Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Music2496 said: Noted but I've asked for this 16M filter to come to the PCM up-sampling option too... 16M on 16 bits is a lot more processing power than 16M on 1 bit. 16M on 1 bit is pretty much equivalent to the 1M sinc taps PCM filter. That's not to say he can't do it... and if he does then it basically is close to what I've been experimenting with, as I found 15M was needed to create that magic. Should be interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Ittaku said: 16M on 16 bits is a lot more processing power than 16M on 1 bit. 16M on 1 bit is pretty much equivalent to the 1M sinc taps PCM filter. That's not to say he can't do it... and if he does then it basically is close to what I've been experimenting with, as I found 15M was needed to create that magic. Should be interesting... He doesn't limit filter options based on end users's processing power, although he offers lower power options (two stage up-sampling options, compared with single stage). There are some filters in HQP that require the help (CUDA offloading) of an NVidia RTX 2080 GPU to work at DSD512 (single stage up-sampling, not two stage). My NUC7i7DNHE can't use those DSD filters at DSD512 but that's my problem, not the problem of the HQPlayer developer to worry about... Then of course, HQPlayer supports multi-channel up-sampling, for those using it for DSP cross-over etc, where you need the serious grunt also. It's all well thought out... Edited March 5, 2019 by Music2496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Music2496 said: He doesn't limit filter options based on end users's processing power, although he offers lower power options (stage stage up-sampling options, compared with single stage). There are some filters in HQP that require the help (CUDA offloading) of an NVidia RTX 2080 GPU to work at DSD512 (single stage up-sampling, not two stage). My NUC7i7DNHE can't use those DSD filters at DSD512 but that's my problem, not the problem of the HQPlayer developer to worry about... Then of course, HQPlayer supports multi-channel up-sampling, for those using it for DSP cross-over etc, where you need the serious grunt also. It's all well thought out... Yes I've seen the software and played with it. I have no problems with the quality of the software or what it does and I think it's very good. I'd just like to do more myself with my existing software know how, but ideally make hardware that anyone can use - that's the pipe dream. A plug in device like the m-scaler that works on any hardware to its max limits would be great, and knowing the hardware involved it should cost half what the m-scaler does even after mark up... Edited March 5, 2019 by Ittaku 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Ittaku said: but ideally make hardware that anyone can use Nice... As previously mentioned, this already exists with HQPlayer: https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/audio-server/products/sonictransporter-roon-server-hqplayer?variant=21739021508 No DIY skills required with this solution, which features an i7-8700. It ships ready to rock and roll and is configurable and updatable, all via web GUI... really nice solution. Comes to under half the price of M-Scaler too, even imported... And is fanless, so audibly silent. Something that works seconds after being powered on would be fantastic... just like the sonicTransporter i7. Probably would need to be Linux OS based not Windows? Edited March 5, 2019 by Music2496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Music2496 said: If I were you, something that works seconds after being powered on would be fantastic... just like the sonicTransporter i7. Probably would need to be Linux OS based not Windows? Well I'm a linux kernel developer so I wouldn't dream of using anything else... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Ittaku said: Well I'm a linux kernel developer so I wouldn't dream of using anything else... Fantastic. When you mention half the price of M-Scaler, I assume this means you've already thought about required hardware to do PCM up-sampling 15M taps on the fly? What hardware specs are you thinking? Initial thoughts anyway. Edited March 5, 2019 by Music2496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, Music2496 said: Fantastic. When you mention half the price of M-Scaler, I assume this means you've already thought about required hardware to do PCM up-sampling 15M taps on the fly? What hardware specs are you thinking? Initial thoughts anyway. Probably an Intel NUC core i3 8109U with 32GB ram is enough processing power and ram to do what I want. Xmos XU216 should do for the usb conversion which supports up to 768kHz PCM and DSD1024... The storage part I haven't thought about per se. That's a lot of processing power and still under $1k in parts so far. