupancy in that room, and then have someone come and do it properly. If it meant wasting $1000 in drywall that has to be ripped out so be it. The room is permanent, a small sting to get it done right is temporary.

 

I wont even be allowed to be there to oversee things due to the insurance you mention, and for this room, thats a MUST, so its likely what I will need to do.

 

Anyway, whatever does happen is sure as hell going to be in writing before the slab is even poured.

[WasM]

24 minutes ago, Javs said:

Thanks,

 

Yeah I've had this discussion with them, its HIGHLY unlikely I will be allowed to have another builder come in at the same time as the guys making the rest of the house because of the insurance you mention and its just policy generally - have to use their builders, I knew that, which is why I was thinking of just getting them to do the bare minimum to pass occupancy in that room, and then have someone come and do it properly. If it meant wasting $1000 in drywall that has to be ripped out so be it. The room is permanent, a small sting to get it done right is temporary.

 

I wont even be allowed to be there to oversee things due to the insurance you mention, and for this room, thats a MUST, so its likely what I will need to do.

 

Anyway, whatever does happen is sure as hell going to be in writing before the slab is even poured.

Always happy to make suggestions and give options.

I suggest you ask them not to put up the drywall/cornices and maybe some ceiling? and ask for a return of the small funds, or you keep the material and have it not installed. Unless there are fully exposed electrical work it should satisfy occupancy requirements.

Regarding getting another builder to do the rework - assuming you aren't doing any structural change would you not consider to undertake the works yourself and hire trades? You'd save on the builder rate and markup, presuming you have the time and patience. It may also depend on local laws, I'm in WA so can't offer any advice on DIY risk and obligations specific to NSW and your council. Food for thought.

 

Regarding the AC/ducting - liaise with the builder or A/C subcontractor about the penetration and fitment for a 'zone box'. When I designed my house I allowed for a 500x500 penetration from upper slab to allow a 'box' to be recessed into the ceiling space. A zone damper feeds the box, which then splits into two x 300 oval R2 duct. Each end terminates into separate long rectangular profile vents in the ceiling. This was for my ~7x4.5m room. You could go smaller for your room. I don't hear anything from my ducted A/C or zone damper.

 

GL with the design.

[Javs]

41 minutes ago, WasM said:

Always happy to make suggestions and give options.

I suggest you ask them not to put up the drywall/cornices and maybe some ceiling? and ask for a return of the small funds, or you keep the material and have it not installed. Unless there are fully exposed electrical work it should satisfy occupancy requirements.

Regarding getting another builder to do the rework - assuming you aren't doing any structural change would you not consider to undertake the works yourself and hire trades? You'd save on the builder rate and markup, presuming you have the time and patience. It may also depend on local laws, I'm in WA so can't offer any advice on DIY risk and obligations specific to NSW and your council. Food for thought.

 

Regarding the AC/ducting - liaise with the builder or A/C subcontractor about the penetration and fitment for a 'zone box'. When I designed my house I allowed for a 500x500 penetration from upper slab to allow a 'box' to be recessed into the ceiling space. A zone damper feeds the box, which then splits into two x 300 oval R2 duct. Each end terminates into separate long rectangular profile vents in the ceiling. This was for my ~7x4.5m room. You could go smaller for your room. I don't hear anything from my ducted A/C or zone damper.

 

GL with the design.

Thanks mate all good tips.

 

Yeah I will ask about not completing the drywall and just framing, from memory they said it wouldnt pass occupancy test.  But I am sure I might be able to worth with them there to do the least possible, mayube they just drywall around the electrical points and thats it, and I can just pull it out when I do the work.

 

And yeah I would be hiring trades to do the small / large jobs not do the whole thing. I will DIY most of it, but I dont want to do drywall and painting etc, carpet...

[br0d0]

I don't know how far along you are with McDJ but GJ Gardner work with Boral for plastering, I believe, and they do provide a sound proofing option. I haven't built with them so don't know how thorough or expensive it is but it looks promising for a volume builder.