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ittaku said: Probably an Intel NUC core i3 8109U with 32GB ram is enough processing power and ram to do what I want. Xmos XU216 should do for the usb conversion which supports up to 768kHz PCM and DSD1024... The storage part I haven't thought about per se. That's a lot of processing power and still under $1k in parts so far. If you're thinking about local storage, then you're thinking about your own playback software? When you say the dream is USB in, USB out hardware, this means people can also use their existing USB output streamer/computer and therefore the software of their choice? That would be a good thing. HQP Embedded supports Roon, UPnP and any TOSlink source, so the choices of software are vast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Music2496 said: Probably an Intel NUC core i3 8109U with 32GB ram is enough processing power and ram to do what I want. And what kind of playback delay would you expect, for 15M taps on the fly up-sampling? Seconds? Tens of seconds? Have you calculated or is this something that you would need to test? Edited March 5, 2019 by Music2496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Music2496 said: And what kind of playback delay would you expect, for 15M taps on the fly up-sampling? Seconds? Tens of seconds? Have you calculated or is this something that you would need to test? About 10 seconds lag. It's a simple equation relating filter length to latency that has nothing to do with processing power unfortunately. Buffered data is much better in this regard, but such a device wouldn't be agnostic of other hardware and is more suited to being a network renderer. Edited March 5, 2019 by Ittaku 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Music2496 said: If you're thinking about local storage, then you're thinking about your own playback software? When you say the dream is USB in, USB out hardware, this means people can also use their existing USB output streamer/computer and therefore the software of their choice? That would be a good thing. HQP Embedded supports Roon, UPnP and any TOSlink source, so the choices of software are vast. The storage is irrelevant I mean. It will be a device that's intentionally agnostic to what's upstream and downstream and have nothing to do with playback software. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 25 minutes ago, Ittaku said: About 10 seconds lag. Nice. I wouldn't have an issue with that. 20+ seconds is probably too annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 28 minutes ago, Ittaku said: The storage is irrelevant I mean. It will be a device that's intentionally agnostic to what's upstream and downstream and have nothing to do with playback software. Does this mean that if the playback software is capable of gapless playback (like with a live album), then the 10 seconds delay is really just the initial delay... and there wouldn't be a 10 second delay between tracks? (again, assuming the playback software itself is capable of gapless playback). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 Just now, Music2496 said: Does this mean that if the playback software is capable of gapless playback (like with a live album), then the 10 seconds delay is really just the initial delay... and there wouldn't be a 10 second delay between tracks? (again, assuming the playback software itself is capable of gapless playback). Yes. It should only be an issue when stopping/starting playback or changing sample rate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Ittaku said: Yes. It should only be an issue when stopping/starting playback or changing sample rate. Excellent. Would a NUC7i7DNHE's i7-8650U CPU (very good performance for low power consumption) cut this 10 seconds down by much? Or not much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Ittaku said: About 10 seconds lag. It's a simple equation relating filter length to latency that has nothing to do with processing power unfortunately. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Ittaku said: About 10 seconds lag. It's a simple equation relating filter length to latency that has nothing to do with processing power unfortunately. Thanks, this makes sense. I can't say I'm in the market for a ~ $3k i3 up-sampling box but maybe a software solution where I can use my exisiting hardware might be of interest to me at some point. Best of luck with it and hats off to you for wanting to give it a go. Edited March 5, 2019 by Music2496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.dent Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 5 hours ago, Music2496 said: 2014 Mac Mini? I'm not saying this is supposed to perform/sound exactly like M-Scaler, but not everyone that's heard M-Scaler loves it... there been quite a few put up for sale over on Head-Fi forum... overseas of course. The beauty with HQPlayer is you have a vast array of filters to choose from. Leave dither as Gauss1 all the time. And auto rate family always enabled. Give poly-sinc