 

https://www.usgboral.com/en_au/solutions/plasterboard-systems/cinemazone-sound-reducing-system.html

[Javs]

9 hours ago, br0d0 said:

I don't know how far along you are with McDJ but GJ Gardner work with Boral for plastering, I believe, and they do provide a sound proofing option. I haven't built with them so don't know how thorough or expensive it is but it looks promising for a volume builder.

 

https://www.usgboral.com/en_au/solutions/plasterboard-systems/cinemazone-sound-reducing-system.html

Thanks,

 

Yeah I am def going McDonald Jones.

[Zinzan]

Have McDonald Jones agreed to do the clips and channel work?

 

and good to hear about a fellow coastie with an A/V obsession.

 

we are also building on the central coast this year, but ended up going with Hotondo Homes ... they have been very accommodating to do the movie room exactly how I want (clips, channel, plywood, greenglue, gyprock).  It’s priced in as a customisation in the contract but they’re handling it - and actually have shown a lot of interest/learning something new. 

 

McDJ and some others when we were looking at dif plans/builders gave blank stares and not really interested.

 

Ive ripped gyprock off before to build up a soundproofed room and it’s really not fun! Much easier if you get it done as part of the build. 

 

For the A/C... we’ve specified an incoming and return air vent capability... the idea is for these to drop into the room where a future bulkhead will go...the air run and vents into the actual room will be completed at the time the bulkhead is built (so Hotondo won’t be finishing the room, ie I’ll add a bulkhead in later but that’s ok because the fitout and interiors I want for the room will have to be finished in a year or two down the track).

 

let me know if you want to compare notes about the coast, builders etc!!

[Javs]

21 minutes ago, Zinzan said:

Have McDonald Jones agreed to do the clips and channel work?

 

and good to hear about a fellow coastie with an A/V obsession.

 

we are also building on the central coast this year, but ended up going with Hotondo Homes ... they have been very accommodating to do the movie room exactly how I want (clips, channel, plywood, greenglue, gyprock).  It’s priced in as a customisation in the contract but they’re handling it - and actually have shown a lot of interest/learning something new. 

 

McDJ and some others when we were looking at dif plans/builders gave blank stares and not really interested.

 

Ive ripped gyprock off before to build up a soundproofed room and it’s really not fun! Much easier if you get it done as part of the build. 

 

For the A/C... we’ve specified an incoming and return air vent capability... the idea is for these to drop into the room where a future bulkhead will go...the air run and vents into the actual room will be completed at the time the bulkhead is built (so Hotondo won’t be finishing the room, ie I’ll add a bulkhead in later but that’s ok because the fitout and interiors I want for the room will have to be finished in a year or two down the track).

 

let me know if you want to compare notes about the coast, builders etc!!

Thanks man!

 

I am not quite there with a full on tender with McDonald Jones just yet, I have a preliminary one from them, they know about the room because we sat down and tried to troubleshoot how to do it with the floorplan. But only got as far as physically fitting the size that works for me in the space.

 

I have spoken with Hotondo a few times previously (all of them actually), but the Como 390 is probably the closest plan I would build, but that front living room is not really condusive to what I wanna do, (I would flip the study and living so the theatre is not the front room for one) but I would need to both widen and extend the house, which is not really easy on my plot as mine is only 15m and extensions sideways past that and the plan I chose wont really work due to building height.  Also they come out a fair bit more expensive than MDJ for square size. We looked at the Saxonville at homeworld and we really loved all the MDJ houses we looked at, we took a drive up to Newcastle too and looked there. Essentially we thought the Saxonville was perfect. Was really well done. Almost went with Tullipan but they are $$$.

 

I guess I will have to put it to them that I would like it done at build. Or put something in the contract to say that I can have people come and do that part... The guy I am dealing with is really knowledgeable, and seems to be more of a 'yes' man than most of the people we have chatted with, and he was pretty no BS. He did say they can do soundproofing etc but I dont think he understood just how much I want to do, but I think that's a conversation for a bit later when we go down the path of actually paying a design fee to include the modifications we have done internally, because there is a lot of them. Almost the entire upstairs is different, we have half the floor for our Master essentially.