a try. Also give poly-sinc-short-mp a try (that's more like Ayre/Meridian/MQA - minimum phase, slow roll-off). Ted Smith loves linear phase and extremely slow roll-off, so give poly-sinc-short a try (without the -mp is linear phase). And which DAC are you using, out of interest? I wish it was a 2014! I've tried most of the filters. poly-sinc-short-mp sounds OK but I've found Roon alone with no DSP straight into my Accuphase DP-560 is still the best. Maybe I just need a more powerful server. I have a relatively new i7 NUC that I'll try again with Linux, Roon and HQ Player. Maybe the sinc-M will be the best when it's being converted without stutters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, a.dent said: I have a relatively new i7 NUC that I'll try again with Linux, That'll work for sure, especially with PCM up-sampling. My NUC7i7DNHE can even do poly-sinc-ext2 at DSD512 (it always functions as two stage up-sampling, so is a lot more CPU friendly than single stage). There are several filters my NUC can't do though at DSD512 (or higher), that need the help of an expensive GPU (CUDA offloading). There's no guarantee you'll love sinc-M or any of the HQP filters, just like there's no guarantee everyone loves M-Scaler (quite a few have been listed for sale on Head-Fi Forum..). But definitely worth a try if you can. Trial is free and is fully featured. Edited March 5, 2019 by Music2496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand129678 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, a.dent said: but I've found Roon alone with no DSP straight into my Accuphase DP-560 is still the best. And the better DACs generally have high quality digital filtering already and this is a top notch DAC/SACD player. Edited March 5, 2019 by Music2496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 Bought a whole lot of parts to build this standalone monstrosity prototype version. Unfortunately some parts will take up to a month to arrive so everything goes on hold again till then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereophilus Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 This thread is moving in the direction of my thinking, so I will post here, after consideration, and apologies to the OP. There is a theory that using on-the-fly upsampling in a computer, connected via USB to the DAC, can introduce noise into the DAC, thereby negatively influencing SQ. This potentially offsets some of the gains from the upsampling process. This argument is used to explain why dedicated servers (eg Aurender, Innuous, etc) sound better (to some people) than using something like a Mac mini. If true, this may go some way to explaining the M-scaler’s position in the marketplace in not offering USB output, and using an FPGA (which can generate noise, but less than a modern microprocessor). Anyway, my current situation allows me to offer some context to this. I am using Antipodes CX+EX solution as a linked server + renderer. By seperating server from renderer, and linking the 2 units with galvaically isolated Ethernet cable, it is possible to (theoretically) limit upsampling (and other) noise generated in a server from reaching the DAC. I mention this here I am interested in seeing if software based upsampling (as described here), can improve the internal upsampling found in my Mola Mola DAC. I would value any thoughts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 Isn’t there another thread about up sampling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 13 hours ago, Ittaku said: Be aware that the way windows records CPU usage means 35% includes 35% of all cores, meaning if it counts your CPU as 5 cores, then one core is completely maxed out. There are many single threaded parts to the upscaling process and you're probably just hitting the limits of your CPU I'm afraid. I have been doing a quick search on eBay for 2nd hand alternatives that would fit in my system and not cost an arm or leg. Although getting a bit long in the tooth one such is the HP Elite 8200 that comes in 2 possibilities: Intel Core i5-2500 3.3 GHz for around $150. Intel Core i7-2600 3.40 GHz for around $300. Does anyone have any idea whether either of these might do the HQplayer sinc-M without stuttering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 37 minutes ago, legend said: I have been doing a quick search on eBay for 2nd hand alternatives that would fit in my system and not cost an arm or leg. Although getting a bit long in the tooth one such is the HP Elite 8200 that comes in 2 possibilities: Intel Core i5-2500 3.3 GHz for around $150. Intel Core i7-2600 3.40 GHz for around $300. Does anyone have any idea whether either of these might do the HQplayer sinc-M without stuttering? They should both be capable but then I can't really speak for how CPU efficient the HQplayer filter is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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