 

Laura at Hotondo is awesome though when I have spoken with her a few times, shes super helpful.

 

What area are you building in? I will be in the new Glades development in Glenning Valley. We live in a rental right now in Berkeley Vale.

 

I hear you regarding ripping drywall out, that's definitely a last resort I guess. Your idea on the incoming and return being lined up for a bulk head is just about exactly what I would like to do.

 

Curious, where you planning on sourcing your clips and channel etc from? I would definitely like to keep in touch with those details. Seems the Rotul Australian equivalents to the Soundproofing company products are a little different. All different sizing. I am basing my STC ratings and such from the US company, so I hope I can find an option here with availability (furring channels etc) which performs as good.

[Red Spade Audio]

Your modified plan is a clear improvement over the original. I would orient the room just as you have as it's by far the best layout.

 

On 03/05/2019 at 11:48 AM, Javs said:

 

The interesting thing about the speakers being there... Thinking about it, if I have hundreds of KG's of speakers there pretty much blocking the space, certainly blocking the windows after the new plug is built and installed. I dont see how sound energy is going to actually get back there especially if I make it into an infinity baffle space. absolutely LOAD the space with insulation 3ft deep. As it is right now, if I stand behind my huge towers, or a subwoofer, I dont hear nearly as much noise back there as I do standing in front, or even 15 ft in front of it... I know Bass is Omni and is meant to flank, but if there is a cabinet 2m tall weighing over 100KG in the way, sound just doesn't really get back there so much. I am wondering if in this case while it looks scary, its probably going to be for the best? If I have the sound-stage the other side, I will be shooting cannonballs of bass and sound pressure right at the window full blast with almost nothing to stop it.

 

Quote

Is having the front soundstage in front of the windows and the 'common wall' to the street actually a better idea than the other way around? Hear me out, I will be having a ton of gear all stacked up there, and I will be densely packing the space and creating almost an infinite baffle scenario when its done, so in that sense, wouldn't I actually be helping the cause and less actual sound energy is going to creep behind the speakers and outside through that wall? I know bass is omni, but if you have large cabinets in the way, there is obviously going to be less energy behind the actual speakers? The soundstage will be about 2.5ft deep, so, a fair bit of room to pack in dampening for the baffle wall. 

 

Intuition and observation often work against you with acoustics. Often there are a few things going on at the same time. Yes, bass is omni but it's also modal. Hence, you need the speaker outdoors to appreciate the dispersion without room effects obscuring the picture.

No matter how you build your baffle wall or how much fill you use, its impact on sound isolation is not very significant in the most critical bass region. Keep in mind that if you create a sealed cavity, you can accidentally engage the triple leaf effect with respect to your front wall.

 

When you consider your front wall, keep in mind it's also about keeping external noise out.

 

The location of your speakers isn't significant in sound isolation terms. I'd call that good news as you can focus on how you prefer to lay out your room.

Looks like a great system and room in the making!

[Javs]

Your modified plan is a clear improvement over the original. I would orient the room just as you have as it's by far the best layout.
 
 
Intuition and observation often work against you with acoustics. Often there are a few things going on at the same time. Yes, bass is omni but it's also modal. Hence, you need the speaker outdoors to appreciate the dispersion without room effects obscuring the picture.

No matter how you build your baffle wall or how much fill you use, its impact on sound isolation is not very significant in the most critical bass region. Keep in mind that if you create a sealed cavity, you can accidentally engage the triple leaf effect with respect to your front wall.
 
When you consider your front wall, keep in mind it's also about keeping external noise out.
 
The location of your speakers isn't significant in sound isolation terms. I'd call that good news as you can focus on how you prefer to lay out your room.

Looks like a great system and room in the making!

Thanks. Yeah the screen baffle wall is not actually a solid wall. It's a couple posts with fabric panels over it so no worry of triple leaf effect. The speakers are going to be surrounded by deep acoustic insulation where there is any void. I've been modelling the room dimensions including the screen wall as in, assuming it's acoustically invisible because it will be.

Or are you suggesting that if the speaker stack is so large and wide that in itself may induce triple leaf effect? I guess that makes sense as a possibility.

I will be reading every build thread on AVS over the next year, already been doing so in the past couple years and have quite a lot of insight from over there too.

[Red Spade Audio]

16 hours ago, Javs said:

Thanks. Yeah the screen baffle wall is not actually a solid wall. It's a couple posts with fabric panels over it so no worry of triple leaf effect. The speakers are going to be surrounded by deep acoustic insulation where there is any void. I've been modelling the room dimensions including the screen wall as in, assuming it's acoustically invisible because it will be.

Or are you suggesting that if the speaker stack is so large and wide that in itself may induce triple leaf effect? I guess that makes sense as a possibility.

I will be reading every build thread on AVS over the next year, already been doing so in the past couple years and have quite a lot of insight from over there too.
 

It sounds like your baffle wall is actually more like a big bass trap that essentially fills in the void between the speakers, with no actual reflective membrane on the front. It's a great opportunity to get in a big bass trap. You might consider also using fairly dense panels in front, like rigid fibreglass (48kg/m3) or any of the polyester options in a similar density. They hold their shape well and stand on their own without a frame. In fact, you can stand up a full 1.2 x 2.4m 50mm thick panel and it won't collapse like fluffy insulation. A little velcro can easily attach them to a frame.

 

My triple leaf comment only applies where your baffle wall has a sealed and solid reflective membrane with a cavity behind. Otherwise it makes no sense at all!

 

 

[Guest Peter the Greek]

Quote

The flex part is the clip and channel system.

 

I'm 99% sure flex from the clips and channel doesn't damp in the same manner as GG.

 

Are you DIY'ing the soundproofing? that MLV board is HEAVY. Its easier to handle gyprock and GG....thought I'd mention it.

 

Good luck with the build, looks great!

Edited May 8, 2019 by Peter the Greek

[Guest Peter the Greek]

17 hours ago, Javs said:

The speakers are going to be surrounded by deep acoustic insulation where there is any void.

I've heard the pro's condemn this approach in the past. I'll try to dig up a post why. Have you read the Acoustic Frontiers article on baffle walls?

 

" Over a certain thickness even low density pink fluffy fiberglass becomes internally reflective (as in you increase the depth but absorption DECREASES). That effect is due to GFR or gas flow resistivity. "

 

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322baffle-walls/

[Javs]

I've heard the pro's condemn this approach in the past. I'll try to dig up a post why. Have you read the Acoustic Frontiers article on baffle walls?
 
" Over a certain thickness even low density pink fluffy fiberglass becomes internally reflective (as in you increase the depth but absorption DECREASES). That effect is due to GFR or gas flow resistivity. "
 
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322baffle-walls/

The depth of the void is about 55cm. I don't see in your post where they put a limit on that?

Also. There is a hard wall behind it, if there is nothing there, it's going to reflect, if there is something there and it goes through 1ft or so then reflects, I don't get the issue here? This is similar to superchunk bass traps in the corners, the depth is relatively similar ?

By having something there I end up with absorbtion in some way rather than none at all.

[Javs]

The flex part is the clip and channel system.

 
I'm 99% sure flex from the clips and channel doesn't damp in the same manner as GG.
 
Are you DIY'ing the soundproofing? that MLV board is HEAVY. Its easier to handle gyprock and GG....thought I'd mention it.
 
Good luck with the build, looks great!
I wont be mounting drywall myself, no.

Whats mlv board?

Did you see the images I posted. There are articles on soundproofing company website if you want to read up on how the clip and channel system works in relation to greenglue.